Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[nineball]

Originally Posted by ransomed4ever

Peter, have you looked into getting larger colonies from fellow reefers in your area? Its seems that fairly often on my local message boards someone is posting a large colony for sale simply because it is too large for their system. Also, I think more often than not, when those of us with smaller systems have a colony get too large we chop it up into a bunch of frags, because they are easier to sell than a whole colony. If you get the word out to the local clubs I'm sure you will be able to at least get a start on your collection (although I'm sure you could wipe out all the local clubs and still have 90% of the tank left to fill).

As you know by now because you have been a member of this thread for some time, this is 'OUR' tank so each donation of the kind you are suggesting is like getting partial ownership in a public aquarium. It is a good suggestion and I will discuss it with Mr. Wilson. I am almost ready to start aggressively populating the tank with coral. It seems Mr. Wilson is trying to make sure that the fish get established first. I'm not sure who will win but I'm pretty sure that AndyTripa and ChingChai will help me make it an interesting race.


Peter

[nineball]

Originally Posted by dave.m

The way to do that is to provide complete answers, as you have done. Things need to be framed in context; if x then y. That way people can walk away with a complete method, know what they are looking for and what they should be striving to achieve before leaping to wrong conclusions. I will be following this basic methodology when I edit your book. :wink:

Dave.M

Hey editor and member of the inner cabinet.....nudge, nudge, wink, wink. If you had access to the full electronic picture storage cabinet and a prepared (well, sort of prepared......) web site......do you think we might start to build a pictorial history to ultimately compliment the narrative for the book? I can PM you the web site if you wanted to see the template.............but only if you wanted to..........

Peter

[Chago09]

wow I miss 3 days and 3 pages are added. Nice update shots, the corals are looking awesome. Has Mr. Wilson finished that fish room yet??? Somewhere in the book their needs to be a chapter on time management hahahahah sorry Shawn can't help myself. Tank looks awesome, can't wait to see the fish room finally done.

[dave.m]

Originally Posted by nineball

but only if you wanted to

Well, I ... oh geez ... not the arm lock! Okay! Okay! I give! Uncle, already!

Let's chat. 8)

Dave.M

[swissgaurd]

hey peter and shawn the system looks excellent.
looks like peter has been bittin by the sps bug.

peter in no time the frags will grow into colonies.id say 6 months and theyll be triple in size


vic

[nineball]

Originally Posted by Chago09

wow I miss 3 days and 3 pages are added. Nice update shots, the corals are looking awesome. Has Mr. Wilson finished that fish room yet??? Somewhere in the book their needs to be a chapter on time management hahahahah sorry Shawn can't help myself. Tank looks awesome, can't wait to see the fish room finally done.

Chago, can you give me a shout when you get a chance?

Thnx
Peter

[mr.wilson]

Peter, I think I found a 5th Grand Master for your azoox (non-photosynhetic) additions to the tank.
http://www.clay-boa.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=165

[othercents]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

A reef tank of 50 gallon or less, can be maintained with major weekly water changes at a lower cost than purchasing UV, ozone, calcium reactor, dosing systems, a refugium and mechanical filter. You can reinvest the capital and operational costs into a good source water filter, salt, and a water changing system.

At first I thought "sweet I don't need anything except for the 20 long tank and RO/DI filter, salt, and 3 buckets" then I decided that really there is an order for purchases while you might be able to do away with a skimmer, refugium, and mechanical filter and only do water changes, that doesn't mean you should only do water changes. The same is true in reverse with larger systems. You can add UV, calc reactor, dosing system, etc. to eliminate water changes, but that doesn't mean you should eliminate water changes.

I guess it still really depends on the tank setup, what the bio load is, how good the water and salt is, and your experience. I'm thinking everyday how much simpler my system would be if I removed the sump/refugium.

David

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by othercents

I'm thinking everyday how much simpler my system would be if I removed the sump/refugium.

When we look at streamlining our resources, water changes don't rank that bad. They are arguably the most expensive, and least effective method, but they are not the first thing I would focus on fine tuning.

The whole idea of adding a sump is a huge expense and hazard...

- holes need to be drilled in the tank which means you may have to pay extra for tempering and wait longer for a custom tank which will now be weaker
- extra plumbing and shut-off valves add greatly to the cost and engineering
- overflows can be noisy, create salt creep, trap detritus, and livestock
- leaks and floods are far more likely
- evaporation top-off becomes more critical due to a smaller pump intake area
- livestock can get lost in the plumbing and or sump
- return pumps add noise, energy consumption, vibration
-

The only reason why we have sumps in the first place is to hide the protein skimmer, refugium and media reactors. If an in-line skimmer could be run on a closed loop, or used as a HOT (hang on tank) then sumps would be a thing of the past.

Refugiums could and should be used as header tanks (above the display tank on a gravity drain) to transfer more live plankton to the display. Mangrove and refugium walls like the one I designed for Peter's tank add to the aesthetics of the display and soften the transition from the reef tank to your living space. It completes the ecosystem if you see them working directly together. The only reason why the refugium (refuge) isn't incorporated within the tank is the fish would consume all of the algae and food at once.

Media reactors do not require a sump. They just need a plastic tray to catch drips from servicing. UV sterilizers are also in-line, as well as many heaters and controller probes. Mechanical filters are another in-line filtration device that doesn't require a sump. There are even specialized surface skimmers for in-line/closed loop systems.

So we have our costly, inconvenient sumps just to hide our skimmers?... well not exactly. They do have their merits...

- added system water volume for water quality (bioload) and climate control
- remote location for messy filters
- cool basement or garage area for some sumps
- quiet segregation of pumps
- utilitarian use with for gadgets and rock etc.
- a safe area to locate water level monitors and switches
- filter bag use
- surface skimming of display

You need to weigh all of your options. If in-line protein skimmers were a tangible reality, then losing the sump would help a lot of people sleep better at night, and your reef-builing bucks will o a lot further, but unfortunately Peter has me too busy to invent it... yet

[Hookup]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

The only reason why we have sumps in the first place is to hide the protein skimmer, refugium and media reactors. If an in-line skimmer could be run on a closed loop, or used as a HOT (hang on tank) then sumps would be a thing of the past.

Do not forget surface skimming! This is, to me anyhow, THE reason to have a sump more than anything else. Surface skimming is the best* method of getting organics and the like out of your system...

Everything in your sump is more effective because you are using surface skimmed water, or "the dirtiest water in your tank" and sending it to "the cleaning station

Added to the water volume argument and sumps become a no-brainier, but I recognize your points above... just wanted to add in the bit about surface skimming as it is often overlooked when listing the pros and cons of a sump... cause it's an implementation opportunity that really only exists with a sump.

*best = as good as I know and not a scientific fact hahaha...

[othercents]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Refugiums could and should be used as header tanks (above the display tank on a gravity drain) to transfer more live plankton to the display.

Funny that you mentioned that, I have an interesting design for gravity feed refugium into the display with a gravity feed sump from the display. You just pump from the sump to the refugium. This could be done in one stack with the sump on bottom, display in the middle, and refugium on top, however most people would prefer the display in the main room with the refugium and sump on an adjacent room allowing for water changes or top offs to happen between the sump and refugium. I'm not sure if I would want to do water changes for a 300g display if all I had was 5 gallon buckets.

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

The only reason why we have sumps in the first place is to hide the protein skimmer

I don't use a skimmer and only do surface skimming to remove excess protein however if you integrated surface skimming to your water change, then you would be effectively removing all the excess protein build-up with a good chance of not needing a skimmer. If you water changed less water, but more often (daily or hourly) and surface skimmed your dirty water down the drain then you would effectively remove the protein that usually goes through a skimmer.

Water volume was the primary reason I decided on a sump instead of an AIO setup.

David

[TonyV]

So Peter I may have missed it somewhere, but how does Mr. Wilson fit into the whole equation of this beautiful tank? Is he your full-time tank guru? Whatever it is, it's working.

[acropora1981]

wow nice setup dude! Aren't you glad you live in the GTA? We have some of the best stores and prices in North America!

[Chago09]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Are you sure you don't want to talk about a less sensitive subject like religion or politics?

In my opinion water changes are good for the following purposes, in order of importance/effectiveness.

- removing detritus
- reducing/diluting secondary metabolites (algae & coral toxins)
- reducing/diluting heavy metals, or what we call trace elements in the aquarium hobby
- reducing/diluting vitamins
- reducing/diluting nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)
- reducing/diluting phosphate
- reducing/diluting bacteria
- reducing/diluting TOC

Water changes are limited by the percentage you exchange. A 10% water change removes 10% of the "bad stuff". The exception to this is detritus removal, if you are vacuuming the substrate, blasting out rock work and vacuuming the sump. Water changes do not effectively replenish water chemistry, as it is limited by the same percentage issue. In other words, a 10% water change only assures that 10% of the total water volume has the right proportions of calcium, carbonates, magnesium, and all the other "good stuff". While it is nice to remove some of the bad stuff, filtration devices are more efficient and calcium reactors and chemical dosing assures that 100% of the water has the proper water chemistry (good stuff).

Water changes can cause harm if they aren't carried out diligently. Some of the negative aspects of water changes are...

- reduction of pro-biotics (bacteria & plankton)
- introduction of impurities via source water, salt mix, mixing tools or hose
- introduction of excess trace elements and vitamins from salt mix
- temperature fluctuation
- salinity fluctuation
- PH, KH, calcium, magnesium etc. shock from bad salt mix
- classified/non-homogenous salt mix due to partial bucket or bag use
- old, clumped/compromised salt mix
- exposure of corals to atmospheric air
- partially dissolved salt mix
- poorly aerated salt mix
- accidental overfilling system
- accidentally over-draining system
- sand bed disturbance releasing hydrogen sulphide or depleting DSB infauna (beneficial organisms)

The main issue with water changes is they need to be calibrated to the demand. If you have "x" amount of nutrients building up in your system, then you need to do water changes according to that demand. A 10% water change will reduce your 20ppm nitrate down to 18ppm, but your residual nitrate accumulation may be at a faster rate than your weekly or monthly water changes. We aren't talking about a static amount that you can slowly chip away at, unless you have filtration devices and nutrient export of other sorts to make up the difference. If that is the case, water changes may not be necessary, and they are clearly the most expensive and least effective method of nutrient export.

We know that zero nitrates and phosphates can be maintained without water changes through carbon dosing, DSB, GFO and refugia to name a few. We also know that water chemistry can be maintained without water changes, and that there is an excess not a deficit of trace elements. Why add trace elements (heavy metals) when we statistically have too many? Most reef tanks don't require physical removal of detritus, including many of the tanks that receive major and frequent water changes. This only leaves secondary metabolites as an agent that we need to export. It is possible that this is enough justification for water changes, but it is equally possible that they are removed more efficiently through UV, ozone, protein skimming, mechanical filtration, mangrove trees, macro algae, carbon, bacterial assimilation, biological assimilation by micro organisms and coral, or simply time.

In evaluating any procedure you must first establish what you are trying to accomplish and why you are doing so. If water changes offer something that you are not getting with your current regimen, and you feel there is a demand in the first place, then by all means do so. On the other hand, if you feel that your application has all of these criteria covered and see no need for adding trace elements & vitamins, then water changes may no be a cost effective method of maintaing your reef.

The bigger the tank, the less you rely on water changes, and vice versa. A reef tank of 50 gallon or less, can be maintained with major weekly water changes at a lower cost than purchasing UV, ozone, calcium reactor, dosing systems, a refugium and mechanical filter. You can reinvest the capital and operational costs into a good source water filter, salt, and a water changing system. Once you get over 200 gallons, water changes are less appealing.

This doesn't mean you can stop doing water changes without consequence. Many people claim that their tanks look better after water changes. If you have a good system and are confident that it can be somewhat self sustaining, then slowly reduce water change frequency or volume. If you see negative repercussions, then resume water changes as before.

Sorry to send the thread back to this topic but I did have a question. My system I have always been a no water change kind of guy. My 90 gallon had maybe 3 water changes in about 3 years. My tank thrived. I never had nutrient issues as I had all my filtration oversized. Refugium was 40 gallons of pure chaeto with a lot of lighting. Skimmer was rated for 180 gallons and I have about 150lbs of live rock.

Ever since I moved up to a 180, I had issues with algae to start which sorted its self out. I now can't even find a tiny piece of algae in my tank even if I look for it and its been set up since July with no water changes yet. Tank is heavily stocked with fish and quite honestly over fed. My new born baby loves watching the tank when fish eat so what the hell. Although that all being said, I have noticed its been tough to keep up with magnesium. I feel like I need buckets of this stuff to keep up and my tank is not fully stocked with coral yet.

Now I totally agree a 20% water change is not going to make huge changes to your mag levels. What is the best way to get it up there and keep it there? I set my tank up so I do as little work as possible. I don't want to have to test and add mag every single day like I have been doing. Maybe I'll just bring in a water sample to see if my kits are no good. All in all though inverts are doing great. SPS, LPS and clams are all growing at nice rates and have great colours. Polyps are fully extended right from lights on to lights off.

[nineball]

Originally Posted by swissgaurd

hey peter and shawn the system looks excellent.
looks like peter has been bittin by the sps bug.

peter in no time the frags will grow into colonies.id say 6 months and theyll be triple in size


vic

Vic, I will still need a dump truck if I try and finish this build with frags..........
But thanks for the encouragement.


Peter

[arctictwist]

Didn't u promise us some pictures the other day?

[nineball]

Originally Posted by arctictwist

Didn't u promise us some pictures the other day?

I did and Mr. Wilson asked me to wait a few days for some final tweaking of the systems in the fish room...... so soon, very, very soon.

Peter

[arctictwist]

Ohhhh ok.... Lol. Well be waitin!

[aquainas]

Originally Posted by Chago09

Sorry to send the thread back to this topic but I did have a question. My system I have always been a no water change kind of guy. My 90 gallon had maybe 3 water changes in about 3 years. My tank thrived. I never had nutrient issues as I had all my filtration oversized. Refugium was 40 gallons of pure chaeto with a lot of lighting. Skimmer was rated for 180 gallons and I have about 150lbs of live rock.

Ever since I moved up to a 180, I had issues with algae to start which sorted its self out. I now can't even find a tiny piece of algae in my tank even if I look for it and its been set up since July with no water changes yet. Tank is heavily stocked with fish and quite honestly over fed. My new born baby loves watching the tank when fish eat so what the hell. Although that all being said, I have noticed its been tough to keep up with magnesium. I feel like I need buckets of this stuff to keep up and my tank is not fully stocked with coral yet.

Now I totally agree a 20% water change is not going to make huge changes to your mag levels. What is the best way to get it up there and keep it there? I set my tank up so I do as little work as possible. I don't want to have to test and add mag every single day like I have been doing. Maybe I'll just bring in a water sample to see if my kits are no good. All in all though inverts are doing great. SPS, LPS and clams are all growing at nice rates and have great colours. Polyps are fully extended right from lights on to lights off.

Chago09,
I'm sure you are aware that magnesium is taken up as part of the formation of calcium carbonate, however as you've mentioned you're not fully stocked with coral so where's your source of depletion? Are you dosing huge amounts of magnesium to raise the level, then retesting after a couple days show a drop?
Reason I asked is because I just experienced this same scenario where I would dose and test weekly only to discover the concentration not changing much, tried a brand new test kit and levels were 300ppm higher and well within acceptable range. For the past 3 months I always tested ~1140ppm and fought to target ~1400 and little did I know I was already there. note that I was using a Salifert kit that was due to hit the expiration date in 2 months.
BTW I envy your success with such little water changes as I know of so many others who have attempted that method with very little success.

Excellent photos of the livestock Peter! Mr Wilson get that fish room finished so we can see those pics

Shane.

[Mangodude]

I may have missed it.. but did you guys ever finish the mangrove forest? I know at one time there was some delays but I wasn't sure if you were done now.

[nineball]

Originally Posted by Mangodude

I may have missed it.. but did you guys ever finish the mangrove forest? I know at one time there was some delays but I wasn't sure if you were done now.

The mangrove hydroponic forest wall unit is plumbed into the system and is feeding the sump. It is lit with three plasma lights and looks fantastic. I am extremely pleased with the result. Mr. Wilson wants to wait until the automated misting system is set up to mimic life in the wild with a fog in the morning and a thunder cloud shower around 4pm. Once that regime is instantiated Mr. Wilson has said I can take pictures. I have secretly been taking pictures of the build process so that we can all benefit from set up experience.

Peter

[Mangodude]

Originally Posted by nineball

The mangrove hydroponic forest wall unit is plumbed into the system and is feeding the sump. It is lit with three plasma lights and looks fantastic. I am extremely pleased with the result. Mr. Wilson wants to wait until the automated misting system is set up to mimic life in the wild with a fog in the morning and a thunder cloud shower around 4pm. Once that regime is instantiated Mr. Wilson has said I can take pictures. I have secretly been taking pictures of the build process so that we can all benefit from set up experience.

Peter

Thanks for the update, can't wait to see the pics!

The automated misting sounds great! It gets old misting each plant with a spray-bottle of water..

Do you think a twice a day misting is too much? I know where I live there are mangroves and if we get rain once a week we are happy. We do get some fog in the morning but an "afternoon shower" is only common in the summer.

They may benefit extremely from this extra rain but I wasn't sure if it would put them in too much of a brackish environment..

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by TonyV

So Peter I may have missed it somewhere, but how does Mr. Wilson fit into the whole equation of this beautiful tank? Is he your full-time tank guru? Whatever it is, it's working.

The tank is Peter's baby, and I'm married to the tank, so I guess that makes me Peter's son-in-law. Like any proud father, he keeps a real close eye on how I treat his baby. I'm starting to worry that he's going to withhold my passport

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Peter, I think I found a 5th Grand Master for your azoox (non-photosynhetic) additions to the tank.
http://www.clay-boa.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=165

I guess that forum is off-bounds. I thought the clay boa link was reserved for santamonica and his magical ATS.

[LINCOLNZ34]

Very cool project!!