Extra CAlcium to use with 2 part???

[cthedaytrader]

I have a similar problem but not quite as extreme as you seem to have and my salinity has never been effected in any major way that a 5g water change every week or two hasnt managed.

My tank is 75G with a about 15g in water in the sump, with rock displacement I guess I have about 85G total water give or take.

I have a heavy packed SPS tank and dose about 160ml of each part a day. I try and keep my cal above 420 and my alk betwen 8.5 and 9.5.

I have had times when my cal didnt seem to keep up up with the alk, but not to the extreme you have, since the BRS 2 part should be balanced and it should be dialed in to maintain your demands.

What do you keep your alk at? From my understanding they should be balanced? Are you keeping your alk low or high becuase that in my expereince directly affects how much two part you are using and what your total ca will be?

Second are you manually dosing or are the pumps dosing? Are you sure the pumps are calibrated correctly and they are dosing the amounts you think.

Are you trying to adjust the two part mixtures such as adding extra to the calcium mix which in my expereince can throw off the balance.

Also, you should only use two part to maintain your levels not to raise them to the desired amount.

When my calcium is low I find it much easier(instead of using a ton of the CA portion of two part), I used Turbo calcium to raise my calcium to the desired level and adjust my pumps to what my tank is using. When I need to do that I check my usuage after 24 hours, and will usually do that for a couple of days. If it is dialed in then my alk and ca shouldnt drop off. Sometimes I have found I need to dose a little more Ca than ALk part to maintain a higher ca, but never as drastic as you seem to have, and I usally equate it to a mixing error or a slight diference in my dosing pumps.

[cthedaytrader]

I have a similar problem but not quite as extreme as you seem to have and my salinity has never been effected in any major way that a 5g water change every week or two hasnt managed.

My tank is 75G with a about 15g in water in the sump, with rock displacement I guess I have about 85G total water give or take.

I have a heavy packed SPS tank and dose about 160ml of each part a day. I try and keep my cal above 420 and my alk betwen 8.5 and 9.5.

I have had times when my cal didnt seem to keep up up with the alk, but not to the extreme you have, since the BRS 2 part should be balanced and it should be dialed in to maintain your demands.

What do you keep your alk at? From my understanding they should be balanced? Are you keeping your alk low or high becuase that in my expereince directly affects how much two part you are using and what your total ca will be?

Second are you manually dosing or are the pumps dosing? Are you sure the pumps are calibrated correctly and they are dosing the amounts you think.

Are you trying to adjust the two part mixtures such as adding extra to the calcium mix which in my expereince can throw off the balance.

Also, you should only use two part to maintain your levels not to raise them to the desired amount.

When my calcium is low I find it much easier(instead of using a ton of the CA portion of two part), I used Turbo calcium to raise my calcium to the desired level and adjust my pumps to what my tank is using. When I need to do that I check my usuage after 24 hours, and will usually do that for a couple of days. If it is dialed in then my alk and ca shouldnt drop off. Sometimes I have found I need to dose a little more Ca than ALk part to maintain a higher ca, but never as drastic as you seem to have, and I usally equate it to a mixing error or a slight diference in my dosing pumps.

[spawn2]

The pumps are dosing & were calibrated about 2 months ago & will redo again this WE. Alk is currently @ 10.4 on a hanna. The mix is mixed as labelled.
I had posted about using Kents turbo calcium on another forum & had intended to pick up this WE. Previously yes had been trying to correct using part A
I should add that the alk is rock steady.

[nanojg]

jerpa and cthedaytrader, what makes you think that the system should be in some sort of "balance" between alk and calc? While it is correct that calc and carb are used in a certain proportion the aquarium water does not have to have a certain "balance", as long as both are in the correct range and farily steady (more important for alk)

Also 2 part SHOULD be used for daily dosing AND ALSO for one time fixes, not sure why you state that they should not be used to raise levels to desired amounts? What do you think is in Turbo calcium? Why would that be different than the 2 part calcium?

[spawn2]

Originally Posted by jerpa

Calcium and alkalinity are used in a known proportion though. The only reason i know of to dose differing amounts is if your offsetting a salt that is very high in alk and low in calcium or vice versa. You stated that you also added 8oz manually that's why I was wondering about the dosing. If your corals absorbed that much calcium then they must have used a known amount of alkalinity as well. It sounds like your system may be unbalanced as opposed to actually consuming a huge amount of calcium without needing an equally large amount of alkalinity. You could switch to recipe 2 to offset the rise in PH from the limewater.

I dont think the corals used the extra Ca. I agree that something is likely out of balance, & have read the article about that on the reef alchemist. Tried to correct over the last 8 months to no avail. I'm using RBS for salt & when checked it tested out @
440 Ca
9.5 Alk
1350 Mg
I just did those tests with a brand new box, as I was using it to do a 30% WC. This issue has been the bain of my reef's existence for the last 8 months.

[spawn2]

Originally Posted by nanojg

jerpa and cthedaytrader, what makes you think that the system should be in some sort of "balance" between alk and calc? While it is correct that calc and carb are used in a certain proportion the aquarium water does not have to have a certain "balance", as long as both are in the correct range and farily steady (more important for alk)

Also 2 part SHOULD be used for daily dosing AND ALSO for one time fixes, not sure why you state that they should not be used to raise levels to desired amounts? What do you think is in Turbo calcium? Why would that be different than the 2 part calcium?

I have also heard of & read of lots of others who do not use 2 part in a balanced addition, with no issue's.

[jerpa]

My only point was if he consistently adds large amounts of calcium and sees little to no change something isn't right. I never implied a certain number but a balanced system should react predictably to increases in dosing. If all that calcium was being used by his corals he should notice his alk dropping unless he increases that as well. I may be confused but that is how I understand it. I agree 2 part is for one time corrections and dosing as well.

[nanojg]

Originally Posted by spawn2

I have also heard of & read of lots of others who do not use 2 part in a balanced addition, with no issue's.

I do not add equal amounts myself, I have to add about 1/3 more alk part than calcium part because I use a high calcium salt mix.

[jerpa]

I'm not sure what is going on but you might try adding limewater and stop dosing the 2 part for a few days and monitor your alk. Dose according to your alk drop with both parts and see if the calcium drops to a certain level and stays there. If your seeing problems in your corals with calcium at 360 this won't work but it might be worth a shot. I'm thinking if it's been doing this for 8 months a reset to your dosing regimen may be in order anyway.

[Habib]

If I understand it correctly, the calcium additions are a several fold of alkalinity additions.
That would imply that something is not OK.

I would do a calcium measurement on the tankwater before adding the usual large calcium addition then remeasure calcium again after say 10 minutes after the calcium addition.

The measured value should agree reasonably well with the addition. A large discrepancy might imply a problem with testing or with the actual concentration of the supplement.

No discrepancy would rule those out.

[spawn2]

Originally Posted by Habib

If I understand it correctly, the calcium additions are a several fold of alkalinity additions.
That would imply that something is not OK.

I would do a calcium measurement on the tankwater before adding the usual large calcium addition then remeasure calcium again after say 10 minutes after the calcium addition.

The measured value should agree reasonably well with the addition. A large discrepancy might imply a problem with testing or with the actual concentration of the supplement.

No discrepancy would rule those out.

1)The Ca supp is only being added @ about 28.5% as of last night more than the Alk.
2) I will try this step

[spawn2]

Originally Posted by jerpa

I'm not sure what is going on but you might try adding limewater and stop dosing the 2 part for a few days and monitor your alk. Dose according to your alk drop with both parts and see if the calcium drops to a certain level and stays there. If your seeing problems in your corals with calcium at 360 this won't work but it might be worth a shot. I'm thinking if it's been doing this for 8 months a reset to your dosing regimen may be in order anyway.

I have turned the doser off let run for a day & tested just before xmas, this was how I arrived at these rates. It went well for awhile Alk has been rock solid pretty much the whole time before & after, but then the Ca fell off about 1 month ago & here i go again. I know that corals can go through growth spurts where their consumption can vary... but this is crazy.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Water changes with a low calcium mix (or a high calcium mix) are the usual ways that nonequal dosing of a two part may become necessary.

An incorrect recipe is another.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by spawn2

Randy if this was your setup, how would you deal with this. Is adding kalk to the topoff a viable solution? Or would you maintain the use of 2 part at a higher daily dose rate & compensate by increasing the amount of water being re/re?

Limewater won't make much of a dent in what a tank like yours needs. I'd do it for pH purposes if the pH runs low, but otherwise I'd use a two part or a CaCO3/CO2 reactor (or both).

[spawn2]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Limewater won't make much of a dent in what a tank like yours needs. I'd do it for pH purposes if the pH runs low, but otherwise I'd use a two part or a CaCO3/CO2 reactor (or both).

Thx. I will continue over the next 24hrs to raise the ca to 420 & I will recalibrate the doser again sat morning. After I get it to 420 I will turn the doser off for 24 hrs, check consumption & then resume dosing to meet that need. Following that I will re/re tank water @ the suggested rate. should note the top-off res. is 5 gal, & takes 4-5 days to use. This will hopefully result in steady Ca value & maintain sal, but hasn't to date.

[cthedaytrader]

Originally Posted by nanojg

jerpa and cthedaytrader, what makes you think that the system should be in some sort of "balance" between alk and calc? While it is correct that calc and carb are used in a certain proportion the aquarium water does not have to have a certain "balance", as long as both are in the correct range and farily steady (more important for alk)

Also 2 part SHOULD be used for daily dosing AND ALSO for one time fixes, not sure why you state that they should not be used to raise levels to desired amounts? What do you think is in Turbo calcium? Why would that be different than the 2 part calcium?

I would leave the detailed descriptions to Randy. However, I have read most if not all of his articles over the years and thats usually what i am thinking about when I am dealing with my tank or offering advice.

The sticky in the forum has most of the articles, here are few that explain it far better then I ever could.

Calcium and Alkalinity

A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

A Homemade Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Additive System
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...l2004/chem.htm

Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

spawn I will try and post a pic of my tank as you requested as a reference in a little while.

btW I couldnt see the pics from the cpu I was on earlier but sweet tank!

[nanojg]

And where do those articles advocate a certain balance? Or that two part should NOT be used to make one time corrections to levels?

[LouH]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

How much are you adding each day?



I think you may be misunderstanding the process. The loss of calcium and alkalinity by reducing the salinity is very, very small.

If you are using my DIY two part, once you dose a full gallon of both parts, you'd remove 3.25 gallons of tank water to offset the salinity rise.

To gauge the lose due to that salinity correction, that 3.25 gallon correction contains only 3.8% of the calcium added and only 0.4% of the alkalinity added. Those proportions are probably about the same for all commercial two parts as well.

Randy, when I corresponded with you on this exact subject, I was using recipe 1 at the time. I've since switched to recipe 2. Is it not correct to reduce my tank water removal rate to 1.625 gallons:1 gallon of 2-part added considering that recipe 2 is half as potent as recipe 1?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that would be correct.

It is the percentage of calcium and alkalinity removed by the salinity corrections that are the same among all two parts, not the gallons that need to be removed. Maybe I was unclear.

[LouH]

No, you were clear. We were discussing Recipe 1. I just wanted to make sure I was managing this aspect of water chemistry correcctly after the recipe change.

Thanks Randy.

[jerpa]

Originally Posted by nanojg

And where do those articles advocate a certain balance? Or that two part should NOT be used to make one time corrections to levels?

They dont advocate a starting "balanced" number for alk and calcium. What they do advocate is adding 2 part in balanced doses to make up for coral consumption UNLESS you dose differing amounts to make up for a salt mix that has different levels than you keep your system at. Your right that as long as alkalinity and calcium are both within the acceptable ranges your tank will be fine. If you dose differing amounts for a prolonged period of time, and it's not due to your salt mix, you will drive whichever your dosing more of perpetually higher. I'm sorry I wasn't being clear.

And I agree you can use 2 part, or any other separate calcium and alk supplements, to correct your levels.

[spawn2]

So last night after adjusting up for almost 24 hrs & a 5 gall WC on/out of 55 GWV my Ca had risen to 400 & the sal had dropped to .027. The dose rate is 231ml per day. Just tested the Ca again 22 hrs later & it has fallen to 360. Both test values were achieved twice. According to the BRS calculator that is a drop of 225.1ml. ***!!! This is what I have been dealing with. IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE?

Randy what is your opinion on what is going on in my tank?

[spawn2]

I just tested
Mg 1400
Alk 9.1 <10.4 in 23 hrs.
I have no idea what is going on.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That calcium result is testing error of some sort. Calcium cannot fall from 400 ppm to 360 ppm in 22 hours. For that to happen, alkalinity would have to drop by 5.6 dKH.

Keep tracking it without adding anything for a few days.

Is the alk dropping from 10.4 to 9.1 dKH in 23 h? That is certainly possible. The calcium drop then should be on the order of 8 ppm.

Again, let's add nothing for another couple of days and track the drop.

[spawn2]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

That calcium result is testing error of some sort. Calcium cannot fall from 400 ppm to 360 ppm in 22 hours. For that to happen, alkalinity would have to drop by 5.6 dKH.

Keep tracking it without adding anything for a few days.

Is the alk dropping from 10.4 to 9.1 dKH in 23 h? That is certainly possible. The calcium drop then should be on the order of 8 ppm.

Again, let's add nothing for another couple of days and track the drop.

I'm starting to see a slight recession @ the bases of a couple acro's that was seen before & corrected by increasing the alk. I was running the alk lower @ 8. When I started having these issues with keeping up Ca, several months ago, I raised both. The slight recession stopped & growth @ the edges of the base came back & increased. I won't add anything further, but the prospect of turning off the doser, admittedly has me nervous. I don't want to have any harsh swings. I'll pick up another test kit on my way home from work this aft. Also will try & have a friend test comparatively.