All advice welcome - Finally preparing for my reef tank

[AnayaReef]

Hello everyone!

I have been (patiently) waiting to start my reef tank for years (about 15). I have kept freshwater throughout these years and successfully bred show quality Betta Splendids for several years.

So here are my stats. I have the following tanks at my disposal:

55 gallon (48Lx21Hx12W)
30 Breeder (30x18x12)
20 High (24x16x12) - currently housing my tropical freshwater 'family'
20 Long (30x13x12) (have 2 of these, but have my geckos in one)
more standard 10 gallon tanks than I could count....
I have no proper lighting yet, more about that later...

My goals - To have a gorgeous reef tank that can successfully house a pair of Green Mandarin Dragonets (fell in love with the fish 13 years ago and have been planning this ever since-they are my ultimate goal - everythign revolves around them), pair of small percula clowns (loved them even before Nemo), a pair of sea horses (no idea what kind, but would like to try my hand at breeding them...maybe...maybe not, lol), a starfish of some kind, maybe a crab if I can and some kind of corals...no idea what kind of corals I want or should get (would love input). Anything beyond that is just icing.

I have no stand currently, will be building that based on how I decide to set this up. I am blessed with a VERY handy husband...I'm not too shabby myself

I have been reading and doing a lot of research (my head is still spinning). Based on the fish I want, I understand I cannot have anemones and some kinds of corals (anything that will eat slower fish). I understand I cannot have aggressive fish, no biggie for me. I understand that the Mandarin is a very particular eater and I must have a solid pod population to feed him (refugium will help with that) in a well established tank. No worries, I have waited 13 years to get them, I can wait another 6 mo- 1yr to let my tank establish before buying them. Any other input on keeping Mandarins?

Lighting - I am planning on investing in and making custom LED lighting for at least my display tank and possibly my refugium as well. Again, handy husband will come in...well, handy. lol Any feedback on LEDs? I know they are still relatively new to the hobby...

Part of my problem is, I am not sure which tanks to use for everything.

It makes sense to use the largest for my display (55) with a shallow sand bed (any input on what the most economical, yet good sand I can get?), lots of live rock (will probably cure right in the system since it will be a new setup), and some strategically placed powerheads to prevent dead spots but so they aren't too forceful (for the sea horses). Thoughts on this setup?

I was thinking the 20L and 30B for my Sump and Refugium because that would nearly double the water in the system...but I am struggling with a plan for a stand to house both of those. I truly wanted the regugium above the DT so I could pull in the water into the display via overflow and not a pump. That would prevent damage to the pods by not going through a powerhead. But I'm not sure if that is feesible....perhaps it is - does anyone else have a stand where they have their refugium above their display? I was thinking I could use the 20L for this, using a deep sandbed and alternate lighting (what lighting is most commonly used for a refugium tank?). I have also thought about making my Refugium setup as an alternate display within my stand...what is your experience with refugiums being 'pretty' enough for a secondary display??

Then use the 30B under the display as a sump and would contain the skimmer and whatever other filtration (that part is still undecided as to what I will use - suggestions welcome).

Then I will be using one of my many 10 gallons for a QT tank setup outside the system for when I start adding livestock...eventually, lol.

So I am still reading, still learning, still being patient. I'm taking my time because I want to do it right and I want to only do it once if possible. My first goals are to decide my setup and filtration so I can build my stand, build my lighting and then start the long process of building my reef so I can get my mandarins.

I have found this forum extremely helpful and look forward to any and all feedback and advice any of you may have. Thanks!!

~Rhonni

PS......I have a full R/O unit with a Deionizer...

[Tilmo2180]

Sounds to me like you have it all under control. Generally horses are kept in tanks all to themselves. You could plumb 2 tanks together though. I would also recommend getting a larger tank as your display, or at least one with more depth. I have found that the best reef tanks are not much tall as they are deep (front to back). Sounds to me like you have done a lot of research already though.

[AnayaReef]

Originally Posted by Tilmo2180

Sounds to me like you have it all under control. Generally horses are kept in tanks all to themselves. You could plumb 2 tanks together though.

What about keeping the horses in the fuge? I hadn't considered that until you mentioned this...

[cloak]

What's the difference between a freshwater tank and a saltwater tank?

Salt.

[AnayaReef]

Originally Posted by cloak

What's the difference between a freshwater tank and a saltwater tank?

Salt.

So you're saying I can just add some salt to my freshwater tank and all will be good? Hee hee....don't think my freshwater family would like that much!!!

[Sisterlimonpot]

I agree to start off with a larger tank however with your plan of just 4 relatively small fish, a 55 will be fine, but just so you know this hobby is addictive and you'll want more than just 2 mandarins and 2 clowns.

The above tank refugium is somewhat of a rare thing. I was in your shoes about 2 years ago and only found one other person that has done it, however I have a 20 gallon refugium above my 72 that houses all my chaeto and hermit crabs. and under the tank the is a 15 gallon sump that houses all the equiplment.

The plumbing is the same as a normal under tank sump/fuge with the exception that you have to have a second pump in the display to push the water in the above tank and then allow gravity to drain the water back to the display. So in essence you have have 2 separate system working together.

And yes you can use that refugium as a tank for your sea horses if you want and make it a second display. It's all up to you.

[AnayaReef]

Originally Posted by Sisterlimonpot

... but just so you know this hobby is addictive and you'll want more than just 2 mandarins and 2 clowns.

Tell me about it, I know the addiction all too well...I started off with one Betta Splenden once upon a time and wound up with hundreds because the addiction took over (see the website in my profile...total addict).

This is where my husband comes in, he is my 'balancer'...keeps me in check (or tries). I was going to start with a nano reef (20 gallon long) but then read that the mandarin's need a larger established tank...so I found the 55 at a yard sale. That with 30b sump (also a yard sale find) + 20L fuge should give them the water space they need to thrive. If I thought I could get by with a larger tank....I would...however seeing as I have to rely on hubby to build my stand and lighting...I have to try to stay within some reasonable size...reasonable in his eyes at least!

I have never really been as interested in the fish of a saltwater as I have the reef creatures/corals. The only fish I have ever been captivated by are listed in my wants. I truly think that the mandarin's special needs will keep me from going to crazy...it is all about them. I am truly in love with that fish.

Originally Posted by Sisterlimonpot

... I have a 20 gallon refugium above my 72 that houses all my chaeto and hermit crabs. and under the tank the is a 15 gallon sump that houses all the equiplment.

How do you have that housed? Did you build a custom stand? Do you have pics? Is your fuge a DSB? If so, how does that work with the crabs?

Originally Posted by Sisterlimonpot

The plumbing is the same as a normal under tank sump/fuge with the exception that you have to have a second pump in the display to push the water in the above tank and then allow gravity to drain the water back to the display. So in essence you have have 2 separate system working together.

I was thinking about having the main tank overflow to the sump and the sump would then pump fresh filtered water into the fuge, which would overflow gently into the display...would that work? Or have the sump split off and pump some back to the DT and some to the Fuge, which would then overflow into the DT...

Originally Posted by Sisterlimonpot

And yes you can use that refugium as a tank for your sea horses if you want and make it a second display. It's all up to you.

I would prefer to have the horses in the main display if at all possible since I won't have it very fish heavy and the fuge will supply food...i might need to do some more reading (I have time, they will probably be my last purchase due to their cost!). If I wind up not being able to, I will arrange the fuge with some live rock and horse friendly algae that will still benefit well as a fuge. The alternate lighting schedule in the fuge would be a downside to having the horses in there.

So much to ponder and plan for...I am now contemplating a corner custom stand that would give me additional storage underneath. Unfortunately the corner I am looking at isn't long enough on one side to put a QT tank next to the display without interfering with the display itself....*sigh*....so much to figure out!

Thank goodness for this forum and all of it's helpful members!

[Sisterlimonpot]

How do you have that housed? Did you build a custom stand? Do you have pics? Is your fuge a DSB? If so, how does that work with the crabs?

I had to build a cabinet around the tank and screw the cabinet into the wall (just like your kitchen cabinet). I have pics somewhere, I have to find some. and post them

I was thinking about having the main tank overflow to the sump and the sump would then pump fresh filtered water into the fuge, which would overflow gently into the display...would that work? Or have the sump split off and pump some back to the DT and some to the Fuge, which would then overflow into the DT...

That would work fine as well just make sure your pump can handle the head pressure. I was going to do that as well, the only thing that was stopping me is I wanted "dirty" water to the fuge so that the chaeto can be fed. But I don't think that it matters too much. how you do it. your way eliminates the use of 2 pumps.

I'm not too familiar with horses, they never intrigued me. So I can't say if they can be in the display with others or not. I just go off of the word of others when it comes to that.

[jchase1970]

Make your fuge a display fuge that you can sit beside your main tank. I love planted display fuges. I think they look as nice as a reef tank, if fact I consider it a reef in it's self just a part most people don't model. Horses seem do do real well in them too.

Do you have room to sit the 55 and 30 sided by side seems they are about the same height. A planted fuge to look nice needs to be tall enough the plants don't touch the top of the water and fold over. of course you can just trim them up too.

[AnayaReef]

Originally Posted by jchase1970

Do you have room to sit the 55 and 30 sided by side seems they are about the same height. A planted fuge to look nice needs to be tall enough the plants don't touch the top of the water and fold over. of course you can just trim them up too.

You know...I just might! I have been going over my office today deciding what I can move where and I think I have freed up my long wall (in my mind anyway)...which means when I build my custom stand, I could plan for that, side by side. That is a good idea and would be easier than mounting one above it. I could build a small lift to actually make both tanks the same height... Maybe have the fuge an inch higher and plumb them so the fuge overflows slowly into the DT...I could make a custom hood that covers both tanks...hmmm....the wheels are turning now . I could build a separator so that I could still have an alternate lighting schedule for both...but then, I might want to keep the fuge in something that I can close at night so the lights don't bother my daughter (sleeps across the hall!)....oh all of the things to consider! LOL I think I'm going to go sketch out plans now.... when I come up with a final layout plan, I'll post it. Of course, more ideas and suggestions still welcome!!

[mthomp]

as far as mandarins go. 2 is going to be too many in a 55gal tank. you will be surprised at how quickly they can desimate a population of pods. starfish are over rated and the really cool ones almost never survive aka linkas. you can have anenomes, just be sure to let your tank fully mature, like 6 months, id wait at least that long before a mandarin as well.

[AnayaReef]

as far as mandarins go. 2 is going to be too many in a 55gal tank. you will be surprised at how quickly they can desimate a population of pods.

Is a pair too many even with a 30 gallon Fuge tank hooked into my 55 gallon (along with at least a 20g sump...looking for a larger one now)? I was hoping to keep a pair if possible.

starfish are over rated and the really cool ones almost never survive aka linkas.

Why don't they survive? I'm not even sure what kinds are out there, i just thought they might be neat.

you can have anenomes, just be sure to let your tank fully mature, like 6 months, id wait at least that long before a mandarin as well.

I plan on waiting at least that long for the mandarins, definitely. I want my fuge fully matured as well as a well established display.

So you are saying if I wait 6 months I can still have an anemone and it won't eat my mandarins? Why is that?

Thanks!

[mthomp]

I am not saying it is impossible, but they are hard to care for and it may not be the only living thing in your tank that will feast on pods I think most people recomend at least a 75gal for just 1. just do some reasearch and ask around some. As far as the anenome goes, i am not saying it wont eat a fish that carelessly wander into it, but typically between you and your clown feeding it, it most likely wont be overly interested in a healthy fish.

[AnayaReef]

I am not saying it is impossible, but they are hard to care for and it may not be the only living thing in your tank that will feast on pods I think most people recomend at least a 75gal for just 1. just do some reasearch and ask around some. As far as the anenome goes, i am not saying it wont eat a fish that carelessly wander into it, but typically between you and your clown feeding it, it most likely wont be overly interested in a healthy fish.

I will definitely keep that in mind, I would like a pair but the fish is my main concern and if only keeping one is better overall, that is what I will do. If I could possibly train them to eat foods I provide, that would increase the ability to house 2, wouldn't it?

I would love to have an anemone for my clowns. I will have to research some more on them.

[mthomp]

yeah you can sometimes train them and ORA is about to come out with some already trained, but you almost have to spot feed them. and training them is not easy.

[AnayaReef]

yeah you can sometimes train them and ORA is about to come out with some already trained, but you almost have to spot feed them. and training them is not easy.

I just read that they are coming out with some farm raised ones, that is exciting!!

I will probably try to spot feed them when I eventually get them, I will probably spend every waking moment oogling them.......I've waited a long time to finally get them

[mthomp]

hahaha I do that now the sadest part of my day is lights out. I have only been in this hobby for 3 months now and i am amazed with my tank everytime i look up at it.

best advice i can honestly give you is to take your sweet time, and research every single thing you add, from livestock to equipment. Also do not buy into everything your salesman tells you.

[bluestarfish]

Interesting Mandarin thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...light=mandarin

[Sisterlimonpot]

You know, mandarins have been bread in captivity, and those ones eat frozen food, I'm not sure how available they are right now but if you can get a hold of those they will be fine in a 55.

MOFIB is a great site to visit
edit: just read bluestarfish link and that's a great thread as well.

[AnayaReef]

Interesting Mandarin thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...light=mandarin

Thanks, I read that this morning. I'm subscribed now so I can keep up

Also, back to teaching them to eat prepared foods, I used to teach my Bettas to jump out of their tanks and take pellets out of my fingers Yeah, I had a lot of time on my hands....

[mthomp]

i have taught more then 1 fish how to roll over and play dead.

[Sisterlimonpot]

It took about a year before my mandarin started to eat frozen mysis shrimp. It still doesn't eat 100% of the time, he still likes the live food but at least he developed a palate for frozen.

[super stooge]

as far as the sea horses in the display are concerned, they are generally kept in a species only tank or fish with similar needs (such as pipefish). i cant offer first hand experience on the matter but from what i know there may be a problem with the horses being out competed for food by the clowns (and any other fish that you inevitably wont be able to resist ). also the lower flow will limit the corals that you can keep.

congratulations on taking the step to make your tank and good luck with your set up.

heres a lil bit of mandarin eye candy to tie you over until you get yours http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTus19Ezas

[j.p. harrington]

ok i read you post and skimmed through the responses. as i seen another say they are now captive breeding the mandarin that eat frozen foods. ORA comes to mind in my area but they arent releasing them until they fully eat frozen 100% of the time.

your display should be fine but you may want to consider going with a 75 as it is a good bit wider and allows for more aquascaping possibilitys than the 55 this is what i did.

the idea with the fuge above the tank is very common with the sump pumping water up to it and then gravity feeding out of fuge back into the sump.

as for the sea horses i would not reccomend them in the display as they can handle much flow. i would consider putting them in your fuge but they would take away from your pod population.


with that said i have my fuge and sump in the same tank under my display but i have a open bottom stand that allows for easy acces and expandabilty at any time here a pic

i would also like to mention the i have a DSB in both my display and fuge.



the lighting used on it is just the clip on type lights you can get at lowes or home depot with the reflector taken off the bulb is a 6500k CF flood type bulb a bunch of people use this and it grows macro just fine

i just started my tank but have done years and years of reading just about every night im addicted. so even though i dont have the hands on experience i have the knowledge i am in no way saying this is how to or how not to do this.

[j.p. harrington]

i would also like to add to my above post that flow in the display is key to keeping dead spots out most people these days are turning thee displays over 65X per hour.

and forgot to mention that i also run a emperor 400 in the fuge to help with filtration as i feed it raw water from the display which some say is a no no but ive got a CUC in there so i dont worry