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Old 01/08/2017, 06:47 PM   #9226
karimwassef
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 photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg

The algae is literally crawling with pods and the bottom on the tank it filled with sediment that settles there.

I export and then feed it into my tank.

I stopped external feeding, protein skimmer, GFO, GAC and even water changes

Result:

 photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg

Massive overcrowding (pic with MH only- no LEDs or actinics)

More pics on my tank thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...2545088&page=7


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Old 01/08/2017, 06:53 PM   #9227
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The LED over the secondary tank is DIY consuming 600W (50A x 12V) @ 24/7

 photo C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg

I think it's a little much for a tank I never feed any more so the algae is lighter in color these days, but still green. If it gets brownish, I'll feed again or cut back the light.

It is competing for nutrients with my reef running 1200W of MH for 18hrs a day.


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Old 01/08/2017, 07:10 PM   #9228
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That is some intense growth!


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Old 01/09/2017, 04:15 AM   #9229
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
The LED over the secondary tank is DIY consuming 600W (50A x 12V) @ 24/7

 photo C4EA2407-3A6C-4470-964F-DF8EC364A08E_zps5bemyy78.jpg

I think it's a little much for a tank I never feed any more so the algae is lighter in color these days, but still green. If it gets brownish, I'll feed again or cut back the light.

It is competing for nutrients with my reef running 1200W of MH for 18hrs a day.
Karim,

did you solve the black algae that was growing in your dt with this big ATS?
I remember you said you have insect probelms that contributed to excess nutrients?

What you you mean, you never feed anymore?
dont you have a lot of fish?


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Old 01/09/2017, 05:14 AM   #9230
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
 photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg

The algae is literally crawling with pods and the bottom on the tank it filled with sediment that settles there.

I export and then feed it into my tank.

I stopped external feeding, protein skimmer, GFO, GAC and even water changes

Result:

 photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg

Massive overcrowding (pic with MH only- no LEDs or actinics)

More pics on my tank thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...2545088&page=7
Karim,

This is spectacular indeed, especially the coral health. I have also experimented an oversized ATS + refugium, however the SPS/LPS were not thriving. A Triton analysis showed depleted traces, especially Iodine, Iron, Molybden, Manganese. These are known to be scavenged aggressively by the algae, which get exported on removal . How do you compensate without water changes?


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Old 01/09/2017, 05:55 AM   #9231
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I stopped export. I use the algae from the scrubber tank as food for the reef tank.

No waste.

It's basically a closed loop with light turning the cycle over. 1200W MH over the reef for 18hrs and 600W LED over the scrubber.

Yes. The black algae stopped once I stopped external feeding.

I was surprised when the fish didn't die from negligence. To be honest, I had little choice with my work schedule and my wife's vociferous hatred of the tank. I expected the mandarin to go first followed by the trigger eating all the shrimp and then the damsels before dying. They all made it.


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Old 01/09/2017, 06:00 AM   #9232
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I had agonized for some time a while back about scrubber export being so full of life. I tried separating the pods from the algae... bad experiments

This unexpected solution actually solved my feeding budget and my discomfort in killing the export.

I do believe that I can still feed the tank until the export goes from pale green back to a rich dark green again. basically topping off the food / nutrient level in the tanks. But that's an experiment for another day.


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Old 01/09/2017, 06:05 AM   #9233
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I stopped export. I use the algae from the scrubber tank as food for the reef tank.

No waste.

It's basically a closed loop with light turning the cycle over. 1200W MH over the reef for 18hrs and 600W LED over the scrubber.

Yes. The black algae stopped once I stopped external feeding.

I was surprised when the fish didn't die from negligence. To be honest, I had little choice with my work schedule and my wife's vociferous hatred of the tank. I expected the mandarin to go first followed by the trigger eating all the shrimp and then the damsels before dying. They all made it.
Karim,
the big black container is more like a fuge than an ATS but you are harvesting GHA instead of Chaeto or other algae, isnīt it?

have you tested your N and P? do they show in test kits now?

you have such amaizing colors in your sps. can I know your alk and other parameters??


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Old 01/09/2017, 07:09 AM   #9234
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Fuge vs scrubber... no idea about the semantics.

The hair grows in long billowing strands 1-2ft long. Sometimes wrapping into a loop.

I do believe that combining it with a settling tank design works to keep the algae fed without leaving the detritus in the reef.

The rounded ends create a continuous loop of flow that pulls on the algae forming the long strands. Removing this is much easier (and less messy) than scraping off my double sided monster ATS screens. It's killing nd of like a cotton candy machine where the algae just wraps around in my hand.

The efficiency is very high because there's no glass interface. It's literally growing on the surface of the water where the turbulence and flow are highest.

I've always had thick growth and pods, but harvesting this stuff literally made my skin crawl with pods. They were jumping from out of the semi-submerged mass as I collected it.

Putting that in my tank in an eggcrate cage made my tangs and wrasses go a little wild.


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Old 01/09/2017, 07:20 AM   #9235
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I've never registered N or P. To be honest, I've been too busy to measure anything my Apex doesn't track except Alk/Ca/Mg occasionally ... but it would be a good datapoint since the change. I can say that there's no visible algae in the tank except coralline. Having said that, my overflow and sump do have algae clumps where the tangs can't reach and they are constantly eating. Same for blennies, snails and urchins... my front glass gets coated in a film of algae but every morning, it's potmarked with mouth and sucker prints.

My Alk is 8.5dKH,Ca 550, Mg 1600, pH varies between 8.1 and 8.4 (forced steps through kalk drip), Temp 76-83 depending on TX weather. Salinity 30ppm.

I suspect that the influx of bugs that used to cause me so much pain became part of the diet for my tank (directly or indirectly).

I also suspect that stopping my skimmer and moving to a settling tank also retained nutrients in the immediate zone of the algae.

By the way, I am NOT advocating that this works for a new tank. I love my
monster skimmer and surge that are now offline. My tank was very established when this happened. The monster ATS was already in full force when I ripped it out and let the settling tank take over seeded with live rock full of life.


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Old 01/09/2017, 07:23 AM   #9236
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Also color has a lot to do with light. I do plan on adding blue and UV LEDs again to see how they change.


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Old 01/09/2017, 07:24 AM   #9237
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Surprised no one is asking about carrying 50A of current into the LED frame and the cooling for that... maybe that's a better discussion for the DIY forums.


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Old 01/09/2017, 08:33 AM   #9238
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Surprised no one is asking about carrying 50A of current into the LED frame and the cooling for that... maybe that's a better discussion for the DIY forums.
I was wondering that myself. In a couple sentences or less, could you explain what a settling tank is exactly?


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Old 01/09/2017, 09:05 AM   #9239
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Settling tank: A tank that collects particulate waste without a filter. Basically, it's a large circular tank where water enters against one edge and is forced into a rotational loop. This simulates a huge pool where the particles have time to settle down due to gravity. The outlet is usually a surface overflow near the middle and it usually empties down into another tank for additional processing.

My approach is a variant of this that adds live rock and an additional circulating pump to keep the deeper levels in a loop (not so settled). Then I add intense light 24/7. These are usually the exact opposite of what a settling tank is designed for. I married the design elements of an ATS (turbulent rapid flow, large surface media, intense light) to those of a settling tank (long loop flow, deep water detritus capture, central surface overflow) to make this thing.

I also added another element that emulates the air exchange in a skimmer... the central overflow dumps down a long 2" PVC pipe into the aux sump. The overflow has a massive 2" T that sucks gallons of air as it crashes into the sump below... creating a bubbling fizzy mess. A pump in this sump reinjects the water back into the settling tank... making it into a recirculating, air injected settling tank with heavy ATS overtones.

The aux sump water also slowly flows back into the main sump and then back to the DT tank before being siphoned back into the settling tank.


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Old 01/09/2017, 12:06 PM   #9240
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No need to harvest or clean out the bottom, or dose anything. It all just bio-circulates into a complete reef system. Self feeding too.

Maybe over the long term you might lose some nitrogen to ammonia evaporation, but it will be very small in comparison to the amount of nitrogen in all the life.

Also as fish or CUC grows, they might sequester a percentage of the total nutrients, which would be indicated by less algae growth and larger animals. Just feed a few more times and you'll be back to normal.


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Old 01/09/2017, 12:30 PM   #9241
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Karim, what does the algae attach itself too? How did you seed the tub, or was it not necessary? Also is there any debris settling in the tank with all the rock and such?

Corey


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Old 01/10/2017, 01:39 AM   #9242
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There is debris on the bottom... like a sandy muddy layer wriggling with pods.

The algae attached to everything. The plastic side walls first, then PVC, then the live rock, then the pump.

I was so glad to have put in a 2" overflow PVC pipe. The main return overflow got completely covered and clogged with a mash of hair that ran for several feet down the tube. The overflow switch set off the alarm but the passive emergency overflow saved the day.


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Old 01/10/2017, 01:51 AM   #9243
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I am creating a shadowed overflow covering. I really didn't think a 2" PVC pipe could get overgrown in a few weeks.


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Old 01/10/2017, 02:59 AM   #9244
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Agree with SM. It's like a wheel rotating on an axle. The light is the primary energy that stops it from slowing down, but I could likely feed more without issue. This is especially true in the winter since the usual population of mosquitos and gnats disappears.

I have to thank this forum. When I returned to the hobby, I was convinced that algae and coral cannot thrive in the same water. I had a vision of an ultra-clean reef without fish or food and very very algae free. The ATS concept challenged that because the same water generating hair algae was running in a clean reef. That journey ended up here with the new philosophy that water good enough for algae is also good enough for coral. The difference is in the other variables.

The two pictures above say it all. One shows an algae covered swirling swamp with a muddy base and no fish or invertebrates. The other is a lush algae free coral garden full of fat fish... same water!

The fact that there are so many thriving corals is a self-sustaining state. If I had half the corals and half the fish, I think I'd see start to see algae in the main tank again. I have an army of herbivores that survived for months before I started feeding them the export from the scrubber.

One tank is hazardous to algae- the other is prime for them. Both ecosystems live off the same chemistry. Both sequester in their tissues. I artificially move some of it from one tank to the other for balance. As long as the algae tank is sustaining the algae farm... they don't need to invade the reef with its big nasty herbivores.

Can't wait to merge the algae tank with my surge and have a mass of pods flushed out of it regularly into the DT. Another day...


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Old 01/10/2017, 07:34 AM   #9245
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That journey ended up here with the new philosophy that water good enough for algae is also good enough for coral.
^^ this...great statement

Would you go as far as expanding that to say that if you can't get algae to grow, then something is wrong/off?


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Old 01/10/2017, 07:53 AM   #9246
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^^ this...great statement

Would you go as far as expanding that to say that if you can't get algae to grow, then something is wrong/off?
I would unless you like pastel corals.

Algae in a tank is a healthy tank.


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Old 01/10/2017, 09:26 AM   #9247
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I would unless you like pastel corals.

Algae in a tank is a healthy tank.
But you want to grow it where YOU want to....


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Old 01/10/2017, 12:31 PM   #9248
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the same water generating hair algae was running in a clean reef
Yes this is surprising to many aquarist. But not to biologists; it's just a known thing.

Some studies of shallow reefs counted over 20 pounds wet weight of algae per square meter of coral growth area. And this does not include the phyto in the water above it.


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Old 01/10/2017, 04:38 PM   #9249
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^^ this...great statement

Would you go as far as expanding that to say that if you can't get algae to grow, then something is wrong/off?
Yes. Absolutely.

We want selective growth of algae but not elimination of algae. Coralline survives the munching of the herbivores so it remains visible, but the N and P cycles should be turning with a strong base of algae.

The biofauna that depends on that solid algae base are key to the food cycle. I think establishing algae-philic zones to offset the perfect reef bubbles we like to see is key.

I went back to the first months of my reef (before I added the herbivores and corals) - I was very upset at the time. I now realize that this was healthy and normal for that stage of the tank's lifecycle:

 photo 6B45E405-2D99-4567-BA54-0EB3459E2FBB_zpstqn9z1bq.jpg

 photo 26532538-44BB-4D16-B66D-4A7FA4E52623_zpsonywxzyo.jpg

I approached a fuge or scrubber as an algae hater, not realizing that the algae I was starting to cultivate would be the key to my success. It's about zoning and controlled cultivation of the different bio-zones to replicate nature's diversity.


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Old 01/10/2017, 05:15 PM   #9250
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Surprised no one is asking about carrying 50A of current into the LED frame and the cooling for that... maybe that's a better discussion for the DIY forums.
Not really.. At least I am interested.. As a person that runs both scrubber and a tub(40 gallon lit by 600 watts of led), I don't register N, but I do P.. I'd like to eliminate any form of phosphate unnatural control(gfo), etc.. I grow cheato in my tub right now, and I have noticed over time, like yourself, that no algea at all grows in the reef at all. Which I never had before.. I'm only using blue and red led on the tub, and have the option of turning the white on, but haven't as of yet.

Also, over the last two months of having it, I have grown hair algea, on the sides, but.. I have a Jebao powerhead in there creating flow, since the water flows slow through it via the manifold..

But, I noticed also, that my pods haven't grown and multiplied like it did in the fuge with less flow(i saw more pods before adding the powerhead by far, and I still see more in the fuge that has the scrubber). So I have considered your approach also, and just making it, what it seems, like a settling tank that you see in the water processing plants.. And letting the silt grow.. It will take time of course, but I'm willing to try it simply because I have everything already in place.. And with your results, it's making me seriously wonder if I could realistically create a self sustained system.. But I was worried that having that show flow through it might cause other problems possibly.. I also have the output of my calcium reactor going into the tub, for any possible excess Co2 to be pulled in by the algea in there..

So I am interested in anything you could give input on.. Any at all.. And I have pictures of the tub also..

From note 5


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