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Unread 10/03/2010, 08:16 PM   #1
gp2
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Can a cleaner wrasse cure ich?

So while setting up a QT/Hospital tank I stopped in the LFS to pick up a filter for it. The employee, who is very knowledgeable, suggested cleaner shrimp/wrasse to help out. So what the heck I bought them and tonight there is quite a difference in the fish's external disease load. I have spent the last few days researching the natural life cycle of marine ich and have no real illusions that it will be the be all and end all but I am curious what everyone's experience has been. I plan on transferring the worst infected fish tomorrow to the hospital tank and starting hypo. I am currently waiting on my refractometer to be delivered...


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Unread 10/03/2010, 08:24 PM   #2
Dustin1300
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I think the cleaner will help prevent but don't believe it is a cure. Once you get the refractometer....1) Calibrate 2) Get water to 1.008 and put all fish in for 6 weeks leaving tank fallow to rid it of ich and starve them as they will not have fish to thrive off of. 3) Slowly raise the salinity of the QT hypo tank to 1.025 (whatever you DT's SG is)

Good luck and let us know if you have any questions. Fish can be put in water with much lower SG immediately but a large spike is the transfer that stresses them.


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Unread 10/03/2010, 08:36 PM   #3
Sisterlimonpot
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simple answer... NO

The only way is like your research has lead you to is to treat all the fish in your tank with either hypo or copper. There are other methods out there but these 2 are the tried and true ways. Good luck.


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Unread 10/03/2010, 09:54 PM   #4
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What made the external infection look better was time. The cleaner was just a coincidence. The visible Ich on my fish showed up, maxed out in 48 hours, then started to go away, and this would be about the same time you got the cleaner shrimp.


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Unread 10/03/2010, 10:07 PM   #5
gp2
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roger that, Moved several fish tonight will move the rest either this week or in stages. I will not be moving most of the fish into the tank they came from as I got a larger DT. I am a bit worried the QT may not tolerate the bioload of all the fish at once. Not many of the fish are actually showing any signs of ich. (Although the ones that are have significant spots.)


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Unread 10/03/2010, 10:41 PM   #6
Sisterlimonpot
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What fish do you have? there are some goby's, butterflies and other fish that won't tolerate nor survive hyposalinity. Make sure you do your homework to ensure these guys will make it through, if they can't you'll have to use a copper treatment on them.


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Unread 10/03/2010, 11:00 PM   #7
gp2
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Hipo, purple and red sea sailfin tangs. large tomato clown, 6 line wrasse, possum wrasse (i believe is the name), coral beauty, and now the cleaner wrasse


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Unread 10/04/2010, 01:55 AM   #8
Jstdv8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palting View Post
What made the external infection look better was time. The cleaner was just a coincidence. The visible Ich on my fish showed up, maxed out in 48 hours, then started to go away, and this would be about the same time you got the cleaner shrimp.
Ding ding ding!


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Unread 10/04/2010, 05:23 AM   #9
greenbean36191
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No, they can't cure ich for the simple reason that they don't eat ich. They feed on juvenile parasitic crustaceans, mucus, and dead skin; that last one being the most significant for hobbyists.

Because the actual ich parasite is located under the skin of the host, it's not susceptible to attack by cleaners except for the very short period when it's burrowing in. That naturally occurs in the wee hours of the morning while the cleaners are asleep, and only lasts a few minutes anyway, so in reality there is no period when cleaners can eat the parasite without wounding the fish. Even in studies where cleaners have been added to tanks and allowed to clean specifically during the attachment period, they ate so few of the parasites that there was no statistically significant change in parasite loads.

While they won't eat the parasite itself, the fact that the number of white spots is reduced isn't necessarily due entirely to coincidence. However, the white spots are not the parasite. The size of the parasite itself is at the low end of what the human eye can resolve. If you have 20/20 vision, are sitting close enough, and it's on a dark-colored fish, you could in theory see it, but just barely. The white spots are just nodules of damaged skin overlying where the parasite is embedded. Most cleaners will be more than happy to eat damaged skin, so they can directly reduce the appearance of white spots. However, removing the white spots does nothing to cure the fish of the parasite.


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Unread 10/04/2010, 06:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbean36191 View Post
No, they can't cure ich for the simple reason that they don't eat ich. They feed on juvenile parasitic crustaceans, mucus, and dead skin; that last one being the most significant for hobbyists.

Because the actual ich parasite is located under the skin of the host, it's not susceptible to attack by cleaners except for the very short period when it's burrowing in. That naturally occurs in the wee hours of the morning while the cleaners are asleep, and only lasts a few minutes anyway, so in reality there is no period when cleaners can eat the parasite without wounding the fish. Even in studies where cleaners have been added to tanks and allowed to clean specifically during the attachment period, they ate so few of the parasites that there was no statistically significant change in parasite loads.

While they won't eat the parasite itself, the fact that the number of white spots is reduced isn't necessarily due entirely to coincidence. However, the white spots are not the parasite. The size of the parasite itself is at the low end of what the human eye can resolve. If you have 20/20 vision, are sitting close enough, and it's on a dark-colored fish, you could in theory see it, but just barely. The white spots are just nodules of damaged skin overlying where the parasite is embedded. Most cleaners will be more than happy to eat damaged skin, so they can directly reduce the appearance of white spots. However, removing the white spots does nothing to cure the fish of the parasite.

Great response. I've always wondered about this and now I know.
BTW, I've been absent for quite some time and must say I'm glad to see you have'nt changed your avatar.


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Unread 10/04/2010, 06:03 AM   #11
gp2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbean36191 View Post
No, they can't cure ich for the simple reason that they don't eat ich. They feed on juvenile parasitic crustaceans, mucus, and dead skin; that last one being the most significant for hobbyists.

Because the actual ich parasite is located under the skin of the host, it's not susceptible to attack by cleaners except for the very short period when it's burrowing in. That naturally occurs in the wee hours of the morning while the cleaners are asleep, and only lasts a few minutes anyway, so in reality there is no period when cleaners can eat the parasite without wounding the fish. Even in studies where cleaners have been added to tanks and allowed to clean specifically during the attachment period, they ate so few of the parasites that there was no statistically significant change in parasite loads.

While they won't eat the parasite itself, the fact that the number of white spots is reduced isn't necessarily due entirely to coincidence. However, the white spots are not the parasite. The size of the parasite itself is at the low
end of what the human eye can resolve. If you have 20/20 vision, are sitting close enough, and it's on a dark-colored fish, you could in theory see it, but just barely. The white spots are just nodules of damaged skin overlying where
the parasite is embedded. Most cleaners will be more than happy to eat
damaged skin, so they can directly reduce the appearance of white spots. However, removing the white spots does nothing to cure the fish of the parasite.
Thank you, that makes total sense to me. Regardless, the worst affectd fish are starting hypo now.
Greg


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Unread 10/04/2010, 06:19 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by gp2 View Post
Hipo, purple and red sea sailfin tangs. large tomato clown, 6 line wrasse, possum wrasse (i believe is the name), coral beauty, and now the cleaner wrasse
Wrasse won't tolerate copper, but they all should tolerate hyposalinity. Make sure to keep feeding Nori to your tangs.

You'll either need a big QT or several smaller ones for this many fish. Make sure to keep the original tank fishless for 6 weeks, otherwise you'll only be putting the treated fish back to an infected tank. If it helps you any, here is my hyposalinity thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1892446


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Current Tank Info: Incept 3/2010, 150 RR, 50g sump, 20g fuge, 150w 15K MH x3, T5 actinics x8, moonlight LED x6, 1400gph return, Koralia 1400 x4, 300 g skimmer, 4 tangs, 2 mandarins, 2 perc, 6 line, 3 cardinals, 2 firefish, SPS, LPS, zoas, palys, shrooms, clam
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Unread 10/04/2010, 06:22 PM   #13
gp2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palting View Post
Wrasse won't tolerate copper, but they all should tolerate hyposalinity. Make sure to keep feeding Nori to your tangs.

You'll either need a big QT or several smaller ones for this many fish. Make sure to keep the original tank fishless for 6 weeks, otherwise you'll only be putting the treated fish back to an infected tank. If it helps you any, here is my hyposalinity thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1892446
I am QTing them in a 65 g and then moving them into a new display....


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Unread 10/04/2010, 06:40 PM   #14
jonbry123
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Also the parasites appear to diminish because after they complete the parasitic cycle they fall off the fish and fall to the bottom of the tank then release the swimming forms which then look for a host.


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Unread 10/04/2010, 08:22 PM   #15
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FTR cleaner wrasses are one of those species better left in the ocean IMO. they hardly ever fare well in home aquaria and should be avoided to prevent a slow starving death for the fish.


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Unread 10/04/2010, 10:41 PM   #16
Jstdv8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palting View Post
Wrasse won't tolerate copper, but they all should tolerate hyposalinity. Make sure to keep feeding Nori to your tangs.

You'll either need a big QT or several smaller ones for this many fish. Make sure to keep the original tank fishless for 6 weeks, otherwise you'll only be putting the treated fish back to an infected tank. If it helps you any, here is my hyposalinity thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1892446
I Qted my sixline in copper for 6 weeks. he was just fine. The leopard wrass seems to be a copper wussy though according to rayn.


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Unread 10/05/2010, 07:56 AM   #17
scubasteve06
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Quote:
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I Qted my sixline in copper for 6 weeks. he was just fine. The leopard wrass seems to be a copper wussy though according to rayn.
Well IME you can drop a bomb on a six-line and they will be fine. Not really but they are very very hardy fish.


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