25g seagrass tank updates

[lljdma06]

I want more pictures. Give me more pictures...

You know now that since I've upgraded the light to a 150w MH, the grasses seem to be growing more. Hmmmm. I'm seeing new shoots.

[Amphiprion]

Well, I attempted to get a shot of the tank and noticed my digital camera's battery was dead. So then I attempted to use my phone and the lights then went out. I can't win, obviously, so here's a crummy pic via phone with the tank lights out until I can get a better one tomorrow:



Glad to hear about the halide. It certainly added a certain flair to your tank in terms of shimmer, which is very nice. I figured your grasses would get a boost out of it.

[Amphiprion]

Okay, finally some pics (and I did upload a really short vid).







A few things.

Yes, I bleached the crap out of that poor little Montipora frag. I raised the fixture 6" above its current spot, making a total of about 14" above the water. Obviously not enough and I've since raised it hoping for the best. It didn't help when the blenny in the video decided to rend it of its flesh in select spots.

If anyone thinks there's still a fair amount of cyanobacteria left, there is. However, compared to what it was after disturbing the muck, it is pristine, lol. It is getting better daily, though.

Lastly, I have zero photography or videography skills. Please excuse them .

[lljdma06]

I love it when people do what I tell them to do. It's awesome.

Tank looks very good. Love the density of the grasses. It's pretty.

Originally Posted by Amphiprion

Glad to hear about the halide. It certainly added a certain flair to your tank in terms of shimmer, which is very nice. I figured your grasses would get a boost out of it.

Thank you. I have to give that tank the HD camera treatment again. LOLOL If my grasses get 1/2 as dense as yours, I'll be stoked. May be difficult, though, as it's a mixed system and I've not added anything to the substrate, nor am I dosing. So, I'm on slow motion with the sea grass. But it's still alive, I see roots, and I see new shoots.

[keydiver]

gorgeous tank. I love the thickness of the grasses

[Plantbrain]

BTW, in higher concentrations, all aquatic rooted plants, enrich the sediment with ........O2, so this causes dramatic changes in the bacterial populations there. While the NO3 are low, there is less denitrification occurring as the rug of grass grows.............and more direct NH4/NO3 uptake.

Food waste etc for the fish.......directly into NH4=> uptake......likely helped the grass take off and maintain.

I do not think sediment ferts will play a large role. This plant did no better in the mud than the plain sand for me. I would put it in a more mature sand bed.
I had similar infauna as well.

The Redox of the sediment changes dramatically as the plants take off.
All the infauna provides nutrients and recycling, this source of ferts never even shows up on test, you can trace it via stable isotopes and N15 labeled NO3 and NH4 however, not typical stuff hobbyists have access to, but might provide some fun work for a lowly grad student looking for something interesting with the rare seagrass.

I broke the tank down because I lack the time at the moment to deal with it and I'll get growing again in a year or so after we move.

I'd add say 2 ppm of NO3 as Ca(NO3)2, see where the PO4 goes from there for the next 2-3 days.

Current seem to help a lot, I fluffed the algae off, they did not seem to mind some. The massive snail population I had were underfed and went after some of it, irritated some of the blades. Needed to strike a balance with them and or feed them more/remove them.

The Cyano I got I got from using Cyno based food for the shrimp and snails
I'd fluff it off, the plants still grew fine though. I used some Red slime remover, but this killed off something in the sediment and the plants did poorly. Stupid. They recovered later though.

[3D-Reef]

Originally Posted by Plantbrain

The Cyano I got I got from using Cyno based food for the shrimp and snails
I'd fluff it off, the plants still grew fine though. I used some Red slime remover, but this killed off something in the sediment and the plants did poorly. Stupid. They recovered later though.

Been there done that!That's why I started dosing vinegar right after redoing the fuge.

Originally Posted by Plantbrain

BTW, in higher concentrations, all aquatic rooted plants, enrich the sediment with ........O2, so this causes dramatic changes in the bacterial populations there. While the NO3 are low, there is less denitrification occurring as the rug of grass grows.............and more direct NH4/NO3 uptake.

Food waste etc for the fish.......directly into NH4=> uptake......likely helped the grass take off and maintain.

I do not think sediment ferts will play a large role. This plant did no better in the mud than the plain sand for me. I would put it in a more mature sand bed.
I had similar infauna as well.

The Redox of the sediment changes dramatically as the plants take off.
All the infauna provides nutrients and recycling, this source of ferts never even shows up on test, you can trace it via stable isotopes and N15 labeled NO3 and NH4 however, not typical stuff hobbyists have access to, but might provide some fun work for a lowly grad student looking for something interesting with the rare seagrass.

I'm glad I'm not the only One thinking in this direction.I was starting think I was off My rocker.

[Amphiprion]

Originally Posted by Plantbrain

BTW, in higher concentrations, all aquatic rooted plants, enrich the sediment with ........O2, so this causes dramatic changes in the bacterial populations there. While the NO3 are low, there is less denitrification occurring as the rug of grass grows.............and more direct NH4/NO3 uptake.

Food waste etc for the fish.......directly into NH4=> uptake......likely helped the grass take off and maintain.

I do not think sediment ferts will play a large role. This plant did no better in the mud than the plain sand for me. I would put it in a more mature sand bed.
I had similar infauna as well.

The Redox of the sediment changes dramatically as the plants take off.
All the infauna provides nutrients and recycling, this source of ferts never even shows up on test, you can trace it via stable isotopes and N15 labeled NO3 and NH4 however, not typical stuff hobbyists have access to, but might provide some fun work for a lowly grad student looking for something interesting with the rare seagrass.

I broke the tank down because I lack the time at the moment to deal with it and I'll get growing again in a year or so after we move.

I'd add say 2 ppm of NO3 as Ca(NO3)2, see where the PO4 goes from there for the next 2-3 days.

Current seem to help a lot, I fluffed the algae off, they did not seem to mind some. The massive snail population I had were underfed and went after some of it, irritated some of the blades. Needed to strike a balance with them and or feed them more/remove them.

The Cyano I got I got from using Cyno based food for the shrimp and snails
I'd fluff it off, the plants still grew fine though. I used some Red slime remover, but this killed off something in the sediment and the plants did poorly. Stupid. They recovered later though.

It's been an ongoing battle the last several months against the cyanobacteria. Having to disturb the bed often to remove plants is, IMHO, leading to much of this. I've been using a combination of Ca(NO3)2 and KNO3, depending upon the Ca++ concentration, but mostly the former. I've actually been adding close to 1-2 ppm about every other day, as that is how quickly it is assimilated. The cyanobacteria seems to wane slightly at times, while gaining a foothold at other times, despite steadily maintained NO3 concentrations. Right now the cyano is disappearing on its own--more so since I've removed the GFO. Not sure if PO4 was actually limited for the grasses/algae or if the iron was usable by the cyanobacteria. The latter wouldn't be surprising, just as they like using the sediment/detritus stirred by my uprooting for their P needs. The fish also seem to like to dig up select areas occasionally and spread sand/silt everywhere, which is likely not helping the situation.

Edit: 3D, are you using a protein skimmer in conjunction with the vinegar dosing? I'm not using a skimmer any longer since the pump decided to die on me. I've considered dosing some sort of organic carbon to hopefully help slightly, but I don't like the idea of doing it without skimming.

[3D-Reef]

Yeah,it's a Vortex,or something like that.It's rated for a 75-100g and I run ~200g.So it is under rated.
If I miss a vinegar dose or two,the cyano begins too show up again.A little bit of red tint too the sand.

On a side note: I think the vinegar is helping with the grass growing.I can't prove it,but it didn't take as long too get the grass established this time, and it's retaining more leaves now.3 leaves vs 5 now.

[Amphiprion]

Well, reducing particulate organics would probably help me out a lot. When I get the cash, I may consider not only getting a new needlewheel pump, but I may consider vinegar dosing again. I had done it many years ago with kalkwasser after reading a Craig Bingman article--much of the effects of the dosing I observed were later confirmed by Randy and others in subsequent articles.

[Plantbrain]

I work with Acetic acid in sediment and it's herbicidal effects.

It is more toxic to plants and algae than equal molar concentrations of HCL or other strong acids.

In marine tanks, it'll destroy alkalinity. It likely is rapidly broken down by chemical and then bacteria before really doing much damage to the Cyano, so the effects are likely secondary.

A small rubber weighted mat over the area and then pipettee some acetic acid would be far better at targeting the BGA, but I do not think ANYONE in the hobby has even done or even considered that.

acetic acid goes into plant tissue and the middle lamellae has a pH of about 5.5, so the acid easily moves across the this into the cell and across the plasma membrane, once inside the cell, the conjugate form cannot get out at a pH of 7.5 since it cannot cross the non polar membrane. This is called a "pH ion trap" and kills the cell.

HCL just toast the plasma membrane and is not able to get in and kill the cell internally.

I think you'd need quite a bit of acetic acid to directly kill the BGA, but the secondary impacts from lowering KH/pH, might be the main issue for the results commonly seen. Acetic acid will also often lower the redox in sediments.

[Amphiprion]

Originally Posted by Plantbrain

I work with Acetic acid in sediment and it's herbicidal effects.

It is more toxic to plants and algae than equal molar concentrations of HCL or other strong acids.

In marine tanks, it'll destroy alkalinity. It likely is rapidly broken down by chemical and then bacteria before really doing much damage to the Cyano, so the effects are likely secondary.

A small rubber weighted mat over the area and then pipettee some acetic acid would be far better at targeting the BGA, but I do not think ANYONE in the hobby has even done or even considered that.

acetic acid goes into plant tissue and the middle lamellae has a pH of about 5.5, so the acid easily moves across the this into the cell and across the plasma membrane, once inside the cell, the conjugate form cannot get out at a pH of 7.5 since it cannot cross the non polar membrane. This is called a "pH ion trap" and kills the cell.

HCL just toast the plasma membrane and is not able to get in and kill the cell internally.

I think you'd need quite a bit of acetic acid to directly kill the BGA, but the secondary impacts from lowering KH/pH, might be the main issue for the results commonly seen. Acetic acid will also often lower the redox in sediments.

I wasn't trying to use it in any sort of concentrated form or as a direct microbicide/herbicide. It would be used in very small concentrations to encourage the growth of bacteria.

I don't recall all of the chemistry immediately, but vinegar should not result in a net decrease over time, since the microbial action eventually contributes CO2 and HCO3 back into the system.

[eddiesylas]

My KNO3 and Ca(NO3)2 show up in the mail today. If I have any real success stories I will definitely pass them on as we are dealing with the same strain of cyano...

[Amphiprion]

Originally Posted by eddiesylas

My KNO3 and Ca(NO3)2 show up in the mail today. If I have any real success stories I will definitely pass them on as we are dealing with the same strain of cyano...

Definitely keep everything updated. I'll do the same. I think I've got it down to where it is disappearing on its own, hopefully. I'll know in the coming weeks, anyway.

The grasses looking okay?

[Plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Amphiprion

I wasn't trying to use it in any sort of concentrated form or as a direct microbicide/herbicide. It would be used in very small concentrations to encourage the growth of bacteria.

I don't recall all of the chemistry immediately, but vinegar should not result in a net decrease over time, since the microbial action eventually contributes CO2 and HCO3 back into the system.

Well, if you are merely relieving the reduced Carbon limitation on the denitrifying and other bacteria, then any old form will work fine.

Sugar, booze, vinegar etc.

The small amounts added will not influence the alk much in that case.
At least relative to a typical tank full of weeds and plants.

[hustlah]

I love this. Where do you think I can get the oar grass?

[Amphiprion]

Well, a little update with good news. It seems that despite the fact that I've been neglecting the tank, I officially have a new Thalassia plantlet as of a few days ago. It sprouted right next to the other two, giving me a whopping total of three. Man, these things are slow. The leaf growth for me is pretty fast, with turnover being every week or so, but actual rhizome growth is at a snail's pace. I'm noticing the Halophila slowing as the Thalassia begins to take off more, so it seems like the species succession is proceeding toward natural maturation of the bed.

[Amphiprion]

Updates after thinning and the right side dying off. I've noticed that the rhizomes in this species will occasionally die en masse. Anyway, this is after a much needed blackout and water change. (Note how much the Thalassia decided to grow).