Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Advanced Topics
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 06/04/2011, 07:16 AM   #1
maglofster
Registered Member
 
maglofster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 297
Algae Scrubber Advanced

We have on this forum (imho) an excellent thread - Algae Scrubber Basics - created by srusso (thanks man!). Now I think it could be wise to start a thread about the more advanced topics in Algae Turf Scrubbing.

For the theory as it stands, all basic questions, designs and other basic stuff about ATS, go HERE.

Since I'm an avid aquarium DIY nerd, and have been for 20 years, I recently jumped on the ATS-wagon to see what it would do for me. So far I have experience from five different versions. Versions that are open, closed and with CFL, T5:s as light plus all sorts of different media to grow the algae. One could say there are as many versions as there are people scrubbing.

One thing is for sure - this is a method that not many people use compared to other more proven methods. Maybe it will rise in popularity in the future or maybe it will be forgotten over the next "flavor of the month". But I think it's time for a collective scientific approach. I think we need to discuss and try out different methods and approaches to scrubbing in a scientific way to see what is good, what is bad and where this method can be refined.

One might look at the open source movement of GNU / Linux - They have enjoyed tremendous success due to the fact that they work as a collective (well mostly) all over the world. I think we have an opportunity to do this as well. Crowd-sourcing to gather data, draw conclusions and figure out solutions to problems.

Some topics I think could be included in this thread:

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?
* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?
* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?
* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?
* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?

This thread is NOT intended as a "it doesn't work" *flame on* kind of thread. If you wish something like that, please start your own thread and watch it go down in flames. (pun intended) Also, English is not my native language, so feel free to correct my language, spelling and such.

Let's get going!



Last edited by maglofster; 06/04/2011 at 07:27 AM.
maglofster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 07:47 AM   #2
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,372
I think photoinhibition would be interesting to look at. Everybody seems to run their scrubber lit for 18 hr a day. Maybe in some setups this is ideal. I suspect that with intensely lit scrubbers this is not the case. An O2 senser plumbed to the scrubber drain would reveal what is going on.

I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 07:52 AM   #3
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,372
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/134/m134p207.pdf


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 07:53 AM   #4
redneckgearhead
Registered Member
 
redneckgearhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by salty joe View Post
I think photoinhibition would be interesting to look at. Everybody seems to run their scrubber lit for 18 hr a day. Maybe in some setups this is ideal. I suspect that with intensely lit scrubbers this is not the case. An O2 senser plumbed to the scrubber drain would reveal what is going on.

I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.
Ive read a similar idea, so on my scrubber I started to run my lights on 4 hour intervals off for 4 hours, I have since raised it to 5 and 3 and It seems to get a little better growth now. But since this thread is being started maybe I should start adjusting the light schedule and measuring how much growth I can get with each one. And where would we get an 02 sensor for saltwater?


__________________
Scott

75 gallon soon to be 90 gallon reef

55 gallon FOWLR
Life aint goin as planned? Look to the two things you can change...YOUR perspective and YOUR actions!

Current Tank Info: 75g reef
redneckgearhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 07:59 AM   #5
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,372
Kind of pricey, but here.

http://www.marinedepot.com/American_...TEMOID-vi.html


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 09:09 AM   #6
redneckgearhead
Registered Member
 
redneckgearhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 507
Hmm, thanks for the link. Now how to get it to graph the 02 level.....hmmm I wonder if a small PLC would do it. Ive been contemplating integrating a PLC into my tank. Ok time for some more research. Thanks Joe


__________________
Scott

75 gallon soon to be 90 gallon reef

55 gallon FOWLR
Life aint goin as planned? Look to the two things you can change...YOUR perspective and YOUR actions!

Current Tank Info: 75g reef
redneckgearhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 09:21 AM   #7
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,372
Just curious, what kind of lights do you have on your scrubber? The reason I ask is, unless you are running something fairly intense like T5s at point blank range, it might be a waste of time to try and find when photoinhibition occurs.


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 09:27 AM   #8
redneckgearhead
Registered Member
 
redneckgearhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 507
Im running the 4 total 23 watt cfl's. You think that with these lights they will never reach full photoinhibition? would LED's work better?


__________________
Scott

75 gallon soon to be 90 gallon reef

55 gallon FOWLR
Life aint goin as planned? Look to the two things you can change...YOUR perspective and YOUR actions!

Current Tank Info: 75g reef
redneckgearhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 09:45 AM   #9
maglofster
Registered Member
 
maglofster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by salty joe View Post
I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.
This is very interesting. I have been thinking about running two scrubbers - but that has been to get a more even export (cleaning one on Wednesday and the other on Sunday) than I get now. Photoinhibition is another good reason. Currently I run all my scrubbers on 24W T5 @ 3000K but have been thinking on trying out 10W powerled modules.


maglofster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 10:47 AM   #10
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by redneckgearhead View Post
Im running the 4 total 23 watt cfl's. You think that with these lights they will never reach full photoinhibition? would LED's work better?
I don't know. If it were me, I would not spend the money on an O2 sensor if I were running cfls.


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 10:48 AM   #11
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by maglofster View Post
This is very interesting. I have been thinking about running two scrubbers - but that has been to get a more even export (cleaning one on Wednesday and the other on Sunday) than I get now. Photoinhibition is another good reason. Currently I run all my scrubbers on 24W T5 @ 3000K but have been thinking on trying out 10W powerled modules.
I also would expect rock solid steady PH with alternating scrubbers.


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 10:51 AM   #12
srusso
Registered Member
 
srusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bridgeport, CT
Posts: 1,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by maglofster View Post
We have on this forum (imho) an excellent thread - Algae Scrubber Basics - created by srusso (thanks man!). Now I think it could be wise to start a thread about the more advanced topics in Algae Turf Scrubbing.

For the theory as it stands, all basic questions, designs and other basic stuff about ATS, go HERE.

Since I'm an avid aquarium DIY nerd, and have been for 20 years, I recently jumped on the ATS-wagon to see what it would do for me. So far I have experience from five different versions. Versions that are open, closed and with CFL, T5:s as light plus all sorts of different media to grow the algae. One could say there are as many versions as there are people scrubbing.

One thing is for sure - this is a method that not many people use compared to other more proven methods. Maybe it will rise in popularity in the future or maybe it will be forgotten over the next "flavor of the month". But I think it's time for a collective scientific approach. I think we need to discuss and try out different methods and approaches to scrubbing in a scientific way to see what is good, what is bad and where this method can be refined.

One might look at the open source movement of GNU / Linux - They have enjoyed tremendous success due to the fact that they work as a collective (well mostly) all over the world. I think we have an opportunity to do this as well. Crowd-sourcing to gather data, draw conclusions and figure out solutions to problems.

Some topics I think could be included in this thread:

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?
* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?
* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?
* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?
* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?

This thread is NOT intended as a "it doesn't work" *flame on* kind of thread. If you wish something like that, please start your own thread and watch it go down in flames. (pun intended) Also, English is not my native language, so feel free to correct my language, spelling and such.

Let's get going!
Thank you very much, and I must say an excellent start to this thread!! Well said, and you should be proud of your english, as it is eloquent and well stated. Better than my own...


__________________
70 Gallon Oceanic | Coral Reef | Apex Controller | Algae Scrubber |Started 8/14/2010
General Interest Forums > Advanced Topics > Algae Scrubber Basics Thread
Basics Write Up - Post #1 | Quick Troubleshooting - Post #1902 | Alternate/Updated Sizing - Post #2723 | Latest Summary - Post #3251 - #3264
srusso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 10:52 AM   #13
redneckgearhead
Registered Member
 
redneckgearhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by salty joe View Post
I don't know. If it were me, I would not spend the money on an O2 sensor if I were running cfls.
While they may not be ideal, I do get a decent amount of growth with them and if I move them to close it will turn the algae yellow. I know I could get better coverage with t5's or LED's so I might look into a cost/benefit analysis. And running a 02 sensor would help prove what light is best and if CFL's are sufficient.


__________________
Scott

75 gallon soon to be 90 gallon reef

55 gallon FOWLR
Life aint goin as planned? Look to the two things you can change...YOUR perspective and YOUR actions!

Current Tank Info: 75g reef
redneckgearhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 11:02 AM   #14
srusso
Registered Member
 
srusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bridgeport, CT
Posts: 1,866
If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.


__________________
70 Gallon Oceanic | Coral Reef | Apex Controller | Algae Scrubber |Started 8/14/2010
General Interest Forums > Advanced Topics > Algae Scrubber Basics Thread
Basics Write Up - Post #1 | Quick Troubleshooting - Post #1902 | Alternate/Updated Sizing - Post #2723 | Latest Summary - Post #3251 - #3264

Last edited by srusso; 06/04/2011 at 11:19 AM.
srusso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 11:18 AM   #15
srusso
Registered Member
 
srusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bridgeport, CT
Posts: 1,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by salty joe View Post
Could I use an ORP probe to get a good data for photoinhabition?

Randy explains in this link how ORP works, and I know my apex can take this probe. I could began to possibly provide some relevant data. I haven't yet read the link you provided about photoinhabition so please excuse my ignorance on the topic.

If so I will purchase the probe as soon as I can.


http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php


__________________
70 Gallon Oceanic | Coral Reef | Apex Controller | Algae Scrubber |Started 8/14/2010
General Interest Forums > Advanced Topics > Algae Scrubber Basics Thread
Basics Write Up - Post #1 | Quick Troubleshooting - Post #1902 | Alternate/Updated Sizing - Post #2723 | Latest Summary - Post #3251 - #3264
srusso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 03:03 PM   #16
salty joe
Registered Member
 
salty joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: medina, ohio
Posts: 2,372
From what I gathered from the first part of that article, probably not.


__________________
Time to roll the dice.
salty joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 03:06 PM   #17
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,112
Blog Entries: 15
I was initially thinking that there's no way this discussion is going to fly on this site. Everyone who wishes to discuss this, on both sides, needs to be on their Ps and Qs. I personally don't have a ton of free time to dig up data so you may not see me posting on here a lot. But I'll follow it...and we'll see how it goes!


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 03:16 PM   #18
maglofster
Registered Member
 
maglofster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by srusso View Post
If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.
I can give it a try later on. I have read EVERY post in that thread. Lots of good information in there!


maglofster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 03:18 PM   #19
maglofster
Registered Member
 
maglofster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
Everyone who wishes to discuss this, on both sides, needs to be on their Ps and Qs.
Exactly!


maglofster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/04/2011, 08:30 PM   #20
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,112
Blog Entries: 15
As was mentioned in the basics thread, I am working on setting up a controlled experiment using multiple independent (and isolated) systems using various LED combinations in an attempt to 1) pinpoint the optimal growth spectrum and 2) monitor nutrient uptake. #2 is really secondary, but since it only minimally impacts #1 to sample and test water, why not (gotta do it anyways). There may be other pertinent data, but mainly I am working on this to try and pin down the spectrum issue, as it seems there has not really been any study to date that really shows the optimal artificial spectrum for growing algae for our purposes.

It may also reveal the dominant type of algae grown under each given light source, or combinations of light sources, as well as the efficiency of said algae.

Should be interesting. If I have the time, I'll periodically post about the experiment, but the detailed thread about it is not on this site.


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/05/2011, 12:19 AM   #21
mrbncal
Registered Member
 
mrbncal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Redding
Posts: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by salty joe View Post
I think photoinhibition . . . On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.
I can only offer my experiences with this as "proof", but due to a lack of outlets I run my lights 24/7. During the scrubbers intitial breakin period of 4-5 weeks the algae grew like crazy and I got enormous amounts of stringy growth on the screen.

Now after almost 2 years of the same 24/7 schedule the results are obvious. The algae is very thin and weak. Also there has been an increase in DT algae in certain areas. IMHO this is a very important part of the ATS that really needs to be followed correctly for long term success.



Last edited by mrbncal; 06/05/2011 at 12:21 AM. Reason: PS - Thanks for the new thread!
mrbncal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/05/2011, 08:00 AM   #22
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,112
Blog Entries: 15
Cardinal rule violation! You need to run 18/6. Everything needs dark time. Get a shorty extension cord and a timer. Also have you been replacing your lamps?


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/05/2011, 10:07 AM   #23
slow_leak
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 569
Blog Entries: 4
As far as tuning a scrubber, I would look at factors that limit growth, and do not think a well aerated tank would have a O2 deficiency.

I suspect limiting factors to growth are light, nitrogen, phosphorous, flow rate, and surface area and possibly micronutrients.

When I set up ATS originally I used iron gluconate to test whether micronutrients were a limiting part of algae growth. It appeared it was. I then widened slot and and put in larger pump, and again I suspect flow rate limits growth.

Another issue I am concerned about if nitrate limitation would lead to cyano in display tank. However this may be overcome with adjusting other factors such as light levels or flow rates.

In freshwater planted aquarium, a standard recipe is used to easily grow vascular plants.

1) adjust CO2 levels to 10-15 ppm by injection and controller.
2) add micro nutrient mix for 2 weeks to remove this a limitation
3) add mixture of Potassium chloride and potassium nitrate, maybe 2:1 to reach 5-10 ppm nitrate. Will remove blue-green algae when present.
4) spike phosphates when symptoms of phosphate limitation are seen.

For reef tanks, I suspect iron gluconate may infact also intially lead to cyano. For corals I also much prefer to feed more. instead of add nutrients as organisms are heterotrophic.


slow_leak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/05/2011, 06:19 PM   #24
mrbncal
Registered Member
 
mrbncal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Redding
Posts: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
Cardinal rule violation! You need to run 18/6. Everything needs dark time. Get a shorty extension cord and a timer. Also have you been replacing your lamps?
I know, i know. . . lol. Kind of embarassing to admit that

Its a physical limitation, I just dont have any more outlets. I am going to have to come up with something though. . . also, yes the lights get changed on time. Every three months when I change the chemipure.


mrbncal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/05/2011, 07:58 PM   #25
srusso
Registered Member
 
srusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bridgeport, CT
Posts: 1,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbncal View Post
I know, i know. . . lol. Kind of embarassing to admit that

Its a physical limitation, I just dont have any more outlets. I am going to have to come up with something though. . . also, yes the lights get changed on time. Every three months when I change the chemipure.
Head to walmart,
For a few bucks go buy a power strip. If you don't have space for a power strip, get an outlet splitter. It's designed to turn a standard pair into six outlets. Even comes with screws to replace the face plate of the outlet. Also if you have a lot of D/C adapters you should grab some short 6" extensions, so you are able to get full use of all outlets. And most importantly grab your self a indoor/outdoor timer... Plug a power strip into it... You could get everything you could need for less then $20.

Thank you for being honest.


__________________
70 Gallon Oceanic | Coral Reef | Apex Controller | Algae Scrubber |Started 8/14/2010
General Interest Forums > Advanced Topics > Algae Scrubber Basics Thread
Basics Write Up - Post #1 | Quick Troubleshooting - Post #1902 | Alternate/Updated Sizing - Post #2723 | Latest Summary - Post #3251 - #3264

Last edited by srusso; 06/05/2011 at 08:10 PM.
srusso is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
algae scrubber/heavy metals charles matthews Randy Holmes-Farley 6 11/03/2016 09:32 PM
xenia scrubber instead of algae scrubber? dolt SPS Keepers 40 04/07/2011 12:34 PM
Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter. Frick-n-Frags Reef Discussion 166 08/03/2008 04:58 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:47 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014