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Old 12/10/2010, 03:00 PM   #26
beuchat
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one hour later (again inflated):



and three hours later (deflated but not showing mesenterial filaments):



I have changed all the water with new antibiotic because I can read amonia.


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Old 12/10/2010, 03:38 PM   #27
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I seem to remember Todd once mentioning how he had noticed this oscillatory inflating/deflating - mouth tight/mouth open just prior to eventual deterioration. I don't think he had used antibiotics though. Hopefully it pulls through, though from what I know it isn't looking the greatest right now. Keep documenting this process, as hopefully we can gain some knowledge from this no matter what the eventual outcome.


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Old 12/10/2010, 03:47 PM   #28
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I had similar problem with a h. magnífica and recovered with the antibiotic. But this one is a very big anemone.

We will see...


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Old 12/11/2010, 04:31 PM   #29
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Updated now (1 day later):

Before the water change:







During water change of the 1 gal of water, with new sea water and antibiotic dosage ( 50 mg/l cloramfenicol)




After water change:




I wonder what is what I have marked in blue in the photos, knowing the polyp anatomy is:



I propose the following options:

1- Necrosis and dead tissue.
2- Some necrosis and mesenterial filaments.
3- Mesentarial filamentents and no necrosis.

Any ideas?



Last edited by beuchat; 12/11/2010 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 12/11/2010, 06:24 PM   #30
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I'm not sure, but I would say mesenteric filaments.


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Old 12/12/2010, 07:32 PM   #31
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+1 filaments.


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Old 12/12/2010, 09:17 PM   #32
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I hope the antibiotics work. It will be a beautiful anemone if you can save it.

Did Sprung and Delbeek list a reference for the info on gigantea asexual reproduction?

Gigantea is not known to reproduce asexually. By any means. It's very common for anemones to have deformities or abnormalities like yours. This is not evidence of reproduction. There are anemones that are known to reproduce in this fashion, but none of the host species are.


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Old 12/12/2010, 10:19 PM   #33
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I had a haddoni do this. I bought it and would not attach and would inflate and deflate. The inflated nem was just like a big jellyfish. I finally took it back to the store and recieved 1/2 credit for it. It later died at the store. This opened mouth is a bad sign. Hope it recovers for you.


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Old 12/13/2010, 06:01 AM   #34
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Gigantea is not known to reproduce asexually.

It is reported to do so in the wild:


Incorporating fine-scale seascape composition in an assessment of habitat quality for the giant sea anemone Stichodactyla gigantea in a coral reef shore zone
http://www.springerlink.com/content/...3/fulltext.pdf

from it:

"At the end of the study, 43 anemones existed: nine had disappeared, six had been newly found, and one actinia had divided into three small individuals."


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Old 12/13/2010, 06:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley View Post
Gigantea is not known to reproduce asexually.

It is reported to do so in the wild:


Incorporating fine-scale seascape composition in an assessment of habitat quality for the giant sea anemone Stichodactyla gigantea in a coral reef shore zone
http://www.springerlink.com/content/...3/fulltext.pdf

from it:

"At the end of the study, 43 anemones existed: nine had disappeared, six had been newly found, and one actinia had divided into three small individuals."
In the link, they reference, Fautin and Allan 1992, to support their statement that gigantea reproduce sexually and asexually. Fautin and Allen 1992 does not support such a statement. Here's a link if you would like to check it out for yourself. http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/intro.html

I also received this e-mail from Dr. Fautin on the subject.

"To prevent taking animals from the wild, some well-intentioned people propose cutting sea anemones in pieces to propagate them artificially. I am astonished how often I receive such proposals! It appears that only (or nearly only) anemones that naturally divide will predictably survive this treatment. Despite a persistent belief otherwise, anemones of most species do not reproduce asexually: only two of the 10 species that are natural hosts to anemonefishes do, and that may be a pretty good estimate of the prevalence of that ability among all anemones - 20% of species.

Perhaps the myth that division is how anemones reproduce is due in part to the feeling that anemones are "primitive" and division is a "primitive" attribute (in fact, anemones have been on earth far longer than humans, so can be argued to be more evolved!), and in part because pests such as *Aiptasia* are many peoples' ideas of a "typical" anemone. In fact, they are so prevalent and common precisely because they have that unusual ability - most of the 1000 or so species of anemones are less conspicuous because they do not occur in such densities at least in part because they lack that ability.

Another possible source of the misconception about anemone division is the practice of fragging corals. Clearly anemones and scleractinian corals are closely related. But that does not mean they can be treated identically. All anemones are solitary (even those that divide separate entirely once they have formed separate bodies, whereas polyps of corals in a colony remain physically attached to one another after they have arisen asexually). So fragging is dividing colonies (groups of polyps) into smaller colonies (fewer polyps per piece). By contrast, cutting an anemone into pieces is analogous to cutting you into two or more pieces; and for anemones of most species, the result would be precisely the same -- we would not have numerous identical yous, we would have no you.

Associated with an ability in some anemones to divide (into two or many pieces, depending on the species) is an ability to heal; obviously healing is necessary for regeneration. And although the reverse is not necessarily the case, it seems that animals that do not normally divide also have poor healing ability. So the prospects are dim for propagating anemones of species that do not naturally divide by cutting them into two or more pieces. One person who wrote to me rather triumphantly with a proposal to reduce collection from nature by cutting anemones in pieces as a means of artificial propagation was so pleased because he had cut in half two anemones of a species that does not reproduce asexually (as I recall, it was a species of *Stichodactyla*), and although both halves of one had died, both of the other had survived. So he started with two and ended with two, each half as large as the originals. I failed to see promise in this approach.

And even for the two species of anemonefish host anemones that seem to divide in nature, differences from place to place make me think there may be more than one species of what we think is a single species of each or there may be differences among individuals. Thus, even an anemone that is thought to be able to propagate asexually (*Entacmaea quadricolor*, the bubble-tip, and *Heteractis magnifica*, the "Ritteri" anemone) may die from being cut up.


Daphne Fautin


Daphne G. Fautin
Professor, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Curator, Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center
Haworth Hall
University of Kansas"


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Old 12/13/2010, 07:13 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley View Post
Gigantea is not known to reproduce asexually.

It is reported to do so in the wild:


Incorporating fine-scale seascape composition in an assessment of habitat quality for the giant sea anemone Stichodactyla gigantea in a coral reef shore zone
http://www.springerlink.com/content/...3/fulltext.pdf

from it:

"At the end of the study, 43 anemones existed: nine had disappeared, six had been newly found, and one actinia had divided into three small individuals."
I do want to thank you for the link. It is very interesting.

On the subject of asexual reproduction, it leaves me with more questions than answers. They even state that more research is needed in this area. I would like to know what evidence they used to conclude that one actinia divided into three. Did they see it in the process? Was there one, and a week later there were three smaller ones? (I will read the link further after work.) Their study documented anemones disappearing and appearing all over the study area. If they did not see the reproduction in process, I don't believe they can conclude, the three individuals were the result of asexual reproduction. If a large anemone vacates a prime location, it would not be surprising for smaller individuals to move in and take its place. So far, what I've read of the link does not prove these animals are capable of asexual reproduction. At least to me.


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Old 12/13/2010, 07:13 AM   #37
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Since keeping giganteas for long periods is relatively uncommmon, it is expected that "rare" events would go unnoticed unless one surveys large numbers of organisms kept under a great variety of conditions.


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Old 12/13/2010, 08:01 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley View Post
Since keeping giganteas for long periods is relatively uncommmon, it is expected that "rare" events would go unnoticed unless one surveys large numbers of organisms kept under a great variety of conditions.
I totally agree. That's why I haven't said that they lack this ability. I've simply said that they are not known to have this ability. We know very little about these animals and I'm sure there are surprises to be discovered. We can not simply assume an animal has an ability though. In order to say an animal has an ability, we must first prove that they do. I've seen many anemones over the years with growth like the one in this thread. I have never seen, or heard of, one of these growths developing a pedal disk of its own and separating from the original anemone. Until that happens, we can not assume it takes place.


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Old 12/13/2010, 10:16 AM   #39
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I came home for lunch and have a look. In the main tank the blue hadonni was deflating again.. In another rock I have a h. crispa wich has been with me since last september. Some days ago I saw the crispa a bit small but did not give any importance, but today is very small, with many mesenteric filaments coming out from one side of pedal disk (which acording to Sprung means normally a physical agression). I saw previosly a small crab, so maybe he has been picking him.

I feel a kind of "chemical" comunication between the anemones when they deflate, are stressed or ill. ¿Is there a possibility for aleopathy or just transfer of bacteria from one to another?. I removed the crispa to another qt bucket, in that moment the hadonni closed his moth ¿?. Maybe the crispa started the illness and trasnfer the bacteria to the gigantea and the hadonni?. I will place in the tank a crab trap tonight.


The green gigantea in QT has not deflated again, he is inflated and lookin healthy but the mouth is not complete closed. This is the only reason that makes me still not want to return him to the main tank. I have placed over the bucket a small light (lourenscent tube). I remember that light was "helping" deflation in the aquarium. Let´s see the reaction with the antibiotic now.

I will edit the post later to include photos.

Thanks a lot for the info provided!.


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Old 12/13/2010, 12:51 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegance coral View Post
I totally agree. That's why I haven't said that they lack this ability.
One thing is certain - it isn't a common occurrence (at least not in captivity). I have found zero specific information on the reproductive behavior of this species - sexual or asexual.

I sent the author of the paper an email, so we'll see if they respond. Because the research was conducted over several years maybe they have more specific field notes.


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Old 12/13/2010, 01:00 PM   #41
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I can´t edit my post. Please, find below some new pics.

The anemone seems to recover slowly, he does OK with the lights. Maybe all the bacteria are dead and the infection is halted. The mouth looks closer. No deflation anymore.












I will let him in the bucket with new seawater and antibiotic for one more day. With luck, when returned to the main tank he will be ok. Then I´ll try to take a closer photo of the "false clones?".

It´s amazing that the amonia does not seems to be a problem for him...


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Old 12/13/2010, 01:26 PM   #42
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Amazing.

I would keep him in quarantine for a little bit longer since he seems to be doing better.

This is the first S. gigantea I have ever seen recover after looking as bad as I have seen in your earlier photos. Let's hope he continues to do well!

Can you share - very specifically - the antibiotic you used? Was it a specific brand name?


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Old 12/13/2010, 02:05 PM   #43
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Well, the antibiotic is cloramfenicol, I am afraid it is forbiden in the United States, in fact is toxic for humans so even it is no longer used in veterinary. The dosage is 50 mg/l of pure cloramfenicol (white powder)

But there is another antibiotic called enrofloxacin wich can be given with a vet prescription. Some time ago I recovered a H. magnifica with enrofloxacin (In fact, theoretically is more powerfull and modern than cloramfenicol).

Cloramfenicol seems to be only bacteriostatic and enrofloxacim also bactericide.They should not be use together.


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Old 12/13/2010, 03:00 PM   #44
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It's looking better in those last pics. I'm pulling for you to bring it back to good health. Keep up the good work.


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Old 12/13/2010, 03:33 PM   #45
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enrofloxacin is sold under the brand name Baytril, right? Very effective in small animals, so I can see the logic (in terms of effectiveness) behind aquatic use.


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Old 12/13/2010, 03:45 PM   #46
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Yes, the "Bayer" commercial name is "Baytril", but it is very expensive. There is a brand called "elhinger" wich makes the product "Elhifloxacino" much more cheaper:

http://www.ehlinger.cl/ehlifloxacino150.html

It is used for dogs.


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Old 12/14/2010, 01:04 PM   #47
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Updates please!


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Old 12/14/2010, 02:36 PM   #48
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wow! i thought he was a goner. keep it up!


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Old 12/14/2010, 02:59 PM   #49
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Hi, the response to the antibiotic has been fantastic!!, also before I returned him to the tank I dosage 5 ml/gal of seachem "reef dip" in the bucket (for just 1minute, because he did not like it), afterwards I took him with my two hands and placed gently in the tank over the rocks.

I noticed an improved capacity of attatching and better mobility. I do not know whenever the battle is won or not, but I feel really happy since it seems that I have recover him!.

This pics were taking haf an hour ago, after placed in the tank. He looks really healthy . I will upload a video in some minutes.












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Old 12/14/2010, 03:01 PM   #50
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Still too soon, but that is really impressive. Wish it was easier to get that antibiotic, sure would be nice to try it and see what would happen.


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