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Old 11/26/2003, 07:18 AM   #101
ezhoops
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I'll answer this one, Simply NO
once a clown changes into a female they cannot change back. A male can turn into a female if the need should occur. But once they turn into a she they cannot turn back. Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back. JHardman wrote a bit about this subject, The thread was called sexing clownfish. I would recommend reading J wilkerson's book on clownfish.


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Old 11/26/2003, 11:20 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by ezhoops
Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back.
Would you care to sight your references for this?


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Old 11/28/2003, 12:36 PM   #103
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Smile

JHardman quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ezhoops
Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you care to sight your references for this?


John,
here is my references

JHARDMAN wrote on 7/15/2003 (thread titled Sexing clownfish)

"Q: What is the nature of clownfish in terms of gender?

A: Clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites. Clownfish are hatched sexually immature or in other words sexless, neither male or female. This in the simplest of terms means that they change sex from sexless to male to female. This is a one way trip; sexless to male never to be sexless again and male to female never to male again. They may spend their entire life as a sexually immature fish depending on their environment."

"Examples of Clownfishes sex change.

A single clownfish kept by it's self:
if a single clownfish is kept by it's self it will become a female clownfish."

Another source

"Once a clownfish becomes male, it cannot return to being an adolescent again. Further, if the clownfishes's social surrounding lacks a female, the hormonal balance then changes in the male......This hormonal shift causes the male fish to grow more and become more aggressive, and he soon develops ovaries and becomes a functioning female. Once a clownfish becomes a female, she is permanently female and can never again be a functioning male......this entire conversion in gender can be completed in a month or less. This sequential sexuality is called Protandrous (Prot=first;androus=male) hermaphroditism."
Joyce D. Wilkerson "Clownfishes p.134"

Eric


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Old 11/28/2003, 01:21 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by ezhoops
JHardman quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ezhoops
Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you care to sight your references for this?


John,
here is my references
<--Snip-->
Eric
The reason I asked for the references was I have never seen anything that said "usually (not always 100%)". As fas as I know is this a 100% of the time thing.


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Old 11/28/2003, 03:00 PM   #105
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Oh, sorry (that was me being unsure of it) I was kind of wondering if you might have forgotten what YOU had wrote. Simple misunderstanding. BTW thats for the quick response regarding the GSM's they are doing OK so far.


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Old 12/01/2003, 10:18 AM   #106
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regarding my GSM with WSM. They have coexisted for the past 4 days. The male has some minor fin tears but the worst is over. Are they entirely safe together now or is it still possible she could kill him? Also, will they slowly couple up?
Last question, I remember reading that males are typically brightly colored, this male WSM is very chocolate colored, is it possible that I could have a small female in thier (again he is a WC) but has very dark coloring. Would my GSM allow a female into territory? (she is a very laid back GSM.)
Thanks, for all you advice


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Old 12/01/2003, 11:35 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by ezhoops
regarding my GSM with WSM. They have coexisted for the past 4 days. The male has some minor fin tears but the worst is over. Are they entirely safe together now or is it still possible she could kill him? Also, will they slowly couple up?
The key is behavior that shows that a dominate/submissive relationship is forming/formed. If you are not seeing it, then no it is not safe. If you are seeing it, then chances are pretty good that they will be fine.

Quote:
Originally posted by ezhoops
Last question, I remember reading that males are typically brightly colored, this male WSM is very chocolate colored, is it possible that I could have a small female in thier (again he is a WC) but has very dark coloring. Would my GSM allow a female into territory? (she is a very laid back GSM.)
Thanks, for all you advice
Coloring is not a good idicator of sex in clownfish. Read the sexing clownfish post that is linked in this post.

It is possible, but extermely unlikely that you have two females. You would see jaw locking at a minimum if you did.


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Old 12/01/2003, 11:43 AM   #108
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Well, they had a minor very quick jaw thing going for a milli-second when he was first released into the tank.

he is very submissive, not shivering though, but just stays in the corner top of the tank and will sometimes swim near her for a second and then she chases him (no bites, just chases) to his corner, he is eating ,not well , but eating.

I hope things will progress, and what is the typical time period for the female to totally accept him (I realize all clowns are different but what is average)


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Old 12/01/2003, 11:56 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by ezhoops
Well, they had a minor very quick jaw thing going for a milli-second when he was first released into the tank.

he is very submissive, not shivering though, but just stays in the corner top of the tank and will sometimes swim near her for a second and then she chases him (no bites, just chases) to his corner, he is eating ,not well , but eating.

I hope things will progress, and what is the typical time period for the female to totally accept him (I realize all clowns are different but what is average)
If he is not quivering (reread the section on submissive behavior) he is not being submissive. If this is indeed the case, no you do not have a pair formed and the smaller fish is at risk.


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Old 12/01/2003, 12:50 PM   #110
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I will have to sit down and watch them again for a while but I did not see any quivering. he did when he was first released in to the tank and even in specimen container, but now I haven't seen him quivering in a while.

I'll keep my fingers crossed


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Old 12/01/2003, 10:36 PM   #111
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Has anybody ever had success with buying two small GBM clowns? and if no why wouldn't work.


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Old 12/01/2003, 10:41 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by leviwin
Has anybody ever had success with buying two small GBM clowns? and if no why wouldn't work.
I assume you mean gold stripe maroons...

From the initial post...

Quote:
Originally posted by leviwin
Paring Premnas species clownfish (maroon clownfish):
Pairing maroon clowns is much more problematic than pairing Amphiprion species clownfish. Maroons are notorious for being very aggressive towards other clownfish. They are pretty much fearless and will only back down from an all out fight when presented with the overwhelming threat of death.

Separation Technique:
The only technique I am aware of that works the vast majority of the time with the least amount of damage as possible to use a separation and slow acclimation process to introduce a poetical mate to a maroon clownfish.

First you need to have a large female already established in your tank before trying a pairing. The clownfish should be at least 3” from nose to start of the cardinal fin. Next you will need to do a little preparation before buying a potential mate for your maroon. You need something to securely separate the two fish in the same tank while still allowing the fish to see each other and the new fish to get water flow. You can use a clear plastic specimen container with holes drilled in it for example.

Now go to the LFS and find the smallest juvenile maroon from a community tank that you can find. It should be no larger than 1” nose to start of cardinal fin. Acclimate the new maroon just as you would any other fish. Once the new maroon is acclimated to your tanks water, place the new maroon in the specimen container. Let the two fish see each other, place the specimen container near the females territory. Carefully watch the female’s behavior. If she is trying to attack the new fish thru the container, it is not safe to release the new maroon. Give her time to cool off from the disruption to her tank and addition of a foreign clownfish in her tank.

Now that the female has cooled her temper it is time to try an introduction. Get your favorite fish net ready and release the new maroon to the tank. If the fighting gets too bad you will need to rescue the new maroon and place it back in the container and try the next day. If after three failed attempts you can write off the new maroon as incompatible and you will need a new juvenile to try with.



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Old 12/02/2003, 10:50 AM   #113
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IMO it is important to add that you may want to let the male (in the specimen container) stay inside the container for a day or two before actually releasing him. It took mine female 5 days before she allowed him to be released into the tank and will still occasionally give him a little beating.


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Old 12/02/2003, 04:33 PM   #114
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Hey... I was just wondering why you said that you should not attempt the grow out technique for pairing maroon clowns? Im still in research mode, as I will not be able to set up my first marine tank until fall of 2004... I would like to have some clowns and anenomes in the tank. It will be a 35 gallon with a 20 gallon sump (most likely) as I have both of these tanks that arent in use. Would a 35 (3'*1'*18"tall) be too small to keep a pair of maroons?


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Old 12/02/2003, 05:55 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timbor
Hey... I was just wondering why you said that you should not attempt the grow out technique for pairing maroon clowns? Im still in research mode, as I will not be able to set up my first marine tank until fall of 2004... I would like to have some clowns and anenomes in the tank. It will be a 35 gallon with a 20 gallon sump (most likely) as I have both of these tanks that arent in use. Would a 35 (3'*1'*18"tall) be too small to keep a pair of maroons?
Look up two posts from yours, or in the initial post...

A 30g would be fine for a pair of maroons as long as your filtration is setup to handle the bio load, which if you use a typical reef style tank with lots of LR and LS, it will be fine.


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Old 12/02/2003, 11:39 PM   #116
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have you ever had anybody try the grow out technique with gsm clowns. my friend recently bought two small gsm clown and they seem to be doing fine. I was just wondering if they would end up killing each other in the near future. By they way they have been in the same tank for about two months now.


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Old 12/03/2003, 12:04 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by leviwin
have you ever had anybody try the grow out technique with gsm clowns. my friend recently bought two small gsm clown and they seem to be doing fine. I was just wondering if they would end up killing each other in the near future. By they way they have been in the same tank for about two months now.
It is not unheard of, in fact I have a spawning pair that was paired that way by a fellow reefer that didn't know any better when she bought them.

The odds are against success and may result in damaged fish even if they do eventually pair bond.

Again for example the female of that pair I mentioned has two holes in her dorsal fin and the male has a funky mouth from hitting something hard like rocks or glass. Even to this day the female is VERY rough on him, especially at spawning time. I feel sorry for the guy, he gets the **** beat out of him every two weeks. And to top that off, she will not let him out of nest tending to eat.


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Old 12/03/2003, 12:17 AM   #118
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thanks for the info


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Old 12/04/2003, 12:55 PM   #119
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Tomato Clowns

JHardman
Well done with this very informitive thread i have a few questions in regard to pairing Tomato clowns. I had a pair of Amphiprion rubrocinctus one was about a inch and a half and the other was a tad longer then 2 inches the larger fish was heavily built and i presumed female. i have them in a 180 gallon reef tank that has good water quality and lots of quadricolor anenomes i collected them as a pair and they hit it off straight away sharing there anenomes and fanning my dsb on occasions they have been in the system for almost a year without any eggs laid. I became impatient after having been culturing phyto and rots for around 6 months so i did the unthinkable i added 6 more fish to the system 5 where smaller then my male but one was a brute around 3 and a half inches. I was amazed at how the fish sorted all there probs out in 24 hours all the small fish have taken residence up at the other end off the tank and the 2 larger fish had taken over the majority off the anenomes on the other end of the tank. So what happened to the previous pair well the larger fish which i thought was female has paired up with the godzilla tomatoe they share there anenomes and i have seen them kissing and chomping on the rocks within 2 weeks off introduction . So the origanal male hasnt given up so easy the poor fellow has been knocked about a bit but refuses to surrender and leave that end off the tank he is constantly harrased but just simply refuses to leave. Ime going to remove him asap but was hoping that they would sort it out so ime askin what behavior is this when the 2 largest fish are pairing up
is it normal for 2 females to do this if they are females. Or could my previous bigger fish been male all along i have no idea some very strange behaviour indeed.
Thanks JHardman


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Old 12/04/2003, 01:15 PM   #120
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Re: Tomato Clowns

Quote:
Originally posted by miareefer
So what happened to the previous pair well the larger fish which i thought was female has paired up with the godzilla tomatoe they share there anenomes and i have seen them kissing and chomping on the rocks within 2 weeks off introduction . So the origanal male hasnt given up so easy the poor fellow has been knocked about a bit but refuses to surrender and leave that end off the tank he is constantly harrased but just simply refuses to leave. Ime going to remove him asap but was hoping that they would sort it out so ime askin what behavior is this when the 2 largest fish are pairing up
is it normal for 2 females to do this if they are females. Or could my previous bigger fish been male all along i have no idea some very strange behaviour indeed.
Thanks JHardman
The "kissing" you are referring to I assume is jaw locking a classic indicator of two females. It is not unheard of for two female to "pair up" and actually produce infertile nests, rare but not unheard of. Dr Hoff documents a case like this in his book on breeding. It sounds like your male is trying to service both females, again something that is not unheard of.


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Old 12/05/2003, 11:47 AM   #121
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is it possible for a GSM & WSM to coexist in the same tank without ever pairing up? my female GSM is still bothering my WSM, its getting better but still only allows him in the top corners of the tank. Will she ever give in or will this behavior continue out for the rest of their days, or am I just a little impatient?
Thanks


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Old 12/05/2003, 03:27 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by ezhoops
is it possible for a GSM & WSM to coexist in the same tank without ever pairing up? my female GSM is still bothering my WSM, its getting better but still only allows him in the top corners of the tank. Will she ever give in or will this behavior continue out for the rest of their days, or am I just a little impatient?
Thanks
Considering how long you have been at this, I would say the female has rejected your choice of a mate for her. I would try with another very small CB juvenile from a community tank.


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Old 12/05/2003, 05:10 PM   #123
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Just wondering why my tomatoe clown prefers sleeping next to the water return rather than in the BTA? Actually it never even goes in the BTA, and not just this one, I got this one to replace (traded out) the first one that the clown would not go in.


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Old 12/05/2003, 10:20 PM   #124
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JHardman,
it has been exactly 9 days since they have been in the same tank together. What do ya think? give up or wait a little longer?


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Old 12/05/2003, 10:21 PM   #125
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Also, I have not seen the male quiver once, I guess I am just not willing to give up. But perhaps I should.


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