Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Advanced Topics
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 09/01/2017, 11:28 AM   #9626
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
No.

Skimmers remove dissolved organics, not inorganics. You're removing food and bacteria - not N and P.

I run SPS without a skimmer or GFO. Algae is all you need.

The ratios of N and P should be in balance, not equal.

The cowrie creates a recycling loop but it must go through algae... inorganics > algae > eaten and turned to poo > organics > inorganics > repeat.

The middle part can go several ways...

poo > bacteria > skimmer export
poo > bacteria > sponge food (sponge sequestration)
poo > pods & worms > coral food (coral sequestration)
poo > inorganics + light > algae food (algal sequestration)
poo > inorganics + light > algae food > algae export

There's plenty of other possible chains - but they all come from poo and go back to poo

The food chain is a beautiful thing
That for the explanation. What is your N & P in your "Algae Export" "NO Skimmer/GFO" SPS Tank setup?

What if I stopped my Skimmer, which is producing a thick cup every week.
I know the scrubber is a good design and works effectively.

The scrubber should really kick in, regardless on how much the snails and Cowrie are eating off the screens.

Turning Scrubber off terrifies me. Wish I could test this without DT involved.

So it sounds like this has nothing to do with Photo Period on my mature screens.

And...I probably can feed the Fish much more. However could I feed corals with Coral Foods without Skimmer?

BTW. I put a Time Lapse camera on the Scrubber overnight. Snails are continuously running across the screens cleaning them. Haven't seen Cowrie yet.



Last edited by Wally.B; 09/01/2017 at 11:41 AM.
Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 04:44 PM   #9627
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
N and P are below measurement

My corals grow at a frantic pace because there's food (organics) in the water, not inorganics.

There's this myth than there's a minimum N and P needed for healthy coral growth and color. In the wild, healthy natural reefs have no measurable inorganics but massive organics. The normal food/waste cycle provides all that is needed for zooxanthelle to work.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 04:45 PM   #9628
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
Oh. I don't export. I sequester and recycle algae.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 04:48 PM   #9629
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
Snail waste doesn't serve as coral food if the snails are in the scrubber.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 05:41 PM   #9630
sensei
Registered Member
 
sensei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 540
1.- does any one using a ATS has experience dosing H2O2 for cyano?
there is a study that suggests dosing H2O2 14 days to eradicate cyano, but I am not sure if it will affect the algae filter?


2.- do any of you using ATS has tested Potassium in water?
I wonder if algae consumes potassium at a rate that it needs to be dosed to the tank to have good levels for the health of the sps?

thanks for your answers


__________________
470g DT SPS dominated (600g system) - five 400W MH , BK 250 SM Skimmer
150g mixed reef - XR15w Pro, 150g FOWLR tank - XR30w Pro
90 g Coral & Invert Fishless quarantine - XR15w Pro, 20g TTM Fish Qt
sensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 06:15 PM   #9631
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Snail waste doesn't serve as coral food if the snails are in the scrubber.
Why do you say this?
Whatever Waste the snails produce flows out of the scrubber since the scrubber is passthru and water returns back to DT.


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 06:17 PM   #9632
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by sensei View Post
2.- do any of you using ATS has tested Potassium in water?
I wonder if algae consumes potassium at a rate that it needs to be dosed to the tank to have good levels for the health of the sps?

thanks for your answers
I just tested and K=400. But I do frequent water changes.


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 06:20 PM   #9633
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Oh. I don't export. I sequester and recycle algae.
You said above in your first post that you run a scrubber only, but no skimmer. Yet your ID Footnote say's DIY 12' Skimmer (is that out of date).

Would you suggest I try turning off my very active skimmer and see if Scrubber kicks in (And SPS also improve)?

Can you explain what "sequester and recycle algae" means?


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 06:25 PM   #9634
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
yes. I built a massive skimmer and then stopped using it and converted it to an air injector only.. basically, the head of the skimmer.

I did this because the organics it was removing was coral food that I needed to keep in the tank.

I would only take the skimmer offline if your scrubber is active and healthy. You can try turning it down to experiment.

Sequester means that the algae continues to grow and I don't remove it.
Recycle means that when I do remove any of it, I feed it back to my DT to turn it into poop = food for my corals.

If you have mechanical filtration, you're actively turning good organics into wasteful inorganics.

This is my experience.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 06:44 PM   #9635
wertoiuy
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 20
Alright, I really don't feel like reading 385 pages, even though this has probably been answered: I don't have a tank and will likely not get one in the near future. However, I like to dream. I work at a local fish store which runs skimmers in sumps, but no live rock in sump or refugium, so I have to deal with skimmers all the time. I really like the sound of an ATS compared to a skimmer: the natural aspect appeals to me, and especially the fact that it wouldn't take miniature food that corals and small fish rely on out of the system (unless I misunderstand them). I also really like the idea of having a sump above above the DT rather than underneath, and installing a bell siphon into an end compartment to make a surge tank. I know that the bell siphon is used in aquaponics in order to provide a slow raise in water level and then a fast drain, which fully waters and nutrifies plants, but still allows their roots to breath. Would an ATS work just as well or better inside of this surge portion of the sump, or is it necessary to be constantly underwater? The thing is, to install an ATS otherwise requires another pump running in the sump.

Additionally, from what I gather, you can take all of the algae you pull out and feed it straight back to your fish? Does this essentially give you a sealed system, sort of like an Ecosphere? You would still have to dose things such as calcium & magnesium to account for coral growth, correct?

Finally, a really stupid question - What causes the algae to grow in the ATS rather than just in the tank like normal? The really strong lights?


wertoiuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 07:23 PM   #9636
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I would only take the skimmer offline if your scrubber is active and healthy. You can try turning it down to experiment.
Took me a while to tune skimmer to perfection, so rather than turn down efficiency I'll put in on Controller to turn it off for a few hours during night.
Also I'll increase feeding to see if I can wake up the skimmer more. Or at least enough that the Snails and Cowrie can't keep up with their Scrubber Scrubbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
If you have mechanical filtration, you're actively turning good organics into wasteful inorganics.

This is my experience.
I do have a Sump Sock, but it's under the water level under Tank Return Flow to capture only large particulate.
Reason for submberged Sock is I want live copepods, etc to have chance to escape. I just recently removed the bit a Active Carbon I had to see if it also helps Scrubber kick in. Nothing else.


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 07:38 PM   #9637
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
I have to emphasize that most people use scrubbers to export. I experimented and have been successful with sequestration and recycling, but it's not the common use. In any case, I think algae is the solution - whether you sequester, recycle or export.

Some people can't put a scrubber large enough. Some people don't like the sound. Some people don't like the smell... there are solutions to all these issues, but that's my take on why scrubbers are not yet as popular as skimmers.

Any mechanical filtration creates waste. That includes skimmers. Large particulates are just bigger food. Some people can't stand the look of particulates in their water - I think it's natural. If you must have mechanical filtration, you need to clean it constantly to avoid creating waste. Every time you do, you're removing food from the tank.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 07:50 PM   #9638
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by wertoiuy View Post
Alright, I really don't feel like reading 385 pages, even though this has probably been answered: I don't have a tank and will likely not get one in the near future. However, I like to dream. I work at a local fish store which runs skimmers in sumps, but no live rock in sump or refugium, so I have to deal with skimmers all the time. I really like the sound of an ATS compared to a skimmer: the natural aspect appeals to me, and especially the fact that it wouldn't take miniature food that corals and small fish rely on out of the system (unless I misunderstand them). I also really like the idea of having a sump above above the DT rather than underneath, and installing a bell siphon into an end compartment to make a surge tank. I know that the bell siphon is used in aquaponics in order to provide a slow raise in water level and then a fast drain, which fully waters and nutrifies plants, but still allows their roots to breath. Would an ATS work just as well or better inside of this surge portion of the sump, or is it necessary to be constantly underwater? The thing is, to install an ATS otherwise requires another pump running in the sump.

Additionally, from what I gather, you can take all of the algae you pull out and feed it straight back to your fish? Does this essentially give you a sealed system, sort of like an Ecosphere? You would still have to dose things such as calcium & magnesium to account for coral growth, correct?

Finally, a really stupid question - What causes the algae to grow in the ATS rather than just in the tank like normal? The really strong lights?
Good ideas and I've implemented many of them - but to be more accurate:

A sump is "by definition" the lowest container in a system. If you want a surge tank over your tank, that's ok. Your DT is then your "sump". That means that your tank's water level will be the one that changes as water evaporates - just be ready to address this. Also, how do you plan to pump water up into the surge from your DT? An overflow container? Keep in mind that a surge can significantly overwhelm pumps - causing a sump DT flood... design carefully.

Surges are great. Passive surges like you describe are simple and easy to implement, but be comfortable with bubbles in the tank. I opt for actuated surges since I also run a heavy food system with lots of particulates. If I had particulates and bubbles, I wouldn't see the corals.

I think a surge scrubber would work - I have a thread on it since I'm planning one for my next tank. But algae grows best when it has a rich air/water interface. Either with bubbles or waterfall. Being constantly submerged or exposed for an extended time - both can cause problems. The surge would have to be frequent to avoid extremes, or add bubbles to keep air agitating the scrubber media.

I recycle - but you need heavy algae eaters to keep this cycle going. I use tangs and a rabbitfish to eat the algae as fast as it grows... they're my "sheep"

My theory is that scrubbers grow algae better they're "tuned" to grow algae better. The environment in the scrubber is optimum with lots of air/water interface, fast flow, and strong continuous light. Once algae preferentially grows in a location, it will continue to grow there - basically, it strips out the inorganics faster than algae in the tank.

It's a competition - algae in the tank is fighting the algae in the scrubber and the scrubber team is always winning. Add to that predation from snails, crabs and fish in the DT and those guys are toast...

My 0.02


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 07:57 PM   #9639
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Any mechanical filtration creates waste. That includes skimmers. Large particulates are just bigger food. Some people can't stand the look of particulates in their water - I think it's natural. If you must have mechanical filtration, you need to clean it constantly to avoid creating waste. Every time you do, you're removing food from the tank.
ok. I removed the sock that is just before the scrubber chamber of sump.
It wasn't doing much except catching food anyway which might help the scrubber and as you say the corals.
I can live with particulates floating in DT currents if SPS corals do better.


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 04:28 PM   #9640
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
What is best way to restart my scrubber that went idle?

-> Reduce Photo Period?
-> Reduced Intensity?
-> Combination of both?


As I posted above my very active Scrubber went idle.
Still scratching my head why since plenty of Nutrients, N & P up there.
Let's put that aside for now.

I haven't pulled out the screen for a couple many weeks since nothing was appearing. Today I decided to look at their condition.



I did shoot TimeLapse Video and observed two Astrea's and one Cowrie polishing the screens with the little algae on there.

Astrea's have been removed, to cut back on screen cleaning/sterilizaton.

I smeared what little Algae was left at the Top of each screen over the cleaned areas. The areas they didn't reach since they don't like to come out of water. (These screen are submerged).

I don't need to rough up anymore, since there is good rough coralline on the screens (now). And they are prickly rough anyway.

Now I want to get screen going again.

My LED panel is dimmable (But I never used that feature).

I used to run 18-20 hours when Scrubber was active.
Now It's set at 12 hours to trigger some recovery and limit burn off.

Should I dim LED's and run more hours? Or run at max with less hours?


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 04:43 PM   #9641
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
Confused by the picture. Why cutouts? Why multiple screen sections?


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 04:54 PM   #9642
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Confused by the picture. Why cutouts? Why multiple screen sections?
I won't try to explain the screens here.
Scrubber is my DIY custom design. A waterfall screen, but works like Upflow since submerged (and built into Sump, DT return Flow).
Worked great till this recent stop.
One screen is a outer basket, the cut out one is in middle and allows light thru (Cut out, where LEDs are placed).
I had a mirror before, but that was a bad idea.
Hard to explain here.
This THREAD Scrubber Build/Sump will explain it all. Shows Design Sketch, Build, Test Videos, and Scrubber Harvest results when it was humming.
(Page two will explain the cut outs)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2570553
Have a peek when you have a spare moment and let me know best method to restart. Time or Intensity. Or both. or something else to solve this mystery (why it slowed down and stopped. It can't just be the snails and cowrie cleaning screens).



Last edited by Wally.B; 09/02/2017 at 05:12 PM.
Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 09:11 PM   #9643
SantaMonica
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Santa Monica, California, USA
Posts: 2,393
Well you don't want coralline on it. It fights off algae.


__________________
Inventor of the easy-to-DIY upflow scrubber, and also the waterfall scrubber with removable growth compartment:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1424843

Current Tank Info: Various test setups
SantaMonica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 09:58 PM   #9644
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaMonica View Post
Well you don't want coralline on it. It fights off algae.
I agree. But there is enough no-coralline areas on screen to start up.
I'll replace/clean the one or more screens later, once I get scrubber going.

I think I figured things out.
I did a review of all my Logs.
Posted Tank Log Review details at the end of my Tank thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...636608&page=14
Summary:
-> Various Improvements to Tank lowered my N&P to much lower levels (over time). P especially
-> Scrubber Slowed down significantly (as it should)
-> Corwie and Snails cleaned Screen to Like New.
-> Screen can't start up since they keep it too clean.
-> I removed Snails. Will remove Cowrie.
-> I have to restart the screen like I started in the beginning. (15 hours, Full Power)
-> I have small head start with some algae on there.

Does my theory make sense?

What is better for restart. (High Power, Less Time) (Lower Power, More time). (Doesn't matter?).


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 11:53 PM   #9645
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,891
Unless you're over 2000 PAR, I think it's just PAR x photoperiod - as long as there's enough food, I don't think the algae cares. Lower intensity for longer time is probably safer.

Sunlight on the reef surface is 2000+ PAR and algae grows fine... because there's enough food.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/2017, 10:07 PM   #9646
vikinglord13
Registered Member
 
vikinglord13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: My tank is in Orange, California, USA. ... I live in Escondido, California, USA.
Posts: 425
Is it possible to "farm" a scrubber by putting algae onto it? What I mean is, rather than hoping a good photoperiod strategy will initiate algae growth, is it possible to just put a few strands of algae on the screen and allow them to take off?


vikinglord13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/2017, 11:01 PM   #9647
Wally.B
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto GTA,Canada
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by vikinglord13 View Post
Is it possible to "farm" a scrubber by putting algae onto it? What I mean is, rather than hoping a good photoperiod strategy will initiate algae growth, is it possible to just put a few strands of algae on the screen and allow them to take off?
That is exactly what is recommended according to what I have read (Priming the screen). What I did to get my scrubber startred..
Otherwise you just have to wait longer for floating aglae to attach to rough screen. You can actually choose the type of Algae that will grow on your screen. Some are better than others. Hair Algae grows faster, but it's messier to clean. Success varies with the scrubber design. My algae eventually was Thicker Macro, and I loved how easy it was to peel off the screen. (Macro worked in my Upflow scrubber, not sure if it's as good in a suspended Water Fall screen)

As I mention above, my scrubber shut down not too long ago. I wish I kept some of the previous Algae harvests in the refuge or sump so I could use a bit to restart the screens, by making a paste and painting it on screen to prime it.

The photo period is still probably important, to get the primed screen going.


Wally.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 03:45 PM   #9648
bbgobie
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 35
Hope this is the right topic to post to.

Why not use a Chaeto reactor but inject air at the same time and grow turf/hair algae in there?

Seems you would have most the benefits of an external ATS except maybe quieter, less worry about clogging. With the disadvantages of probably harder to scrape/clean and less surface area?


bbgobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 04:10 PM   #9649
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,141
Blog Entries: 15
I've seen someone grow chaeto in a modified waterfall scrubber box with a spray bar, so why not do the reverse? It might work


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 10:56 PM   #9650
SantaMonica
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Santa Monica, California, USA
Posts: 2,393
The hair algae will grow on, and out-compete, the chaeto. This kills it. Chaeto is a very weak competitor for nutrients.


__________________
Inventor of the easy-to-DIY upflow scrubber, and also the waterfall scrubber with removable growth compartment:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1424843

Current Tank Info: Various test setups
SantaMonica is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
algae scrubber/heavy metals charles matthews Randy Holmes-Farley 6 11/03/2016 09:32 PM
xenia scrubber instead of algae scrubber? dolt SPS Keepers 40 04/07/2011 12:34 PM
Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter. Frick-n-Frags Reef Discussion 166 08/03/2008 04:58 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:09 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2018 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014