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Old 03/13/2010, 12:46 PM   #1
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!

OK, I've been experimenting with upping and upping the vinegar dose for my tank. Hoping to stop any green algae on the glass and kill off some macroalgae and maybe bryopsis (which has not worked).

I've been adding more and more vinegar and less and less vodka.

Well, at the recent limit of 410 mL of lime-saturated vinegar, the tank really was noticeably poorer.

Most particularly, the RBTAs browned up (still orange, but darker and the white parts are now brown) and they expanded less and less, and the H. crispa also expanded less. Some soft corals were also shrunken.

Cyano also started to grow faster again.

Also, the green algae on the glass seemed to grow faster! Bryopsis is also out of control, although that may not be related.

So Ive decided to cut way back and try 150 ml of lime-saturated vinegar with no vodka for a bit and see if things go back to normal.


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Old 03/13/2010, 12:50 PM   #2
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So this would translate out to how many ml vinegar/gallon of tank water? And this is per day?


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Old 03/13/2010, 01:42 PM   #3
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I does vinegar with kalk as well. It has completly left me with no signs of any alage but at the cost of duller sps corals. Any suggestion how to keep the color and use vinegar?


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Old 03/13/2010, 05:02 PM   #4
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Interesting that you still get algae on the glass despite such heavy dosing.
FWIW in my tank I'm using about 300-500cc kalk saturated vinegar a day and get no algae growth on the glass.
Instead I get a white film after a few days that I assume is bacteria. There is a very light growth of hair algae on the rock and some white/red/black spongy looking stuff on the bottom that looks like a mix of cyano and bacteria. Am also running a bunch of GFO and carbon as I just hate algae.
Some of my SPS near 400W 20K's turned almost white around when nitrates when from 20 to zero and the leathers/ colt corals still look ok.


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Old 03/13/2010, 06:40 PM   #5
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Hows your alkalinity/calcium levels with all that lime saturated kalk dosing? One thing I didn't like about dosing vinegar with kalk was how much it raised my levels.


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Old 03/13/2010, 08:15 PM   #6
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A half liter does seem a bit excessive!


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Old 03/13/2010, 08:49 PM   #7
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That's a lot of vinegar.


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Old 03/13/2010, 10:09 PM   #8
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can't wait for randy's carbon dosing article..


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Old 03/14/2010, 12:19 AM   #9
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i notice the exact same white film with a lack of alage on the glass. i also notice my sps went a little but white but not bleached.


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Old 03/14/2010, 04:32 AM   #10
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In my 220 gallons SPS tank I dose GAA 0.6 ml daily (0.30 morning and 0.30 evening) and my PO4 are rock stable 0.00/0.01 and NO3 0.2
Since GAA is 160 stronger of vinegar , 0.6 ml GAA = 96 ml of vinegar.
In my tank higher dosage is useless and drive to cyano/brown deposit.



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Old 03/14/2010, 07:36 AM   #11
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FWIW, I was expecting to start to see bacteria, but I haven't seen any in the display tank. I also never saw anything turn pale.

It is clear to me that the zoox in my RBTA's can clearly consume the acetate and so they increased in population. Maybe that isn't true of SPS corals, and that is why they turn pale and not brown (I don't currently have any SPS). My LPS seem largely unchanged.

The dose of 410 mL was about 2 ml per gallon per day. Maybe a bit less.

I don't generally track calcium and alkalinity, since it never varies much from acceptable ranges, but I do not think there is much rise. The amount dosed is equivalent to about 2 gallons of limewater per day, and that is well within the amounts I usually dose. This is a low evaporation time of the year for me, and so the top off limewater is slow.


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Old 03/14/2010, 08:01 AM   #12
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Randy, you're maximum vinegar dose is about 4X higher than I was at. I was up to 0.5 ml. per gallon per day, which worked well for me and was afraid to increase it higher. From your results, I would conclude that there should be quite a vinegar dosing range available to hobbyists.

It will be imformative to know how your coral and RBTAs recover from the overdose. Was this a gradual increase in vinegar over time?

The browning could be from a large increase in symbiotic algae. I noticed a browning effect in my RBTA also when I increased my vinegar dose amount. Less expansion, may mean they had plenty of food to utilize without further needs?

Shinking of soft corals, I have no idea what this would mean.


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Old 03/14/2010, 08:06 AM   #13
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Yes, it was a fairly gradual rise, made in jumps, but still over a long time (months).

Yes, I'm fairly sure the brown is zoox levels being higher. I expect they will drop back.


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Old 03/14/2010, 08:13 AM   #14
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I feel your pain. I have tried about every combination of everything to halt my cyno and bryopsis. The only time I saw my bryopsis and cyno receding was when alkalinity got real low in my tank. It fell below 7.0 for a couple of weeks and I went whow, what is happening. I am now trying to keep it around 7 dkh to see if this has long term affects. I have also decreased my photo period and increased the flow a little in the tank. Any or all of these things could be helping but the jury is still out.

FWIW, when I tried vinegar, awhile back, it got worse not better.

I'm beginning to think it is just old tank syndrome. A tank that has been set up a long time is bound to start having these issues. I'm sure there is another answer, just have not found it yet, no matter how much I read.


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Old 03/14/2010, 08:16 AM   #15
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We just have to find the magic fish that eats only bryopsis and cyano.


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Old 03/14/2010, 09:59 AM   #16
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Since I started dosing vinegar with Kalk now at 60 ml per day on my 136 gallon tank,HA has started.I am now confused whether to stop it and start dosing Vodka or try Algaefix.
ALK is at 9 and all other paras are at par.Colors are just ok.Well not that great.


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Old 03/14/2010, 11:21 AM   #17
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Randy. I don't notice any changes in my LPS or zoanthids either. But i do get no alage growth what at all plus a slight white film on the glass where the old slight green algae film would have been. The fading white color in my sps only happen to a tri color and a few monti digi's. I am going to try feeding a bit more to see if i can color them back up.


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Old 03/14/2010, 12:09 PM   #18
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-Hi Randy ,

-If you have to dose so much vinegar a day , isn`t it better then to dose pure acetic acid ?
It would save you the hassle to buy so much bottles of vinegar every week ...

greetingzz tntneon


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Old 03/14/2010, 02:10 PM   #19
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I've got some questions and would appreciate whatever comments.
my nitrates were off the charts 2 mos ago, so I emulated Randys carbon dosing.
Now, after 2 mos nitrates are down to 20. Twice I tried to include vinegar in the regimen and both times had to stop because even small additions of 1ml per 50 gal per week caused a bloom of (bacteria?) white slime.
I also dose trace ammounts of Kalkwasser. Even with massive waterchanges my dKh is now at 14.
So what do you guys think? Dose vinegar anyway? Increase?
Calc 440 Ph 8.2 NO3 .20 Mag 1280 Phos. 0 dKh 14


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Old 03/15/2010, 06:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnfritz View Post
I've got some questions and would appreciate whatever comments.
my nitrates were off the charts 2 mos ago, so I emulated Randys carbon dosing.
Now, after 2 mos nitrates are down to 20. Twice I tried to include vinegar in the regimen and both times had to stop because even small additions of 1ml per 50 gal per week caused a bloom of (bacteria?) white slime.
I also dose trace ammounts of Kalkwasser. Even with massive waterchanges my dKh is now at 14.
So what do you guys think? Dose vinegar anyway? Increase?
Calc 440 Ph 8.2 NO3 .20 Mag 1280 Phos. 0 dKh 14
Do you have a bare bottom tank?


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Old 03/15/2010, 08:19 AM   #21
Randy Holmes-Farley
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-If you have to dose so much vinegar a day , isn`t it better then to dose pure acetic acid ?
It would save you the hassle to buy so much bottles of vinegar every week ...


Well, one gallon of vinegar costs $2.59 and lasts about 10 days at the super high dose, and maybe 3 weeks at the current dose, so expense and bother is not a big deal. My dosing pump sucks it directly from the gallon jug.


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Old 03/15/2010, 08:22 AM   #22
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Twice I tried to include vinegar in the regimen and both times had to stop because even small additions of 1ml per 50 gal per week caused a bloom of (bacteria?) white slime.

The bacteria have to grow somewhere. I have a lot of live rock in the refugia downstream of the vinegar dosing, and also a cannister filter of GAC, and I expect nearly all the bacteria grows there, so I never see any.


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Old 03/15/2010, 05:20 PM   #23
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When I dose 40ml of vinegar in my 100gal tank, there was green film in glass,
When water change 15%, dosing 60ml daily and MB7 once, I could find white film in glass.

I do not dose MB7 daily but I think MB7 can boost the bacteral growth.
HTH Now I maintain the quantity of vinegar and do not dose MB7 daily.


I am still watching to my tank. What I am thinking is right.


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Old 03/15/2010, 07:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandReefer View Post
Do you have a bare bottom tank?
what is the difference iof you have a bare bottom tank? I have just started(about a month ago) vin. dosing. I do have a bare bottom that i keep really clean. I have very high flow, 3 k4's and an mp10 in the tank and a mag 12 return. I have an octo 110 skimmer soon to get a bb pump and a 50g sump with a ton of cheato. I beleave to sump was the reason for my slight cyno problem. Its not out of control but i dont want to see any.


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Old 03/15/2010, 07:48 PM   #25
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[QUOTE=7thheaven;16774821]When I dose 40ml of vinegar in my 100gal tank, there was green film in glass,
When water change 15%, dosing 60ml daily and MB7 once, I could find white film in glass.=QUOTE]

Is the white film bad? What does it mean?


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