If not rubbermaid brute, then what?

Asterix · 02/01/2010, 05:53 PM

Hi all

With so much recent controversy about brute trash cans for water storage, I am wondering what other options are available? I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I wanted to hear your thoughts. In case you hadn't heard, some guy (forget who) reported that the brute trash can interfered with some type of marine organism reproduction (I believe it was coral larvae but I could be wrong). Despite this, I just picked up another (new stock) brute can to use...I was wondering if perhaps using a liner would help?

OK, (edit) I just googled the article, here it is
"beware of brute trash cans"
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101230-9-1.aspx

What do you think we should do?

NasotheHutt · 02/01/2010, 06:36 PM

I was looking at these.....

http://www.watertanks.com/category/122/

dwd5813 · 02/01/2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NasotheHutt

I was looking at these.....

http://www.watertanks.com/category/122/

seems cheaper to just use another aquarium

ChadTheSpike · 02/01/2010, 06:47 PM

^agree,
I just swapped my longtime rubbermaid brute trashcan sump with a 75 gallon glass tank. Cost was obviously more than the brute, but now I get to have a 50 gallon seagrass sump

fish_taste_good · 02/01/2010, 06:51 PM

Interesting. Never knew someone had an issue with a Brute.

I only mix water in mine so I am not worried at all regarding it.

Weird how the article is on a major retailer's site though, even if EB wrote it.

1DeR9_3Hy · 02/01/2010, 06:58 PM

I use a glass aquarium as well....no leaching here

RBU1 · 02/01/2010, 06:59 PM

I have been using brute cans for years.....Never had a problem. I think you are fine.

ChadTheSpike · 02/01/2010, 07:05 PM

To clarify, I didnt change mine because I had a problem with it... or because I had read the article on the MD forums.

That being said, I wouldnt expect the average reefer to have a problem with them either... The problems that were cited were with very small organisms (gametes in this case), so unless you're raising fry, or collecting gametes or something like that, I wouldnt expect an issue. I used mine for 10+ years without issue.

I would go ahead and use it.

Anemone0524 · 02/01/2010, 07:34 PM

now another thing i have to worry about.

Common sense would say that mixing saltwater in it over a short period of time might be fine.

However, the days of me storing RO/DI water in these cans are over.

RBU1 · 02/01/2010, 07:39 PM

Well I have a local connection that sells food grade 55 gallon barrells. Maybe I will hit him up for a couple......

Logzor · 02/01/2010, 07:52 PM

Is there a safe spraypaint or epoxy that you could coat the inside of a brute can?

LobsterOfJustice · 02/01/2010, 08:17 PM

I work in a university lab captive breeding fish, we mix our saltwater in brute cans. Thousands of people out there use them, don't worry about it.

LobsterOfJustice · 02/01/2010, 08:22 PM

Ugh, just read the "article", er post... also says instant ocean leads to chronic problems, and to avoid all bendable plastics.

FWIW, in addition to the marine ornamental fish breeding lab listed above using these, I am using these for storage of my RODI and saltwater and have gobies and cleaner shrimp regularly spawning in my tank.

Imzadi · 02/01/2010, 08:23 PM

Go to a farm supply store. They have many options and sizes of food grade containers. It is what they are made for... 45 gallon drums are available... used too... but you have to worry about what they were used for.

The Brutes? Well, they were made to hold garbage, were they not? The regulations are not there to keep them safe for anything except garbage.

noahm · 02/01/2010, 08:46 PM

Unfortunately, that article has been going around for a while and puts the fear in people. As stated above, lots and lots and lots of people have been successfully using them for a very long time even in lab situations where breeding is necessary. I believe it was determined to be an isolated, anecdotal experience. Use your brute, but rinse it first.

It reminds me of the 'Saccharin causes cancer' issue back in the 80s because some study showed that it caused cancer in rats.....except nobody mentioned that it was a human equivalent dose of 600 cans of soda per day. I don't know of a single person ever, including the author of the article, that had a problem with keeping a happy reef using a brute container for water storage.

NasotheHutt · 02/02/2010, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwd5813

seems cheaper to just use another aquarium

Yeah, I was looking that the 31G for $81. That seemed reasonable, plus they have many variations in dimensions at the various sizes.

I do remember having a chalky residue left on brute cans after emptying them. That's when I discontinued use of them and went for the Rubbermaid stock tanks. Trouble with them is their footprint.

RBU1 · 02/02/2010, 04:45 AM

I can get a food grade 55 gallon plastic drum for $25.00

menthol · 02/02/2010, 04:50 AM

I use the thick blue 30-60gal. drums company's use for storing various chemicals to make cosmetics. They certainly do not leach anything back and cleaning them up for the first time is so easy, just BLEACH! hope those same things are available too in the states because all the shipping labels are stateside.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/02/2010, 08:15 AM

and to avoid all bendable plastics.

Yes, that is uninformed scaremongering on Eric's part. He does not understand plastics at all, and I'd look elsewhere for plastics advice. Many parts of that thread are just total crap.

Brute can's work perfectly fine for many people. Who knows why Eric had a problem. Might have nothing to do with the can itself, but it is chic to blame pasticizers for stuff, even when using a plastic that does not contain plasticizers (e.g., Brute cans).

I presently use 11 of them for my systems, and see no reason to choose anything different in the future. It could be there are issues with them or with anything else we might choose to use, but there is no evidence to warrant concern amidst the many, many users that are seemingly happy with them

If you are concerned, you might wash them first. Home Depot stores them near pesticides, birds in the store crap in them, they may have mold release agents on the surface, etc. Eric did not mention whether he even cleaned it first.

sowellj · 02/02/2010, 08:21 AM

I agree w/Randy on the above. That article is garbage (gotta love the puns). Classic case of correlation not causation. For whatever reason, brute trash cans have turned into the scapegoat for things gone awry. To put things into perspective, look at the amount and different types of plastic present in systems ... skimmers, powerheads, reactors, plumbing, etc. Any polyethylene/propylene plastic should be fine ... and likely lots of others too.

grammatron · 02/02/2010, 10:24 AM

In the article, he says:

Quote:

Some of you may be saying - as I have - that you have used them for years with no problems. Well, no problems you can directly find or can observe. It's like our test with Instant Ocean salt mix - I used it for years with no apparent issues, but in a controlled experiment, it perfomed terribly, caused chronic cyanobacterial films, and species died.

So I'm gonna stick with if there are no apparent issues that I can observe, I'll keep on using Brute cans.

RBU1 · 02/02/2010, 10:30 AM

I think Eric may have a axe to grind with Rubbermaid and IO for some reason. I asked him to provide some factual scientific data. I don't want his opinion.....

tangers · 02/02/2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

and to avoid all bendable plastics.

Yes, that is uninformed scaremongering on Eric's part. He does not understand plastics at all, and I'd look elsewhere for plastics advice. Many parts of that thread are just total crap.

Brute can's work perfectly fine for many people. Who knows why Eric had a problem. Might have nothing to do with the can itself, but it is chic to blame pasticizers for stuff, even when using a plastic that does not contain plasticizers (e.g., Brute cans).

I presently use 11 of them for my systems, and see no reason to choose anything different in the future. It could be there are issues with them or with anything else we might choose to use, but there is no evidence to warrant concern amidst the many, many users that are seemingly happy with them

If you are concerned, you might wash them first. Home Depot stores them near pesticides, birds in the store crap in them, they may have mold release agents on the surface, etc. Eric did not mention whether he even cleaned it first.

Looks like I will be continuing to use mine!

tangers · 02/02/2010, 10:45 AM

If I remember right I think Eric is very "partial" to Tropic Marin.... but I could be wrong.

RBU1 · 02/02/2010, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangers

If I remember right I think Eric is very "partial" to Tropic Marin.... but I could be wrong.

Interesting....

02/01/2010, 05:53 PM	#1
Asterix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 328	If not rubbermaid brute, then what? Hi all With so much recent controversy about brute trash cans for water storage, I am wondering what other options are available? I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I wanted to hear your thoughts. In case you hadn't heard, some guy (forget who) reported that the brute trash can interfered with some type of marine organism reproduction (I believe it was coral larvae but I could be wrong). Despite this, I just picked up another (new stock) brute can to use...I was wondering if perhaps using a liner would help? OK, (edit) I just googled the article, here it is "beware of brute trash cans" http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101230-9-1.aspx What do you think we should do?

02/01/2010, 06:36 PM	#2
NasotheHutt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 278	I was looking at these..... http://www.watertanks.com/category/122/ __________________ Have nothing in your home you do not believe to be beautiful, or know to be functional. - William Morris Current Tank Info: 180 delivered...working on stand

02/01/2010, 06:47 PM	#4
ChadTheSpike Reef Engineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,526 Blog Entries: 1	^agree, I just swapped my longtime rubbermaid brute trashcan sump with a 75 gallon glass tank. Cost was obviously more than the brute, but now I get to have a 50 gallon seagrass sump __________________ ~Chad "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies." Current Tank Info: 195 gallons of fun

02/01/2010, 06:51 PM	#5
fish_taste_good Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 632	Interesting. Never knew someone had an issue with a Brute. I only mix water in mine so I am not worried at all regarding it. Weird how the article is on a major retailer's site though, even if EB wrote it. __________________ Looking for a day job Current Tank Info: 240 Reef

02/01/2010, 07:05 PM	#8
ChadTheSpike Reef Engineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,526 Blog Entries: 1	To clarify, I didnt change mine because I had a problem with it... or because I had read the article on the MD forums. That being said, I wouldnt expect the average reefer to have a problem with them either... The problems that were cited were with very small organisms (gametes in this case), so unless you're raising fry, or collecting gametes or something like that, I wouldnt expect an issue. I used mine for 10+ years without issue. I would go ahead and use it. __________________ ~Chad "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies." Current Tank Info: 195 gallons of fun

02/01/2010, 06:58 PM	#6
1DeR9_3Hy Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,575	I use a glass aquarium as well....no leaching here

02/01/2010, 06:59 PM	#7
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	I have been using brute cans for years.....Never had a problem. I think you are fine.

02/01/2010, 07:34 PM	#9
Anemone0524 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NoVA Posts: 434	now another thing i have to worry about. Common sense would say that mixing saltwater in it over a short period of time might be fine. However, the days of me storing RO/DI water in these cans are over. __________________ Aaron 150g rimless 60x30x20, ATI Sunpower x8, 2 48" Reefbrite Blue LED, MSX 200, Vortech MP40w x 2, BRS CA/ALK Dosers, Biopellets and GFO

02/01/2010, 07:39 PM	#10
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	Well I have a local connection that sells food grade 55 gallon barrells. Maybe I will hit him up for a couple......

02/01/2010, 07:52 PM	#11
Logzor Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kenwood, Ohio Posts: 4,073	Is there a safe spraypaint or epoxy that you could coat the inside of a brute can?

02/01/2010, 08:17 PM	#12
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	I work in a university lab captive breeding fish, we mix our saltwater in brute cans. Thousands of people out there use them, don't worry about it. __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles Last edited by LobsterOfJustice; 02/01/2010 at 08:45 PM.

02/01/2010, 08:22 PM	#13
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	Ugh, just read the "article", er post... also says instant ocean leads to chronic problems, and to avoid all bendable plastics. FWIW, in addition to the marine ornamental fish breeding lab listed above using these, I am using these for storage of my RODI and saltwater and have gobies and cleaner shrimp regularly spawning in my tank. __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

02/01/2010, 08:23 PM	#14
Imzadi Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 1,038	Go to a farm supply store. They have many options and sizes of food grade containers. It is what they are made for... 45 gallon drums are available... used too... but you have to worry about what they were used for. The Brutes? Well, they were made to hold garbage, were they not? The regulations are not there to keep them safe for anything except garbage. __________________ If you don't agree with me, that's fine... just go, think about it some more, and come back when you do. Current Tank Info: 120g Freshie, 55g salty with a 2/3 BeanAnimal. BA METHOD - TESTIFY! I am a DIY Disaster, but I am saving money! Damsel FREE since 07/08/09!

02/01/2010, 08:46 PM	#15
noahm Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,736	Unfortunately, that article has been going around for a while and puts the fear in people. As stated above, lots and lots and lots of people have been successfully using them for a very long time even in lab situations where breeding is necessary. I believe it was determined to be an isolated, anecdotal experience. Use your brute, but rinse it first. It reminds me of the 'Saccharin causes cancer' issue back in the 80s because some study showed that it caused cancer in rats.....except nobody mentioned that it was a human equivalent dose of 600 cans of soda per day. I don't know of a single person ever, including the author of the article, that had a problem with keeping a happy reef using a brute container for water storage.

02/02/2010, 04:45 AM	#17
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	I can get a food grade 55 gallon plastic drum for $25.00

02/02/2010, 04:50 AM	#18
menthol Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Philippines Posts: 147	I use the thick blue 30-60gal. drums company's use for storing various chemicals to make cosmetics. They certainly do not leach anything back and cleaning them up for the first time is so easy, just BLEACH! hope those same things are available too in the states because all the shipping labels are stateside.

02/02/2010, 08:15 AM	#19
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	and to avoid all bendable plastics. Yes, that is uninformed scaremongering on Eric's part. He does not understand plastics at all, and I'd look elsewhere for plastics advice. Many parts of that thread are just total crap. Brute can's work perfectly fine for many people. Who knows why Eric had a problem. Might have nothing to do with the can itself, but it is chic to blame pasticizers for stuff, even when using a plastic that does not contain plasticizers (e.g., Brute cans). I presently use 11 of them for my systems, and see no reason to choose anything different in the future. It could be there are issues with them or with anything else we might choose to use, but there is no evidence to warrant concern amidst the many, many users that are seemingly happy with them If you are concerned, you might wash them first. Home Depot stores them near pesticides, birds in the store crap in them, they may have mold release agents on the surface, etc. Eric did not mention whether he even cleaned it first. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 02/02/2010 at 08:52 AM.

02/02/2010, 08:21 AM	#20
sowellj Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: greenwood, sc Posts: 712	I agree w/Randy on the above. That article is garbage (gotta love the puns). Classic case of correlation not causation. For whatever reason, brute trash cans have turned into the scapegoat for things gone awry. To put things into perspective, look at the amount and different types of plastic present in systems ... skimmers, powerheads, reactors, plumbing, etc. Any polyethylene/propylene plastic should be fine ... and likely lots of others too.

02/02/2010, 10:30 AM	#22
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	I think Eric may have a axe to grind with Rubbermaid and IO for some reason. I asked him to provide some factual scientific data. I don't want his opinion.....

02/02/2010, 10:45 AM	#24
tangers Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 1,411	If I remember right I think Eric is very "partial" to Tropic Marin.... but I could be wrong. __________________ "Rather than love, than money, than faith, than fame, than fairness... give me truth." Henry David Thoreau Click on red house for build thread. Current Tank Info: 135 gallon corner. 3x kessil a360we's, gyre xf150, custom "L" shaped sump, all on apex