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Old 09/12/2012, 05:06 PM   #76
pecman347
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+1 on the above post... makes me rethink about my fragging procedures..


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Old 10/01/2012, 05:53 PM   #77
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ok..........wanted to bump this thread. I am currently going through this exact same thing. Since Saturday, I have been to 2 seperate EDs (been transfered) and had to go back last night after I have completely lost my sight in my left eye. This is exactly my story to the tee right now.

I knew of the risk and apparently didnt wash my hands after handling the paly. Am very glad someone forwarded this to me, as today the doctors told me they are unsure if I will regain the vision in my left eye, and this gives me some hope! Currently on eye drops every hour

please everyone take this seriously. I have always been like..........i have handled them thousands of times and never had any issues..........however it only took 1 paly to do this to me!


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Old 10/05/2012, 10:17 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schackmel View Post
the doctors told me they are unsure if I will regain the vision in my left eye
How's the eye doing?


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Old 10/05/2012, 05:18 PM   #79
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This may have already been mentioned, but buy some inexpensive surgical gloves and safety goggles and then always remember to wear them when you're handling theswe corals.


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Old 10/06/2012, 02:49 AM   #80
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People talk about "Palys" being the worse or the only one, but it could be that many times they aren't even identifying it correctly.

Zoanthids in general have toxins and that will include Zoanthus spp., Palythoa spp. and Protopalythoa spp.
We need to be careful with ALL the zoanthids.

I believe there are a few types of toxins the zoanthids use as protection. Palytoxin could be only one of them.

Here we teach the kids not to touch the reef and make sure they have water shoes when fishing on the rocks!

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Old 10/12/2012, 12:56 AM   #81
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Here they say that some of the tested zoanthids didn't have toxins at all.
So it's true to say that not ALL the zoanthids have palytoxin!!!
The hard part is to figure out the ones that have a part from the ones that do have.
That's the reason to just be careful and handle all our zoas as having the poison.

"In 2007, a man from Woodbridge, Virginia was rushed into hospital after inhaling an aerosolised version of one of the deadliest poisons on the planet. He was not the victim of a terrorist attack. He wasn’t working in a biohazard laboratory. He was trying to clean out his fish tank.
The man, who posts on the Reef Central Forums as Steveoutlaw, was trying to get rid of a colony of zoanthids – a relative of corals and sea anemones – that was infesting his aquarium rocks. He had heard that boiling water would do the trick. When he tried it, he accidentally inhaled some of the steam.
Twenty minutes later, his nose was running and he had a cough. Four hours later, his breathing was laboured and he was headed to the emergency room. By the time he arrived, he was suffering from severe coughing fits and chest pains. He was stabilised, but he developed asthma and a persistent cough, and had to use steroids and an inhaler for at least two months.
The reason for his sudden illness was palytoxin, a speciality of zoanthids, and the second deadliest poison in the natural world. One gram of the stuff will kill more than a hundred million mice. This poison, liberated by the boiling water, had risen into Steveoutlaw’s airways in a cloud of steam.
Palytoxin is shrouded in legend. Hawaiian islanders tell of a cursed village in Maui, whose members defied a shark god that had been eating their fellow villagers. They dismembered and burned the god, before scattering his ashes in a tide pool near the town of Hana. Shortly after, a mysterious type of seaweed started growing in the pool. It became known as “limu-make-o-Hana” (deadly seaweed of Hana). If smeared on a spear’s point, it could instantly kill its victims.
The shark god may have been an elaborate fiction, but in 1961, Philip Helfrich and John Shupe actually found the legendary pool. Within it, they discovered a new species of zoanthid called Palythoa toxica. The limu-make-o-Hana was real, but it wasn’t seaweed – it was a type of colonial anemone. In 1971, Richard Moore and Paul Scheuer isolated the chemical responsible for the zoanthid’s lethal powers – palytoxin. Now, Jonathan Deeds from the US Food and Drug Administration has found that the poison is readily available in aquarium stores.
Deeds was investigating a case of palytoxin poisoning when he heard about Steveoutlaw’s unfortunate incident. He visited the man, collected a sample of the offending zoanthid, and found that it was indeed heavy with palytoxin. It wasn’t hard to get his hands on more. Deeds bought 15 more colonies from three aquarium stores in the Washington DC area, of the same species that gave Steveoutlaw his whiff of toxic steam. Three of the samples yielded even more poison. Every gram contained enough palytoxin to kill 300,000 mice, or around 80 people.
Unfortunately, Deeds has no clear message for aquarium owners. Some of the zoanthid species that he tested weren’t toxic at all, and indeed, many people claim to have handled zoanthids for years without problems. However, those that contain palytoxin can kill if even a small amount of the poison gets on the skin. And, as Steveoutlaw found, even breathing in an aerosolised version of the poison is a bad idea. The problem is that telling zoanthids apart is incredibly difficult – Deeds only did it with any degree of certainty using genetic analysis.
And tracing the origins of these animals isn’t easy either. One of the aquarium owners who Deeds visited said that he got his zoanthids through mixed containers of corals and rock fragments, known as “frags”, with no information about their origins. The animals can be accidentally introduced on unsuspecting rocks. And many aquarium owners will break the rocks up themselves and exchange them between friends.
As Deeds wrote, “the legendary limu appears to be exacting its ancient curse once again, but this time upon unsuspecting marine home aquarists.” Owners are “often unaware of the deadly poisons they are being exposed to”.
PS Venom enthusiasts know that the potency of poisons is measured using the LD-50 – the dose that will kill half a group of mice after a set time. The most venomous snake has an LD-50 of 25 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. For tetrodotoxin, the equivalent figure is 8 micrograms. For batrachotoxin, the poison from the skin of poison dart frogs, it’s 2-7 micrograms. For palytoxin, it’s 0.3 micrograms (or 300 nanograms).
Reference: Deeds, J., Handy, S., White, K., & Reimer, J. (2011). Palytoxin Found in Palythoa sp. Zoanthids (Anthozoa, Hexacorallia) Sold in the Home Aquarium Trade PLoS ONE, 6 (4) DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0018235
"

From:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/no...tore-near-you/

Cheers!

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Old 10/12/2012, 02:24 AM   #82
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And an article from the Coral Biome site showing the high concentration of palytoxin in Palythoa grandis in comparison to a Zoanthus sp.:

Palythoa grandis: cautions required!
Posted on July 20, 2012
Palytoxins are back under the spotlight! Coral Biome breeds in its facility some potentially toxic zoanthids. To get the bottom of it, we carried out a study based upon the same protocol described by Jonathan Deeds and his colleagues in the “Plos One” journal in 2011, a publication previously discussed on our blog.

First, we investigated the phylogenetic relationships of some species including the famous Palythoa grandis, a rare endemic species living in deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico. The determination of the phylogenetic relationships of this species is important because, according to Deeds and coll., it exists a close link between the membership of a species to a given clade and its potential toxicity. Therefore we analyzed the DNA sequence coding for the large subunit mitochondrial ribosomal RNA (rRNA16S) of P. grandis. Our phylogenetic reconstruction suggested the potential toxicity of this species. Indeed, P. grandis grouped with P. heliodiscus, a species known for its high concentration of palytoxin and listed among the most toxic zoanthids in the Deeds study.

To confirm the toxicity of P. grandis, we performed a liquid chromatography analysis of a mixture from a polyp from P. grandis in ethanol. One other unknown species of Palythoa sp. have also been analyzed as well as one specimen of Zoanthus sp. from the Vice Zoa complex.

Chromatography principle is to separate different molecules from a mixture. In our study, the detection of molecules was achieved by UV at a wavelength of maximum absorption for palytoxin (263 nm). The material and method used were similar to the Deeds and coll. protocol. These authors observed a retention time for palytoxin about 13 min, a duration we also observed in our analysis for P. grandis (A). A result consistent with its phylogenetic position and its close relationships with the known toxic species P. heliodiscus. The second specimen belonging to an indeterminate species of Palythoa sp. also showed a peak of palytoxin (B) while the Zoanthus Vice Zoa (C) did not. The absence of peak for Zoanthus considered here as a negative control confirms the higher toxicity of Palythoa versus Zoanthus as previously shown in the Deeds and coll. study.
Therefore, P. grandis likely contains a concentration of palytoxin potentially dangerous for Human. Some cultured species in our tanks exhibit high rates of palytoxin, important enough to justify elementary precautions when handling them: use of gloves and protective goggles.

Special thanks to Robert at the University of Aix-Marseille for his help in chromatographic analysis. This work was directed by Pierre Maziani, undergraduate student of Biology. A big thank to its availability, its rigor … and good humor!
"

From:
http://www.coralbiome.com/2012/07/pa...ions-required/

Lets have fun learning!!

Cheers,
Grandis.


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Old 11/21/2012, 10:07 AM   #83
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I got squirTed by one on my frag rack while doing a water change and flushed my eye with saline and still had side effects including eye spazams intense watering And a sand paper feeling and it was by a eagle eye zoanthid. I was told to be glad it wasn't a nuclear green or brown paly

that there electronic note pad


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Old 11/24/2012, 12:35 AM   #84
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Jesus... That is terrifying


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Old 12/26/2012, 11:44 PM   #85
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Here we go:

Yesterday, Christmas Day, I took my kids to the beach to search for polyps and have fun. Of course fun to them equals to find polyps daddy doesn't have yet!!! Good kids!!!

We didn't collect anything, just looked around the polyps, but nothing new and we had to touch the rocks to make sure we wouldn't fall because they were really slippery with algae. Just don't bring the hands in the mouth and eyes, right?

They had some renovations going on in the beach's bathroom/showers and we simply "washed" our hands in the ocean before we came to the car.

My oldest apparently touched one of the rocks with Protopalythoa spp. and Zoanthus spp. and perhaps somehow had his hand/fingers in his mouth.

Last night he began to feel some small pain in the roof of the mouth.
It is a little swollen and sore with round reddish marks now.
I've asked him to describe the taste, if so, and he said "metal". He is still a little dizzy, but doesn't feel too bad at all. He eats, drinks and act very normal, thank God!

Just one more example here!!

My kids know very well about zoas and they are reminded every single time we go out to search for polyps!!! While he was touching the rocks, the toxin found it's way. No cuts/wounds! The biggest problem was probably not to wash the hands really well with fresh water afterwards, like we do all the time before getting in the car!!!!

Be very, very careful!!!!

After this I'm seriousply considering about having my little ones around during those special trips!!!
Too bad! They enjoy so much!

Grandis.


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Old 12/28/2012, 02:07 AM   #86
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Update:
My son is felling much better and by mid day today he had no more issues.

Here is another thing for you all:

HOW NOT TO FRAG ZOAS!
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...frag-zoanthids

Have fun! Be safe!

Grandis.


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Old 02/09/2013, 10:24 AM   #87
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OMG this happened to me. Palytoxin in the eye at 18:00, at the hospital by midnight in agonizing pain. Hydrocodone would not stop the pain. I've had flash burn before from my early days in a welding shop, and that was comparable, but much shorter in duration. It took two solid weeks to fully recover vision. Be careful out there.

Oh the cause... I ripped nuclear greens off a rock. I washed my hands thoroughly, but must have gotten something on my shirt.


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Old 03/13/2013, 09:42 PM   #88
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wow thats crazy! glad everything went okay!


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Old 03/16/2013, 03:09 PM   #89
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Automotive hand cleaner (like Goop, or Gojo with abrasives) will really clean the stuff off the hands. Just don't reach in the tank afterwards.


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Old 03/19/2013, 02:33 PM   #90
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Wow...I am glad I took the time to read this thread... I have to say I could stand to be a little more careful when dealing with my aquarium and its inhabitants. From now on, I will make sure I have gloves, and some form of eye protection when dealing with my Zoa's.


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Old 03/19/2013, 02:46 PM   #91
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I concur with the dizzyness, metal taste, I also had body aches and flu like symptoms after getting tagged by palytoxin... didn't know I had paly slime after fragging, nose got itchy from the fumes of slime, didn't know my sleeves had slime as I rubbed my nose slime, got on my nose and lips. Didn't matter that I washed mouth, gargled etc... felt sick for next several hours.

USE YOUR PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT when Fragging.


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Old 03/25/2013, 11:02 PM   #92
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Does anyone have any real guide to which members of the familily have the highest concentrations and which have the lowest?


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Old 03/25/2013, 11:18 PM   #93
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http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/no.../#.UVEg2hluy58

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=88064

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0018235


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Old 04/03/2013, 01:43 PM   #94
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I've also had palytoxin's in my eye but I only received itchiness and irritation. I do believe it's worse if you happen to be more sensitive and/or if you get more of it in your eye.


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Old 04/13/2013, 07:04 PM   #95
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zoanthids are extremely poisonous!!!!! I have heard stories about people boiling rocks to rid them of zoas...... DO NOT DO THIS..... the poison will leave the animal in the water vapor and if inhaled is extremely toxic and has the potential to kill multiple people! so beautiful yet so deadly


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Old 04/17/2013, 03:14 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimXRS View Post
I've also had palytoxin's in my eye but I only received itchiness and irritation. I do believe it's worse if you happen to be more sensitive and/or if you get more of it in your eye.
I think the concentration varies between different Paly's. Some may be harmless but others can surely be deadly. Unfortunatly there is a little guide to which is which so you need to super cautious with all of them.


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Old 04/25/2013, 08:45 AM   #97
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I never really knew or heard about this
I am so glad i know know
This is a good read


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Old 05/27/2013, 02:31 PM   #98
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Wow. Definitely will remember this each time I work on my tank.


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Old 06/04/2013, 08:31 AM   #99
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Getting some safety gear asap


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Old 06/15/2013, 12:20 PM   #100
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I'm going to bump this thread.. this morning when I was removing corals from frag plugs (including zoas) I accidentally hit one of the zoas and some brownish liquid came out. None of it (or anything else actually) came up and hit me, but it was in the water bin that I was using to hold the frags.

I've read that the palytoxin is a white substance.. My question is.. what is normally done to clean up surfaces and hands/etc? I've read that soap/water is the best bet.. Also, how long does the toxin stay in the air/on dry surfaces? Let's say the plug got some toxin on there, and it's on my work bench in the basement (dry).. I read the half-life is 55-85 minutes.

How about the tank.. when is it "safe" to put your hands back in the tank after introducing freshly cut zoas, or ones that have been removed from frag plugs?


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