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Old 10/20/2003, 08:23 PM   #51
KillerReef
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I'm sorry to say it, and I may be wrong, but no, she will not turn into male, once female, there is no going back. The best hope for your situation is that your "old" maroon is not yet female and the normal pairing will develop. (hopefully)

Otherwise, I believe they will probably fight until death. I personally would remove the new clown and follow Jhardman's info on pairing maroon clowns to a "T"...

HTH


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Old 10/20/2003, 08:30 PM   #52
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To : KillerReef

Got it !
Thanks for the clarification, although my old maroon is still yet pretty small, about 2 inches, but compare to the new maroon, her color is much darker, meaning she gotta be a she.

Will it be possible the new maroon will turn into a HE ?
But then again since the new one is bigger and a lot more dominant, I am guessing most likely that wont happen right ?

If that is the case, I will exchange the new one with a much smaller maroon if possible.

But for some reason, my old maroon was never aggresive and dominant, sometimes even the anemone crab would chase her out of the anemone, hahahaha, but by night time, they will sleep together.

Thanks again for all your great help !


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Old 10/20/2003, 08:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by jinnjia
I am sorry, have a quick question here.
Can the female (maroon) turn into male ?
I should have read this great tread before I purchased the new maroon.

What happen is this, I have a single maroon in the tank, from the reading I understand she must be a female, but the problem is the new maroon I just got, is a little bigger and seems to be more dominating, so judging from this, will my old maroon eventually change its sex to male ? of course this is if they can get along together.

Thank you thank you~
As Oama mentioned on the same question in the sexing clownfish thread. No, it is a one way trip.

How big are the two fish in question? If they are both big, you will likely not have a successful pairing. You should consider taking one back and using the separation technique outlined above for pairing maroons.


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Old 10/20/2003, 08:43 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by jinnjia
To : KillerReef

Got it !
Thanks for the clarification, although my old maroon is still yet pretty small, about 2 inches, but compare to the new maroon, her color is much darker, meaning she gotta be a she.

Will it be possible the new maroon will turn into a HE ?
But then again since the new one is bigger and a lot more dominant, I am guessing most likely that wont happen right ?

If that is the case, I will exchange the new one with a much smaller maroon if possible.

But for some reason, my old maroon was never aggresive and dominant, sometimes even the anemone crab would chase her out of the anemone, hahahaha, but by night time, they will sleep together.

Thanks again for all your great help !
It is almost unheard of to have a male maroon that is >2" so my guess is that both of your fish are female and will likely fight to the death.

You really need to have a female of about 3.5"+ to have an easy(ier) pairing with maroons. If the fish that intend to keep is only 2", you should consider growing her out to about 3.5" before trying a pairing.


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Old 10/20/2003, 10:31 PM   #55
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Got it !!!
I think I will return the new maroon at earliest.

And now I am just wondering, and not sure if that this is common and true, notice most maroon which LFS carry, are always kept singly along in those dividers, I am guessing because maroons are much more aggressive compare to other clowns.

So now here is the question, if they were already kept single before I purchased them, meaning they should already turn into female ? and unlike other clowns, for some reason most maroons I seen from the LFS are already pretty big, so does it mean it may be pretty tough of find a sexless/male maroon from the LFS ?

To provide more detail, my old maroon is about 1 & 3/4 inch big, shy, had it for more than 6 month. The new maroon is about 2 inches big, brighter than than my old one, a lot more aggresive and dominant. I seen the new one chase the old one, but never really got into mouth biting.

Old one was already hosting a bulb anemone, and the new one seems to like the new anmoney I just got too.

Thanks always !!
:~)


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Old 10/21/2003, 12:38 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by jinnjia
Got it !!!
I think I will return the new maroon at earliest.

And now I am just wondering, and not sure if that this is common and true, notice most maroon which LFS carry, are always kept singly along in those dividers, I am guessing because maroons are much more aggressive compare to other clowns.

So now here is the question, if they were already kept single before I purchased them, meaning they should already turn into female ? and unlike other clowns, for some reason most maroons I seen from the LFS are already pretty big, so does it mean it may be pretty tough of find a sexless/male maroon from the LFS ?

To provide more detail, my old maroon is about 1 & 3/4 inch big, shy, had it for more than 6 month. The new maroon is about 2 inches big, brighter than than my old one, a lot more aggresive and dominant. I seen the new one chase the old one, but never really got into mouth biting.

Old one was already hosting a bulb anemone, and the new one seems to like the new anmoney I just got too.

Thanks always !!
:~)
It is not common to keep juvenile CB maroons separated, however it is common to keep WC this way. I would recommend you get CB fish. With WC, you risk disease, parasites, poor acclimation, etc, etc and for pairing you have no idea of the fish's age.

Grow your current fish out to at least 3.5" and then find a CB juvenile that is about 3/4".

HTH


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Old 10/26/2003, 01:29 AM   #57
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Hi, got 1 maroon and 2 clarckiis in the tank (and lots of questions)themaroon was the oldest one in the tank, i once found a small mate for her and she accceptes him rather easily using the separation technique, he got accepted only one day after introduction and was llowed to her sleeping place. after that the male got ich from a newlyintroduced fish and died in the Q tank with 2 other fish. i couldn't find a mate for her for 5-6 months so i got 2 small clarckis and introduced them to the tank with she in and she beated them for a week that they spent behind a powerhead fighting among themselves to place each other in front of her. after that they managed to get one part of the tank and a few months later dominated the maroon that was beaten, torned fins dominated to teh point where it stopped feeding....so i removed it to the Q tank. took a few months to recover and fatten up by that time i got a bubble tip for the clarcki and got 2 green crpets and a blue one from a friendtearingup his tank. so i thought that as now the clarcki had their own limited territory in the bta may be the maroon can be introduced i put him in. she recieved mino beating and ended taking a territory for her. then she hosted in the 2 green adn blue carpets that were at the edge of the tank. a little far from the bta but however they faced each other a few times a day and ended by limitting the territory. a few months after that the maroon is getting a bit more evil and even chases my big semicirculatus away from his anemones more aggressively than the clarcki pair do. also it took over the bta and seems to prefer it mostthan his carpets. the clarcki were chased of to the green carpet on the other edge of the tank and it's now piece as every one sticks to their territory that are well defended.
now my questions are:
the clarcki i got were at the smae size and smaller than an inch. now they are near 2 -2.5 inch and they haven't spawned yet. one of them showed clear dominance and was growing clearly bigger than the other for a year may be but now the smaller one has grown and they are the same size. is it necesary to have size difference always in the pair or will it resolve as both grow at the end? they sleep in the sam anemone and lately have been doing a strange thing they put their mouth on the rock near the anemone and always at 2 definit locations and they start swimming against the rock as if they are cleaning it, does that indicate anything to come? no fighting however one of them seems to show the other who's the boss from time to time but I never saw that locking mouth position you talke about previously.
do you thinkn it's apair and i should just wait for them to spawn?
Now my biggest issue lies in that i would like to have a mate for the maroon clown and here are my question:
should i quarantine the nwe addition for 4 weeks before addition to the tank or will it turn into a female if left that long in the Q tank?
i know i should get the smallest maroon i can find so if it's so small will it change sex if alone ow should it still be old enough to be able to change sex?
what also worries me as they are put in separate tanks at the lfs but i could always show aup at the day they recieve fish hoping that they are kept together prior to being shipped to us.
also if i get a really small one do you think it'l stand a chance in front of the clarcki pair?
Sorry lots of question but i wold really appreciate your help as i wouldn't want to risk fish if there is no acceptable chance that it could work


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Old 10/26/2003, 01:14 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by maroun.c
should i quarantine the nwe addition for 4 weeks before addition to the tank or will it turn into a female if left that long in the Q tank?
I always recommend QT'ing new fish for 4-6 weeks.

Quote:
Originally posted by maroun.c
i know i should get the smallest maroon i can find so if it's so small will it change sex if alone ow should it still be old enough to be able to change sex?
If you buy a CB fish that is 3/4" to 1 1/2" it will still be a juvenile that is too young to change sex.

Quote:
Originally posted by maroun.c
what also worries me as they are put in separate tanks at the lfs but i could always show aup at the day they recieve fish hoping that they are kept together prior to being shipped to us.
The only time I see LFS keep maroons separate is if they are selling WC stock… Buy CB (captive bred) fish and you will not have a worry. If you are buying WC (wild caught) fish, that little 1 ½” maroon could be 20 years old and wipe a sex change fast…

Quote:
Originally posted by maroun.c
also if i get a really small one do you think it'l stand a chance in front of the clarcki pair?
Read this... http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...mixing+species

Quote:
Originally posted by maroun.c
Sorry lots of question but i wold really appreciate your help as i wouldn't want to risk fish if there is no acceptable chance that it could work
From the sounds of it, you are already seeing the fighting between the maroon female and the A. clarkii pair turn for the worse. Frankly it is unlikely that you will be able to keep both pairs in the same tank.

And no the digging is not related to spawning per say, even though some of the old reference books say that it is. Prespawning behavior is for both fish to vigorously “clean” their nest site by biting it. At 2 ½” your pair is likely too young to spawn. A mature spawning A. clarkii female will generally be 3” to 4.5”.


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Old 11/01/2003, 09:56 PM   #59
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A few questions for JHardman

First of all, thank you for all the fascinating information, JHardman. I appreciate that you have taken the time to share your knowledge with us. Second of all, I apologize if you have answered these questions before. I only ask them because I have not seen the answers to them in any of your stickeyed threads or their links.

Q#1: I have a Tomato clown approx. 2-2.5 in. long. I have had her(?) for about a month now, and I have seen her change to a much darker hue in the short time that I have had her. If I introduce a much smaller, asexual Tomato clown what are the chances that she will kill it/him? Is it ideal to put a devider in the tank for a certain period of time?

Q#2: Is their an ideal temperature to stimulate breeding for clowns? I have bred freshwater cichlids before, and when I did this I raised the temp. from 78 to 88-90 to stimulate the breeding process. Currently the temp. in my marine tank is 74-75.

Q3#: Is their an ideal salinity level for breeding clowns? Right now I am at about 21.

Q#4: I have a hermit crab in my tank. Would it be possible for him to consume a large portion of the eggs in the eventually of the mating process taking place? I wouldn't remove him if he only ate a few/or none, but I wouldn't want to see him kill all of them.

Q#5: Is their an ideal diet for breeding clownfish in terms of the quantity/quality? Right now I feed my fish once a day, Formula 1, and Formula 2, respectively every other day.

Thank you for your time.

-Andrew


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Last edited by Anguila; 11/01/2003 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 11/01/2003, 10:28 PM   #60
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Re: A few questions for JHardman

Quote:
Originally posted by Anguila
First of all, thank you for all the fascinating information, JHardman. I appreciate that you have taken the time to share your knowledge with us. Second of all, I apologize if you have answered these questions before. I only ask them because I have not seen the answers to them in any of your stickeyed threads or their links.

Q#1: I have a Tomato clown approx. 2-2.5 in. long. I have had her(?) for about a month now, and I have seen her change to a much darker hue in the short time that I have had her. If I introduce a much smaller, asexual Tomato clown what are the chances that she will kill it/him? Is it ideal to put a devider in the tank for a certain period of time?

Q#2: Is their an ideal temperature to stimulate breeding for clowns? I have bred freshwater cichlids before, and when I did this I raised the temp. from 78 to 88-90 to stimulate the breeding process. Right now the temp. in my marine tank is 74-75.

Q3#: Is their an ideal salinity level for breeding clowns? Right now I am at about 21.

Q#4: I have a hermit crab in my tank. Would it be possible for him to consume a large portion of the fry in the eventually of the mating process taking place? I wouldn't remove him if he only ate a few/or none, but I wouldn't want to see him kill all of them.


Thank you for your time.

-Andrew
Hi and welcome to RC!

#1, At that size, it is more likely that your fish is female. And yes adding a sexless juvenile from a community tank would be the way to go. A. frenatus can be nearly as hard to pair as maroons and you might have to take a separation approach to the pairing if the your female is really nasty. But you should be able to get by with a grow out technique.

2-4 are a off topic to this post, so I will keep my answers short and direct you to more information.

#2, Tropical species like your A. frenatus will do best for spawning at between 80°F and about 84°F.

#3, Salinity should be close to the salinity of there range in high summer, for most species this is SG 1.025 to SG 1.027

#4, You would not leave the nest in the tank to hatch, as the larva would become zooplankton for anything in the tank.

Myself and Dr. Marini wrote an couple of articles for http://www.advancedaquarist.com that will start to run in this months issues. You will find much more detailed information in these articles, especially in relation to #2-#4.


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Old 11/02/2003, 11:55 AM   #61
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Thank you for the response.

Regarding off topic questions such as clown diet would it be best to start a new thread on the particular subject?


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Old 11/02/2003, 12:57 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anguila
Thank you for the response.

Regarding off topic questions such as clown diet would it be best to start a new thread on the particular subject?
Yes. Posts like this that are more or less part of the clownfish FAQ should stay on topic (pairing clownfish for this one).


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Old 11/02/2003, 02:55 PM   #63
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If their is a detailed thread regarding the removal of the nest into another tank (and the diet for the fry) could you link it to me, please.


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Old 11/02/2003, 04:34 PM   #64
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Hey Anguila. How's about an article that does a quick review of those topics? Scoll way down in the article to the section on Captive Breeding.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/hcs3/index.htm

HTH


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Old 11/02/2003, 07:34 PM   #65
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Thanks, Skipper.


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Old 11/04/2003, 11:32 PM   #66
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Post

New information...

Today I got a new pair of SI black A. percula. They are in the QT tank right now. And I have seen something that up until today I thought was a maroon exclusive behavior...

The male when gently "nosed" by the female will turn and kiss the cheeks of the female, just like a maroon pair.

So I guess I need to add that in some pairs, but it is unusual, submissive males will kiss the cheeks of their females, just like maroons do.


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Old 11/05/2003, 02:43 PM   #67
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Very good thread, very informative. I had no idea of the complexities of sex with clowns. I will now be able to make a more informed purchase when I buy my first pair.


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Old 11/05/2003, 08:21 PM   #68
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Daily journal

Day one: complete success. Introduce new 3/4" to 1" juvie A. Frenatus in with the dominant female. From what I saw (and I could have missed something) the female iniciates the quivering movement, and after a rough hour or two they are now friends, and swim around together.

Day two: the female starts digging a big nest area taking out one whole side of my tank almost!

Day three: Nothing exceptionally exciting today. All adjustments have been made: temp. raised, the get fed three times a day til saturation, salinity level slightly raised, etc.



I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid question, but roughly how long til they start making babies?


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Old 11/08/2003, 12:03 AM   #69
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John thats pretty incredible. I have seen a submissive behavior much like the "kiss" but never exactly how I observe with the Maroons .

I'm really fascinated by the different complex's behavior patterns. Some of the same trademark behaviors seem to show up in the TR clowns as well.

If you get a chance update me on the MCC's and your hybridization efforts, [I know you've got to be tinkering with something new] My Leuco [Mrs Marine Depot banner] has tolerated a Sandarcinos juve for the last two Months. I'm hopeful for them.

Take Care -----------Kris


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Old 11/14/2003, 02:14 PM   #70
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About a week ago, I moved my anemone and maroon clown to a separate 10gallon tank that is plumbed to the rest of my system. The anemone was being a pest... Since I now had a separate home for my clown (3.5" - 4" long), I thought it was time to pair her with a buddy. I bought a 1.5" male (or what I perceived to be a male) to see if they would get along. For about an hour, the female kind of asserted her womanly authority, and every so often, the little guy would start to convulse like he was having a seizure or as though she ripped off his fins or something. I guess that means he was just indicating his submissiveness to her.

That first night, they were sleeping together in the anemone.... Now they're just the best of friends.

An interesting thing also happened. My maroons are yellow striped maroons. I wasn't sure my female was a yellow-striped at first because her stripes were so faint, they just looked white. Now, they are getting more orange/yellow. Has anyone ever noticed this before? Is it normal?

Is there any indication I should be looking for that they will begin spawning? And how long does it take (best case scenario) before a newly paired fish will start to lay eggs?


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Old 11/14/2003, 02:55 PM   #71
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cool thread....will have to keep this one....


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Old 11/14/2003, 03:25 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by algaefree
About a week ago, I moved my anemone and maroon clown to a separate 10gallon tank that is plumbed to the rest of my system. The anemone was being a pest... Since I now had a separate home for my clown (3.5" - 4" long), I thought it was time to pair her with a buddy. I bought a 1.5" male (or what I perceived to be a male) to see if they would get along. For about an hour, the female kind of asserted her womanly authority, and every so often, the little guy would start to convulse like he was having a seizure or as though she ripped off his fins or something. I guess that means he was just indicating his submissiveness to her.

That first night, they were sleeping together in the anemone.... Now they're just the best of friends.

An interesting thing also happened. My maroons are yellow striped maroons. I wasn't sure my female was a yellow-striped at first because her stripes were so faint, they just looked white. Now, they are getting more orange/yellow. Has anyone ever noticed this before? Is it normal?

Is there any indication I should be looking for that they will begin spawning? And how long does it take (best case scenario) before a newly paired fish will start to lay eggs?
Congrats! Pairing maroons can be tough, glad it went smoothly for you.

I would not expect a spawn for a newly paired, pair for 12-24 months.

Classic pre-spawning behavior is for both fish, together to vigorously clean a nesting site near their sleeping place, by biting it. The cleaning can go on for quite a while before a nest is laid, especially a first nest.


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Old 11/14/2003, 06:40 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by JHardman
Congrats! Pairing maroons can be tough, glad it went smoothly for you.

I would not expect a spawn for a newly paired, pair for 12-24 months.

Classic pre-spawning behavior is for both fish, together to vigorously clean a nesting site near their sleeping place, by biting it. The cleaning can go on for quite a while before a nest is laid, especially a first nest.
Is that for all clowns or does it vary depending on the species?


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Old 11/14/2003, 06:45 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anguila
Is that for all clowns or does it vary depending on the species?
All.


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Old 11/15/2003, 04:17 PM   #75
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Oh man, I now have to go through this process. It seems that the big female went carpet surfing. How on earth she fit through a 2 inch gap in the back of the tank I don't know.

I have, sorry had 2 false perc's and I think they were just becoming mature. The one left is pretty beat up, should I wait until he become's the dominant female and introduce a smaller one or should I go out and get a new smaller one now even though he has already been fighting?

He is in the tank with two pajama cardinals and no host.

Tony


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