Georgi's 40B rimless

[tank o tang]

Use a piece of eggcrete from the top of the baffle to the top of the sump. No way their going to get over it. Looks great.

[Chrome239]

Nice build, the fact that most of it is DIY, is even better.

I must have missed something in the pictures. I see the drain line going to the skimmer section of the sump, but how is the fuge fed? Just curious because I am getting ready to retro a 30 gallon for a sump under my 90, and would like to set it up similar to yours.

[terahz]

Jeff, I don't care if they move around, I doubt they can do any damage. I will, however, cover my RO/DI section. Don't want suicidal snails making me to dose Ammonia enriched RO/DI water

Chrome239, the fuge is fed from the return pump with a T. Two valves regulate the flow distribution between DT and Fuge:

[terahz]

Merry Christmas everyone!

Just wanted to post the new par readings with the tighter optics. As I said before, it basically doubled the par over the rocks (middle section of the tank) and cut the light on the glass to 1/2-1/3 which I think is ideal. I don't want light on the glass, but over the rocks.

Anyway, here it is:

[scolley]

Georgi - GREAT documentation! Thanks.

This is going to give you more variance in the light... which could be a good thing, since there can be a pretty wide variance in light needs. I find it interesting that in the middle, the difference between just under the surface and the bottom is barely 100 par. I assume that's primarily a function of a 40 breeder being a somewhat shallow tank... That's what, maybe 16 inches of water?

So, from what I'm seeing here, your light hungry corals will on the island in the middle, and the less light needy will be around the edges. Is that the plan?

[ditka]

it's been a month.

How be the tank?

[terahz]

Tank is ok, I've made a little change in the aquascape with the addition of a few mag racks (rocks that sit on the glass with magnets). Other than that, I'm in the process of sucking out my sand. I'll be changing it with a bit coarser because between the MP40 and the pistol shrimp, that sand can't stay on the bottom...

Apart from that I'm also having trouble keeping SPS. Zoas seem to be doing fine, but sps just die, usually from stn. Parameters... my salinity is constant (1.26), magnesium is 1400+, calcium is around 500, phosphates are undetectable (both with salifert and hanna digital meter), nitrates are undetectable (chaeto in the sump doubles in a month)... the only thing that is not "by the book" is my PH/Alk. Because Alk is a bit on the low side (around 8) and me not opening windows, the ph of the tank swings between 7.8 and 8.1. I'm planning on setting up a CO2 scrubber for the skimmer intake to help my PH a bit and I'll be setting up the alk doser next weekend. Still, nothing is that much out of the ordinary. I was able to grow SPS in my10 nano without even monitoring most of these parameters.

So the fun never ends

Also I got my hands on a really nice microscope and I've been looking at some amazing (and creepy) things in my tank I'll try to find an adapter for my camera so I can take a few snaps.

[Kolognekoral]

Originally Posted by terahz

Tank is ok, I've made a little change in the aquascape with the addition of a few mag racks (rocks that sit on the glass with magnets). Other than that, I'm in the process of sucking out my sand. I'll be changing it with a bit coarser because between the MP40 and the pistol shrimp, that sand can't stay on the bottom...

Apart from that I'm also having trouble keeping SPS. Zoas seem to be doing fine, but sps just die, usually from stn. Parameters... my salinity is constant (1.26), magnesium is 1400+, calcium is around 500, phosphates are undetectable (both with salifert and hanna digital meter), nitrates are undetectable (chaeto in the sump doubles in a month)... the only thing that is not "by the book" is my PH/Alk. Because Alk is a bit on the low side (around 8) and me not opening windows, the ph of the tank swings between 7.8 and 8.1. I'm planning on setting up a CO2 scrubber for the skimmer intake to help my PH a bit and I'll be setting up the alk doser next weekend. Still, nothing is that much out of the ordinary. I was able to grow SPS in my10 nano without even monitoring most of these parameters.

So the fun never ends

Also I got my hands on a really nice microscope and I've been looking at some amazing (and creepy) things in my tank I'll try to find an adapter for my camera so I can take a few snaps.

Georgi,

your tank parameters are actually fine. Stability is the most important criteria for sps, or any corals.

Alk: perfect at 8dKH. You don't want it higher with ULNS, otherwise you get necrosis and tip burn.
pH: 7.9-8.1 is fine. Only worry when it dips below 7.8. Stability is very important in the long run, but day/night cycles are normal for aquariums and difficult to prevent.

Your Ca+ is a bit high. Let it drop to 400-420, which is NSW.
Mg+ is a bit high as well. Aim for 1250-1350. Most NSW is 1280.

These ions are extremely important and the ratio should remain constant. Higher values can damage the bio-system. Do you check you K+ (potassium). Many corals and inverts (Montis, shrimps, etc.) require potassium for their growth. Not easy to check, but using a salt with the correct balance and 10% weekly wc will keep this under control, amongst other elements we cannot test for.

If you are seeing RTN, it may be a nutrient decifiency for some corals. Do you add aminos or other nutritive products for the corals? Better yet, describe your current routine and maybe I can help. PM me, if you wish. It sound like you simply need a bit of tweeking.

Jamie

[terahz]

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

Alk: perfect at 8dKH. You don't want it higher with ULNS, otherwise you get necrosis and tip burn.

I've read about this and that's why I did not try to bring it up earlier, but at this point I just want to take one element at a time and fudge it a bit to see how it affects my corals. Maybe after I setup the doser I will just leave it at around 8.

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

pH: 7.9-8.1 is fine. Only worry when it dips below 7.8. Stability is very important in the long run, but day/night cycles are normal for aquariums and difficult to prevent.

I am worried because every once in a while it will drop under 7.8. That's why i want to setup the CO2 scrubber soon. Hopefully that will keep it above 7.9 even when we don't open the windows for a few days in a row.

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

Your Ca+ is a bit high. Let it drop to 400-420, which is NSW.
Mg+ is a bit high as well. Aim for 1250-1350. Most NSW is 1280.
These ions are extremely important and the ratio should remain constant. Higher values can damage the bio-system.

I thought Ca and Mg can stay higher without any problems. Also it is a bit of catch 22. My salt (coralife) mixes to ~520 CA and 1550Mg. And without any sps to use it, it just stays high. I don't dose any of them. Should I get a bucket of salt with lower Ca and Mg and start using that for water change until I have some SPS that can actually make use of the high Ca and Mg?

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

Do you check you K+ (potassium). Many corals and inverts (Montis, shrimps, etc.) require potassium for their growth. Not easy to check, but using a salt with the correct balance and 10% weekly wc will keep this under control, amongst other elements we cannot test for.

I do not check for potassium. I do have 2 cleaner and 1 pistol shrim though and they seem to molt regularly.

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

If you are seeing RTN, it may be a nutrient decifiency for some corals. Do you add aminos or other nutritive products for the corals? Better yet, describe your current routine and maybe I can help. PM me, if you wish. It sound like you simply need a bit of tweeking.

Jamie

It is actually very slow TN. Most frags will survive fully open their polyps for about a week after I add them, then they fade and then tissue starts to die from the edges. Once that starts it takes another 2-3 weeks for a small frag to die. I have seen RTN in my old tank where a frag would die within hours. Nothing like that has happened here.

I do not add anything to my tank at this point. I used to feed 3 times a day (tiiny amounts of pellets and flakes via auto feeder) + some mysis or homemade food every 2-3 nights. Now I've switched to feeding just the frozen food once a day.

Also once a week I target feed my gorgonia with cylopeze.

Every once in a while I'd soak the food in selcon and/or garlic extract.

I do 5G weekly water changes, use filter sock for 3-4 days a week, run carbon and GFO (75/25 ratio in a single reactor) 24/7.

At this point my 3 goals are to change the sand slowly, setup the alk doser and setup the CO2 scrubber for the skimmer. The last two are purely for stability so as long as I don't mess something up, should only help the tank.

Let's have the discussion here so that other people can benefit.


Thanks much!

[Kolognekoral]

Originally Posted by terahz

I've read about this and that's why I did not try to bring it up earlier, but at this point I just want to take one element at a time and fudge it a bit to see how it affects my corals. Maybe after I setup the doser I will just leave it at around 8.


I am worried because every once in a while it will drop under 7.8. That's why i want to setup the CO2 scrubber soon. Hopefully that will keep it above 7.9 even when we don't open the windows for a few days in a row.

Occaisional dips are fine, IME. I've found pH less of an issue as keeping a stable alk-Ca-Mg ratio. These are all bound together. Alk is simply the available carbonate (CO3) used for calcification (amongst other things). When this is not available, then the process cannot take place. A common problem is with CO2 driven reactors for calcium/magnesium. CO2 is an acid and throws the pH down, while boosting the Alk. What you get is a more reactive water chemistry. I am convinced this is where the tip burn comes from. When there is little nutrient in the water column, due to carbon dosing or GFO, there is little for the extra CO2, CO3 molecules to react with. The next best thing is living material. Normally it is not a deadly reaction, but certainly unsightly

I'm not sure what you are thinking in terms of a CO2 scrubber and wonder if this is a viable approach. Have others been experimenting with similar technologies in marine aquariums? I only know of this from industrial use. Not that it won't work, but this is a new approach to me.

I thought Ca and Mg can stay higher without any problems. Also it is a bit of catch 22. My salt (coralife) mixes to ~520 CA and 1550Mg. And without any sps to use it, it just stays high. I don't dose any of them. Should I get a bucket of salt with lower Ca and Mg and start using that for water change until I have some SPS that can actually make use of the high Ca and Mg?

I would simply look for a new salt, period. Coralife is not mimicing NSW. By boosting these elements, one is continually making smaller, but abrupt changes in water chemistry. The salts make-up should be the same as your desired water chemistry, not higher or lower. Supplementing for the macro elements must be done in any case to maintain a stable environment. The weekly water changes are used to replace the microelements. Have you checked into H2Ocean or Reefer's Best? I use the latter plus a commercial blend from a friends marine wholesale business. I aim for classic NSW levels.

I do not check for potassium. I do have 2 cleaner and 1 pistol shrim though and they seem to molt regularly.

Sounds like this is not a problem, but with more corals, you should keep an eye on things. Unfortunately both of the currently available test kits are crap to read. It is still a bit of a stab in the dark.

It is actually very slow TN. Most frags will survive fully open their polyps for about a week after I add them, then they fade and then tissue starts to die from the edges. Once that starts it takes another 2-3 weeks for a small frag to die. I have seen RTN in my old tank where a frag would die within hours. Nothing like that has happened here.

OK, from what you describe, there is something in the water chemistry that is killing these corals. My first suspects are always nutrients, which means make additional tests with other test kits. I have recently found some huge discrepancies between top brand and feel uncertain about making brand recommendations at the moment. Just try to get some cross references to be more certain. I have, as most of us, experienced this a number of times. Water flow may be a part of the problem, or lighting (the base being shadowed. Also too much light can kill frags. Do you check the water chemistry of the shop water? This kind of shock most corals deal with, but not all. It's a hard nut to crack as there are typically multiple vectors involved.

I do not add anything to my tank at this point. I used to feed 3 times a day (tiiny amounts of pellets and flakes via auto feeder) + some mysis or homemade food every 2-3 nights. Now I've switched to feeding just the frozen food once a day.

Also once a week I target feed my gorgonia with cylopeze.

Every once in a while I'd soak the food in selcon and/or garlic extract.

I do 5G weekly water changes, use filter sock for 3-4 days a week, run carbon and GFO (75/25 ratio in a single reactor) 24/7.

At this point my 3 goals are to change the sand slowly, setup the alk doser and setup the CO2 scrubber for the skimmer. The last two are purely for stability so as long as I don't mess something up, should only help the tank.

Let's have the discussion here so that other people can benefit.


Thanks much!

I'll comment more later, as I have to suddenly run...to dinner.

Jamie

[terahz]

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

I'm not sure what you are thinking in terms of a CO2 scrubber and wonder if this is a viable approach. Have others been experimenting with similar technologies in marine aquariums? I only know of this from industrial use. Not that it won't work, but this is a new approach to me.

It is actually quite simple. A plastic bottle with some soda lime in it, a few holes on the bottom. Skimmer intake is glued to the cup of the bottle so as it sucks air, the air goes through the soda lime. It is basically the same way breathers work for diving. They just circulate the air through soda lime and them mix it back using a computer. A few people have done it here on reefcentral and report good success of removing CO2.

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

I would simply look for a new salt, period. Coralife is not mimicing NSW. By boosting these elements, one is continually making smaller, but abrupt changes in water chemistry. The salts make-up should be the same as your desired water chemistry, not higher or lower. Supplementing for the macro elements must be done in any case to maintain a stable environment. The weekly water changes are used to replace the microelements. Have you checked into H2Ocean or Reefer's Best? I use the latter plus a commercial blend from a friends marine wholesale business. I aim for classic NSW levels.

I might have to do that... In my 10G nano I was using the same brand and sps were fine. I might look for alternatives though. Also changing salt will take a while with standard 10% water changes per week with salt mix of 400Ca, it will take me half a year to reduce CA to that range I will do some research on other salts.

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

OK, from what you describe, there is something in the water chemistry that is killing these corals. My first suspects are always nutrients, which means make additional tests with other test kits. I have recently found some huge discrepancies between top brand and feel uncertain about making brand recommendations at the moment.

Well I've checked Phosphates with two tests, I will see what the local club members have and will bring a bottle of water to test at our next meeting. Unfortunately I think almost all of them use Salifert (like myself).

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

Do you check the water chemistry of the shop water?

No, I don't do any checks. Just try to do good acclimation when I get them.

Originally Posted by Kolognekoral

I'll comment more later, as I have to suddenly run...to dinner.

Jamie

Thanks Jamie. Enjoy your dinner

Georgi

[Kolognekoral]

OK, I am now digesting a hearty turkish sandwich and will attempt to add more bits of wisdom over a nice German beer.

I agree, one should discuss on the thread, feedback and other experiences/ideas are the best of the soup.

Why do you want to change the sand? Slowly is the way, as it is the main NO3 taker in most aquariums.

I don't think you are overfeeding. I feed a lot, it is just a matter of being enough for the inhabitants, plus of the proper kind for them. My fish love flakes, pellets and nori, so they do get quite a bit of this, even though pellets are notorious as PO4 carriers. As a tank matures and more smaller life forms establish themselves, it reaches a point of stability whereby it can handle extra food/nutrients. You gorgonian will need good feeding to survive.

I've never had good luck keeping gorgonians with sps for some reason. Also, lps can be less than happy in ULNS tanks. It could be a substance that one or the other gives off, that make life for the other difficult. I've seen large (2000l) tanks with both, but smaller tanks are rarely successful. There may be chemistry going on that we don't understand. I really don't know.

Jamie

[RTMA]

G - if you want to bring a water sample, I can test it for you tonight.

I keep my Alk around 8.5-9. CA around 450 and MG around 1300-1400. SPS growth and color is fine, although I am having trouble coloring up my chalices, which could be the lighting areas I have them in or they just don't color up in my sort of ULN setup. I've also seen my ph dip into the high 7's, in the summer it is usually 8.2-3. SPS doesn't seem to care one bit actually.

Hope you figure it out, I got a lot of SPS when you are ready

[IDrawFish]

Obviously late in this thread but awesome build, love the detail in everything especially the par readings and such... great job

[terahz]

Thanks

[Floyd R Turbo]

terahz thanks for pointing me to this thread and those heat sinks. I'm thinking that I'll do as one other suggested, make the components moveable. I've got time on my build to figure out how to do it.

I didn't see any info posted on your driver, but it looks like you did the DIY LED driver board and meanwell 24V constant voltage supplies, am I right? Post some info on what you used when you get a chance.

Awesome build!

[terahz]

Thanks! I made the DIY drivers with the CAT chips. The PSU is a 24V 6.5A switching power supply for MPJA.

[TheFishMan65]

terahz, sorry I missed this one when it started. Keep up the good work!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Cool, that's what I'm doing too. Good source for the PSs too thanks. I'd rather buy new than on eBay...

[terahz]

Not much of an update here, but a little video from yesterday:

http://vimeo.com/21261582

As always with LEDs the colors are hard to match on video but I did try to match them as much as I could from iMovie.

Ugh, it is still converting on Vimeo... come back in about an hour

[Obi-dad]

Originally Posted by terahz

Not much of an update here, but a little video from yesterday:

http://vimeo.com/21261582

As always with LEDs the colors are hard to match on video but I did try to match them as much as I could from iMovie.

Ugh, it is still converting on Vimeo... come back in about an hour

Nice! Now I want a 7D to replace my old 20D...

[terahz]

Well I'm finally done with the sand change!



I'll take a proper FTS on the weekend.

Also, I put together a little salifert cheat sheet that I've laminated and put on the inside of the door on my cabinet:
http://joro.geodar.com/images/aquari...eet%20v0.2.pdf

I have a plan to add some small shelves to the doors as well (inside) made of small tupperware, but that's postponed for a little bit.


What's next? It is automated water changes. The continuous/multiple-time-a-day way.

I've started gathering the hardware which includes a Masterflex drive, two pump heads, norprene tubing for the heads and HDPE tubing for the rest of the distance. I will keep it quite simple. 20G tote to be mixed once every ~6 weeks (yay!). One pump takes water out of the tank and into the drain, another takes water out of the 20G tote and into the tank. Easy.

Planned rate is 0.5G/day which will give me about 30% (~26% adjusted) water change per month. I got the 7017 heads and 20RPM drive so I will be running this thing for about 34 minutes per day (spread out during the day). If I want more change per month I just need to run the pump longer.

If all parts arrive before the weekend I'll be doing it this weekend. Otherwise expect photos next weekend.

[rjinct]

Originally Posted by terahz

What's next? It is automated water changes. The continuous/multiple-time-a-day way.

I've started gathering the hardware which includes a Masterflex drive, two pump heads, norprene tubing for the heads and HDPE tubing for the rest of the distance. I will keep it quite simple. 20G tote to be mixed once every ~6 weeks (yay!). One pump takes water out of the tank and into the drain, another takes water out of the 20G tote and into the tank. Easy.

Planned rate is 0.5G/day which will give me about 30% (~26% adjusted) water change per month. I got the 7017 heads and 20RPM drive so I will be running this thing for about 34 minutes per day (spread out during the day). If I want more change per month I just need to run the pump longer.

If all parts arrive before the weekend I'll be doing it this weekend. Otherwise expect photos next weekend.

Awesome! I did exact same thing (though with 7016 heads)...well I should say "I'm in process of doing..." I've been working on this for a while but finally am home during the week for a little while to monitor this. Should have mine up and running this w/e as well.

I'm curious how you hooked up the HDPE tubing to the noprene. Did you use some type of fitting? I ended up inserting the HDPE tubing into the noprene directly and using a zip tie to keep it snug but not sure it even needs that...but I'm sure there is a more elegant solution.

[terahz]

I just ordered the tubing yesterday so I don't have it yet, but my plan is also to just stuff it inside the norprene. The 3/8 soft to 1/4 hard fittings were just too expensive to justify "nice"

[Kolognekoral]

Hey, Georgi,

any updates? Pics?

Hope all is well,