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Old 04/25/2011, 05:51 AM   #1
osi
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Question Whatís wrong with My Carlson Surge Device?

Iím building a 560 gallon tank and thought about using 4 Carlson surge deviceís instead of few MP60ís. I never build a csd before but I herd its implement more natural wave than power heads, and itís really helps to save electricity.

Anyway I build couple of 5 gallon surge boxes after reading almost all the articles I manage to find on line.

My problem is none of the devicesí I build doesnít work. These are the sum of the some of the diagrams I found on the web.






Anyway this is the first device I build.





And it did work very first time. After water level reach the top end of the tube siphon starts and quickly drains the water out and then siphon breaks at the lower end of the tube. But then after water fill the halfway up it start leaking the water out. So water level does not reach the top and siphon want start.

Then I red artical written by Helter Skilter about his CSD and build something similar to that and then itís not working at all. Water keeps filing and goes out of the overflow but siphon want start.












Anyone can figure out what Iím doing wrong? Thanks.


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Old 04/25/2011, 06:31 AM   #2
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It sounds like to me that you are siphoning out of your vent pipe after the first time it fires. Move the siphon break up to the top of the "U" like the first diagram and I bet it works for you.


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Old 04/25/2011, 08:09 AM   #3
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You also need a pump strong enough to overcome the free flow rate of the drain itself. If your pump is not strong enough the drain will simpy flow at the rate of the fill pump and never form a siphon.


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Old 04/25/2011, 08:28 AM   #4
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no Geo, it was the first divice i made which works one time and start leeking after and it dosent have a vent pipe.( fist 2 pictures) the second one got a vent pipe and syphon never start.

beanAnimal, i dont understand. whats the free flow rate ya talking about? my question is if its works the very fist time then y its not working after?


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Old 04/25/2011, 08:32 AM   #5
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im gona try making a perfect U bend. too bad we dont have U bends to buy in shops.


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Old 04/25/2011, 09:38 AM   #6
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what Ben is saying is....

your pump that pumps in the tank is too small, when the water gets to the bend portion, it will start to flow through the plumbing, but the water lever will never get above the bend so it creates a cull siphon.

a different bend wont help if you cant get the water level in the tank higher then the plumbing before it starts to drain.
i hope i explained that right. (hope that helps)


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Old 04/25/2011, 10:15 AM   #7
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dahenley so how come it works the very first time? and from the second time water start leaking before it reach the lower portion of the bend. To be precise 2 inchers before the lower part of the bend.

I emptied all the water inside the surge tank and took the discharge end out of the water to bring it back to the state it was when I first test it. And then set it back and try it and it did work again for the first time and then start leaking like before.

Well I guess my pump is not enough and Iím gona install that new U and more powerful pump and see how it goes.

DIY is not fun when u start getting trouble like this lol


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Old 04/25/2011, 10:24 AM   #8
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you can test it by running the device, and on the 2nd try when it starts leaking, take a bucket or container and while leaking, pour water in there, and see what level is needed to create a FULL siphon.

the reason it could work the 1st time would be the lack of water in either side of the device and differences in back pressure. (hard to tell right off)

one thing you can change is the size of the plumbing. if your using 1", then change it to 3/4 and it may work with the current pump. if you want to keep using the current pipe diameter, then a different pump would be needed.

as far as the bend goes, its going going to create a lot of differences in flow dynamics. but if you want it, then go for it.

just some options.


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Old 04/25/2011, 11:45 AM   #9
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Yes the FIRST run starts with an EMPTY pipe. The EMPTY pipe has more air to displace and allows the water to rise higher in the resevior (air compresses) before it reaches the bend. Tha water in teh resevoir is HIGHER than the water in the bend and the siphone fires. In the second fill, some water is left in the pipe and there is LESS air to compress. By the time the water in the resevoir reaches the height of the bend, the bend is allowing water to flow over it at the same rate the pump is filling the resevoir.

You need a larger pump or a smaller pipe.


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Old 04/25/2011, 05:06 PM   #10
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I've had luck with a much simpler version than what you're building:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&postcount=714

But as Bean said you need enough pump to provide a water seal at whatever point in your system needs to be sealed to start the siphon.


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Old 04/25/2011, 08:02 PM   #11
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keep us updated!!


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Old 04/26/2011, 12:20 PM   #12
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After destroying few feet of PVC and good couple of hours of my afternoon I came up with this which I’m not very happy about.



I’m gona fix that with air vent and replace my current pump with pump almost 3 times powerful.


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Old 04/26/2011, 03:32 PM   #13
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The one I showed you requires no bending and is completely adjustable. Just sawing, drilling, and tapping PVC - which is easy.


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Old 04/26/2011, 04:55 PM   #14
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From the photo it looks like your discharge tube is fairly deep in your display tank. Can you try moving the end of that pipe up to a shallower depth and see if it helps? If it does, than the backpressure would be the issue.

Hoss


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Old 04/26/2011, 05:54 PM   #15
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if you feel like re-doing your bend, put tape on one end, and pack it with sand. then heat the outside of the pipe, and bend. the sand will prevent the rippling and bowing. i have done it with smaller stuff, but never heavy PVC. just throwing that out there.

Did you even try to use smaller pipe, or just going to go with the larger pump? just curious.


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240display, reef in progress

Current Tank Info: 240 display, a few frags here and there. lots of fish, and lots of watching. (230 big screen getting re-sealed and going to add to the gallonage) My wife has no clue how addicted i really am.....
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Old 04/26/2011, 09:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahenley View Post
if you feel like re-doing your bend, put tape on one end, and pack it with sand. then heat the outside of the pipe, and bend. the sand will prevent the rippling and bowing. i have done it with smaller stuff, but never heavy PVC. just throwing that out there.

Did you even try to use smaller pipe, or just going to go with the larger pump? just curious.
Martin Moe did that with PVC to make his multi-environment aquarium. So it can be done with PVC and I saw it working at MACNA. In his setup the surge device emptied the tide pool area of the tank, it was really interesting.


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Old 04/27/2011, 01:45 AM   #17
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A siphon will not start if the lower end of the piping is water sealed. What this means is that your out put below needs to breath enough to push any remaining air out.

With out doing this ( as someone mentioned) too much back pressure is exerted on the water in the primary drain and acts as a plug. Forcing the water to leave through the over flow drain.

Try adding a small vent near the bottom of the tubing, just above the surface of the water in your display, and see how that works.


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Old 04/27/2011, 06:00 AM   #18
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Very true.


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Old 04/27/2011, 01:20 PM   #19
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Ok today i install a new pump on my previous setup. Surge tank is 5 gallons and i installed 3000 liters per hour pump. First time it was fine like always and next time it start leaking from the start.It much worse than before coz before it started leaking after surge tank got half full.

Then i use that pump on my other box with air vent and it didnít start the siphon. Water start coming out through the overflow.Then i test it taking the discharge tube almost out of the water like denverhoss suggest but no luck. Siphon doesnít starting at all. Just few bubbles and bit of water keep leaking through the pipe and then start flowing down through the overflow.

I took out u made out of elbows and install that other U i made yesterday and fixed the new bit more powerful pump. Actually 2 pumps. Altogether itís about 5000 liters per hour.Surge tank fill to the top within minutes and start flowing through the overflow but no surge. Just few bubbles from discharge end and thatís about it.




Iím sure Iím doing something wrong here. Coz in all the articles i red it sounds like very easy thing to do. Assuming all the people who wrote them actually made them.


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Old 04/27/2011, 01:24 PM   #20
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I don't get how it leaks... if it is only half full, how is it leaking? I could see if it filled up and the pump was not strong enough and it just flowed out at the rate it was being pumped in, but for it to leak is not making sense to me.


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Old 04/27/2011, 01:31 PM   #21
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No dahenley i didn’t try with smaller pipes coz the whole i drilled on my surge tank is for 1.5”. If this doesn’t work at all I’m gona try kcress design. Maybe it will work.

Btw i tried keep water pouring in with buckets like u suggest with first design with no air vent. And it’s always starting the siphon as soon as siphon tube completely submerged. But even my new pump cannot keep up with the leakage.

Tomorrow I’m gona try drilling whole just above the water line like Metal Man suggest.


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Old 04/27/2011, 01:37 PM   #22
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Well tcmfish i have no idea how it happening. Maybe this is what’s going on there.

Quote:
Yes the FIRST run starts with an EMPTY pipe. The EMPTY pipe has more air to displace and allows the water to rise higher in the resevior (air compresses) before it reaches the bend. Tha water in teh resevoir is HIGHER than the water in the bend and the siphone fires. In the second fill, some water is left in the pipe and there is LESS air to compress. By the time the water in the resevoir reaches the height of the bend, the bend is allowing water to flow over it at the same rate the pump is filling the resevoir.

You need a larger pump or a smaller pipe.
Anyway i had enough with this for one day and I’m going to sleep. Tomorrow I’m gona drill a whole and see what’s gona happen.


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Old 04/27/2011, 01:40 PM   #23
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If you have extra plumbing, put the original plumbing in the box, with no vent. Then on the plumbing outside the tank, put a vent. That way there is no backpressure to prevent a siphon. (Or take a piece of hose and stick it in the output of the plumbing. This will simulate the same thing
Stuck the hose in to where the hose is above water level.


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Its not just my tank, its OUR tank!!! :-)

240display, reef in progress

Current Tank Info: 240 display, a few frags here and there. lots of fish, and lots of watching. (230 big screen getting re-sealed and going to add to the gallonage) My wife has no clue how addicted i really am.....
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Old 04/28/2011, 07:53 AM   #24
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Yay itís working........

Got a problems though.

I drill a small hole on siphon tube just above the water level in display tank like the Metal Man suggest.



After that it starts working. No leaking water. About 7 second to discharge and about 29 seconds to fill. But it release lot of air bubbles. Bubbling is too strong and it keep spraying water everywhere even Iím testing it on fresh water.
None of the videos I saw didnít have this much of bubbles. U can see it in the pictures below.
















Is there anything I can do to reduce the amount of air bubbles? Thanks.


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Old 04/28/2011, 02:19 PM   #25
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Yes I see a few bubbles..

Track them down. Is it the water rushing by the vent hole? Put your finger on the vent hole during a dump. Water rushing by a hole can suck air in.

If that's not it, it's the trapped air in the column below the siphon. It has no where to go but out the bottom. You need a way for it to escape once the large slug of water shows up. Try putting a standpipe from right at the surface to above the water level of the siphon. It needs to be big enough for the air to escape out of faster than the water slug shows up. I'd guess about half the siphon pipe diameter or larger.

To deal with this people often mount their discharge half in the water half out of the water. That's where the air escapes during a surge - just above the water line. Of course that can cause some splatter too.

This gives me an idea. I could build one like mine but put a concentric central pipe back up the center and clear out the top thru the cap. Then the outlet could be fully submerged with an internal air escape. That would require straight piping to the water, but that's what I always did anyway.


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