What's Your Problem With Bio-Pellets?

[Spracklcat]

Originally Posted by badonkadonk

No direct experience myself, but when the pellets don't tumble they start to stick together and then act as a detritus trap, probably going anaerobic in the interior as they degrade and may end up working against you.

Why is this bad? How do you know?

[EddieJ]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

The problem is that the zeo sales literature claims:

"ZEOstart accelerates the cycling process in new tanks. Fishes, hard and soft corals can be added safely in approximately 3 weeks after adding water to a new tank. "

That is not just a carbon source, or if it is, it is misleadingly described and is really intended to be used with other products that actually do the cycling. One cannot cycle a tank by just adding vinegar.

ZeoStart 2 & 3 are not intended to be used as a stand alone product. It must be used with ZeoBak, ZeoFood and the ZeoLiths (rocks). That is the basic 4 that can have a tank ready to go in 14 days. You do have to use live rock as well, if you use dry rock your time will be greatly extended.

ZeoBak is the bacteria, ZeoStart is the carbon source along with ZeoFood/Sponge Power and the Zeoliths are the media on which the bacteria colonize. Of course that is not the only place. I will say that ZeoStart is a highly concentrated carbon source, as I am dosing 1.2 ML a day on my 250 gallon system and that was a bit much and caused some cyano. On my previous tank I used to dose around 12ML of Vodka with the same basic livestock load.

In any event, I don't read word for word any of the Zeovit literature as the English translation is not always the best. I have read some of Thomas Pohl's posts (creator of Zeovit system) and his English is not the best to say the least.

So anyhow, back on topic, I experienced cyano due to excessive carbon dosing (not with BioPellets, but with ZeoStart) in a tank that was at 0 Nitrates and very low (.01-.02) phosphates.

[acesq]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Well, if you start with dry rock and add salt water and vinegar, you will get bacteria, but not the nitrifying bacteria bacteria needed to drive the nitrogen cycle. You need a source of ammonia.

I know we are a bit off-topic, but I am curious about your statement.

Theoretically at least, is ammonia produced by the bacterial consumption of the carbon source? If so, would this allow the growth of the nitrifying bacteria?

[burnah]

is it true that there are 2 strains (i know, wont be that easy ) of cyano, one that lives in nutrient rich, and the other one in almost nutrient free water? thats what the owner of my LFS explained to me. you can get cyano by too many nutrients or too little nutrients.

most strategies for killing cyanos have so far been (in my point of view) for tanks with too many nutrients, and thus not applicable for tanks like ours, carbon dosed.

i wonder whether there can be a strategie to solve this? things ive tried so far: water changes, sucking it out, adding BIODIGEST in doses for highly polluted water to drive up beneficial bacteria, lights out, more flow. NOTHING helped. i have crystal clear water, happy corals and fish but the cyano will not vanish, even after stopping carbon dosing.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by acesq

I know we are a bit off-topic, but I am curious about your statement.

Theoretically at least, is ammonia produced by the bacterial consumption of the carbon source? If so, would this allow the growth of the nitrifying bacteria?

There is no nitrogen source in vinegar (or vodka) to allow production of ammonia. It is metabolized to CO2 and water only.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by EddieJ

ZeoStart 2 & 3 are not intended to be used as a stand alone product. It must be used with ZeoBak, ZeoFood and the ZeoLiths (rocks). That is the basic 4 that can have a tank ready to go in 14 days. You do have to use live rock as well, if you use dry rock your time will be greatly extended.

ZeoBak is the bacteria, ZeoStart is the carbon source along with ZeoFood/Sponge Power and the Zeoliths are the media on which the bacteria colonize. Of course that is not the only place. I will say that ZeoStart is a highly concentrated carbon source, as I am dosing 1.2 ML a day on my 250 gallon system and that was a bit much and caused some cyano. On my previous tank I used to dose around 12ML of Vodka with the same basic livestock load.

That makes more sense, although I do not see then what Zeostart actually does. Nitrifying bacteria are generally claimed in the literature to be chemolithotrophs and do not (cannot) take up organic matter for metabolism, so I fail to see how adding an organic carbon sources speeds that process in the slightest.

It would speed denitrification, as well all know.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by burnah

is it true that there are 2 strains (i know, wont be that easy ) of cyano, one that lives in nutrient rich, and the other one in almost nutrient free water? thats what the owner of my LFS explained to me. you can get cyano by too many nutrients or too little nutrients.

.

There are tons of species of cyanobacteria. Some may be more suited to lower nutrient environments than others, but I think the idea that lower nutrients cause a particular type to grow more than that same species would at higher nutrient levels and everything else the same is just not cutting it, IMO. In general, lowering phosphate low enough without adding anything else can almost always eliminate cyano.

While I do not doubt there might be a case of something somewhere, I've never heard of any type of bacteria or algae that is deterred by elevated nutrients until those nutrients rise so incredibly high that they become toxic (like acetate/acetic acid rising all the way to being vinegar, which kills bacteria).

OTOH, competition changes as nutrient levels change, and a particular species of cyano might be outcompeted by other organisms at higher or lower nutrient levels, but at just the right levels it is the dominant consumer in the tank. The Goldilocks cyano.

[acesq]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

There is no nitrogen source in vinegar (or vodka) to allow production of ammonia. It is metabolized to CO2 and water only.

Got it. Thanks!

[ihavtats29]

i read this on a site with a write up on NP Bio Pellets

"On average this “solid vodka method” takes 2-4 weeks to give rise to sufficient bacteria to allow nitrate and phosphate levels to drop."

if so removing other media like GFO and phosphate sponges ext and starting the bio pellets you may get a change in parameters causing these cyano outbreaks.
BRS also states that allowing 8 weeks for proper bacteria propagation.

[t.trezona]

Originally Posted by Psionicdragon

The bad thing that I have experience is if you turn it off for a day or two, the anerobic bacteria starts to build up and blacken the media temporary. When you restart it, it releases sulfur into the system.

Another thing is that it clumps when there aren't enough flow or that there is too much "film" inside the reactor. I had to switch to different reactors multiple time, but in the end, you just have to clean the pellets once a week.

Ya, that's a potential problem I don't like either. So, I wired mine so that if the power goes off it stays off when the power comes back on. Then I have bypass valving so that I can flush the reactor down the drain when I start back up.

[m2434]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

There are tons of species of cyanobacteria. Some may be more suited to lower nutrient environments than others, but I think the idea that lower nutrients cause a particular type to grow more than that same species would at higher nutrient levels and everything else the same is just not cutting it, IMO. In general, lowering phosphate low enough without adding anything else can almost always eliminate cyano.

While I do not doubt there might be a case of something somewhere, I've never heard of any type of bacteria or algae that is deterred by elevated nutrients until those nutrients rise so incredibly high that they become toxic (like acetate/acetic acid rising all the way to being vinegar, which kills bacteria).

OTOH, competition changes as nutrient levels change, and a particular species of cyano might be outcompeted by other organisms at higher or lower nutrient levels, but at just the right levels it is the dominant consumer in the tank. The Goldilocks cyano.

Well, one reason cyano may be associated with low nutrient environments is luxury consumption of nutrients, particularly P. So, when other competitors are dying off, it may have reserves left to keep going.

One question I have though, is seeing that some cyano strains seems to accumulate PHAs, such as Poly-β-hydroxybutyrate (PHB) and many biopellets are PHA based, is there any reason to assume that cyano would not be well adapted to use external PHA sources?

Seems that a lot of people experience some cyano with BP, and this seems like a likely connection as far as I can tell anyways...


For example:
From Bhati et al. (2010)

"Poly‐β‐hydroxybutyrate accumulation in cyanobacteria under photoautotrophy"


Abstract

Poly-β-hydroxybutyrate (PHB) is a biodegradable and biocompatible polymer that has immense potential in the field of environmental, agricultural and biomedical sciences. An alternative host system has been explored in this study for low-cost production. Examination of 25 cyanobacterial species from 19 different genera for photoautrophic production of polyhydroxyalkanoates (PHAs) under batch culture demonstrated that 20 species were poly-β-hydroxybutyrate (PHB) accumulators, while others were found to be negative. Presence of PHB was confirmed by UV-spectroscopy, 1H-NMR spectroscopy and GC-MS analysis. Accumulation of PHB in cyanobacteria was found to be species specific. The PHB extracted from Nostoc muscorum exhibited comparable material properties with the commercial PHB, thus advocating its potential applications in various fields.

[m2434]

Another Question I had is, has anyone run the BP effluent through GAC instead of a skimmer? And if so, what was your experience. It seems likely that BP is releasing something, but is that something bacteria or carbon directly. Bacteria, once in the system, without a carbon source could break down into organic carbon. So, diner way you could end up raising C in he display. From what I've seen, GAC may be better at removing organic carbon, but probably less efficient at removing bacteria. So, it would be interesting to see if running the effluent through GAC improved the outcome.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's an interesting thought. The GAC might bind released organics directly, and might also be a good substrate for bacteria to grow on that would consume them (my GAC gets bacteria coated with vinegar dosing).

[amfynn]

Originally Posted by Zedar

A few years ago it was believed that cyano was caused from carbon dosing driving nitrates down to zero.

Under a zero nitrate (or so low its undetectable) condition. Cyano thrives because they can pull carbon from the atmosphere while the bacteria we are trying to grow starves.
In other words we remove their competition when we dose carbon and allow nitrate to go to zero.

You perhaps have more info relating to this? Should one then purposefully try and up their nitrates in an effort to fix the problem?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is presumably a typo in the above quote. It should read

"Cyano thrives because they can pull nitrogen from the atmosphere"

That is one reason why phosphate reduction is a good way to go after cyano (like with GFO) when nitrate reduction may not be.

[EddieJ]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

There is presumably a typo in the above quote. It should read

"Cyano thrives because they can pull nitrogen from the atmosphere"

That is one reason why phosphate reduction is a good way to go after cyano (like with GFO) when nitrate reduction may not be.

So in a very low nitrate and phosphate environment, cyano can use the carbon source as it's fuel one would assume correct? As it does show up in ULN systems as well.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, cyanobacteria can use organic carbon for energy, at least some organic molecules. A variety of articles suggest that some species do not use vinegar (acetate) well.

But it still needs N and P. Those are not used for energy, they are used to make organic molecules of life, like proteins, DNA, phospholipids, etc. Some cyano species may be able to get N from N2 from the air, but P must come from phosphate of some sort (organic or inorganic) in the water.

[t.trezona]

Originally Posted by m2434

Another Question I had is, has anyone run the BP effluent through GAC instead of a skimmer? And if so, what was your experience. It seems likely that BP is releasing something, but is that something bacteria or carbon directly. Bacteria, once in the system, without a carbon source could break down into organic carbon. So, diner way you could end up raising C in he display. From what I've seen, GAC may be better at removing organic carbon, but probably less efficient at removing bacteria. So, it would be interesting to see if running the effluent through GAC improved the outcome.

Problem with that is that it looks like the bacteria that grow on the pellets create sticky slime that would probably clog up GAC pretty quickly. I would guess a mucopolysaccharide of some sort. Many people report slime strings that come off the pellets. I know in my system it clogs my reactor outlet screen fairly quickly.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If that slime is a simple organic material rather than a bacterial mat, perhaps that is what the remote cyanobacteria are eating.

Slime in general, however, could be mats of the bacteria themselves.

[amfynn]

Thank you Randy, certainly has given me something to ponder about.

[m2434]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

There is presumably a typo in the above quote. It should read

"Cyano thrives because they can pull nitrogen from the atmosphere"

Well, in all fairness, cyano can pull carbon from the atmosphere too

Back to "seriousness"

It would be great to somehow quantify how much bacteria can be exported on the surface of GAC. Though really, I have no guess even. I would think you could guesstimate the surface area of the GAC. Are there any useful estimates of biofilm density that would apply to films living on the surface of GAC?

Also, as to the stringy stuff. I haven't heard this as a complaint, maybe it depends on the BP? Also, does that not effect a skimmer? Seems "bioslime" junks up skimmer pumps pretty good too IME.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by m2434

Well, in all fairness, cyano can pull carbon from the atmosphere too

.

Quite true. Maybe it wasn't a typo, but if not, the paragraph overall doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't know how to estimate bacteria on GAC. The surface area available to bacteria may not even be known for many types.

[Johnyman]

Originally Posted by asonitez

Well my setup is straight forward.

Skimz SM201 Rated for 580g
3 X Vortech Mp40
2X Koralia Evo
160lbs of Rock
100lbs lbs of Live Sand
Metal Halide Radiums 20K X 2 250w + 4x T5 54w Ati Blue Plus

I'm running my BRS biopellets in a NextReef MR1 Reactor with NextReef's Biopellet conversion Kit. I started with a full load and immediately got a big bacterial bloom which went away after 2 or 3 days. Water cleared up and then I got crazy amount of skimmate. After this it all settled down.

Tested parameters and everything zeroed out. I am however getting Cyano Algae During the day which goes away after the main lights go out... Then by half day I got cyano again. I haven't done a major water change since but I plan to do one tonight. I switched my salt to ReefCrystals and have been raising my Alk and Magnesium over the last 2 weeks. My Effluent from the bio-pellet reactor dumps right into the mouth of my skimmer so a lot of the water is pulled into the skimmer. I think that once I siphon out my sand and a lot of the cyano that my problem will go away. I've started the red-sea coral program which I've seen AMAZING results. I highly reccomend it over zeovit only because its easier to get, easier to dose, and everything you dose you can measure the level of it in your water. Its helluva lot cheaper too.

Hi asonitez, you are using the Red Sea Program with Bio-Pellets or you quit the Biopellets to start using the Red Sea Program?

[asonitez]

Nope I'm still using the red sea program. I found out that my corals paled a bit due to stripping the water. The aminos from the red sea program is bring back my colors. I've also increased my fish bioload. I only and 7 small fish in. 150 lol.... With over 300 gal volume. I increased to about 12 fish.

[t.trezona]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

If that slime is a simple organic material rather than a bacterial mat, perhaps that is what the remote cyanobacteria are eating.

Slime in general, however, could be mats of the bacteria themselves.

Ok let's find out about this. Next week when I am back in the country I will make some slides of the stuff and study it in the pathology dept at my hospital. Although I'm a surgeon I have a graduate degree in microbial genetics. Fairly likely if it is a bacterial matt it will be fairly easy for our pathologists and myself to identify.