Advanced sunrise/set progr with AI Sol

[Guillaume]

Hi All,

I'm buidling the program for my new AI Sol. My intention is to use the seasonal changes of sunset/rise as I was doing with my MH+PC+moonLED combo. You see me coming I guess...

I want to create 3 day periods: sunrise, day, sunset following the change in light period from the Apex. It has been done with 3 virtual outlets with the "If Sun" command.

Basicaly, I did an exercice based on three times references in the year to see what happened (Dec 1st, March 25, July 1st). The overall day (some or all lights opened) period is based on my current setup with MH+PC. In brief, the PC actinic currently goes on about 90 minutes before and after MH. MH goes ON a bit before 10:00am these days.

Then, I made the program in the three LED outlets, starting with the Day outlet, running like a background condition, ramps being the main conditions.

(I also made three ramp profile (Sunrise, day, sunset), one for each LED light since I want the white to come later and go faster. This detail is not important here.)

Now, as you can see, my problem is with the sunset part. The trigger time to start sunset happen to be the beginning of the day, not the end, so it runs opposite to what it should (starting sunset earlier in july instead of later).

Anyone has ideas to 1) maybe simplify the programs but mainly 2) pass over the sunset barrier??? Fixed time is the very last option to me.

Here it is:

Apex References used:
Dec 1st Apex Sun rise/set : 07:17/18:38
March 25 Apex Sun rise/set : 07:11/19:20
Jul 1st Apex Sun rise/set : 06:43/19:41
________________________

Outlets:

Virtual Outlet Sunrise

Set OFF
If Sun 075/-560 Then ON
This happen to be:
Dec 1st = 8:32 / 9:18 --- worst scenario looked at
March 25 = 8:26 / 10:00
Jul 1st = 7:58 / 10:21

Virtual Outlet Day

Set OFF
If Sun 164/-010 Then ON
Dec 1st = 10:02 / 18:28
March 25 = 09:55 / 19:10
Jul 1st = 9:28 / 19:31 --- would be the model for all months (this line could just be a fixed time covering all gaps: If time 07:59 to 21:10 then ON)

Virtual Outlet Sunset

Set OFF
If Sun 719/090 Then ON
Dec 1st = 19:16 / 20:08
March 25 = 19:10 / 20:50
Jul 1st = 18:42 / 21:11 ---? All the starting time that trigger the ON status are opposite to what we need. How to use the second time (end of day) as the trigger to Sunset ON ?
_____________________
BlueLED

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet Day = ON then BlueDay
If Outlet Sunrise = ON then BlueUp
If Outlet Sunset = ON then BlueDwn
If Temp > 82.0 Then OFF
Min Time 001:00 Then OFF
If Outlet Weather = ON Then Storm

WhiteLED

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet Day = ON then WhiteDay
If Outlet Sunrise = ON DEFER 030:00 then WhiteUp
If Outlet Sunset = ON then WhiteDwn
If Temp > 82.0 Then OFF
Min Time 001:00 Then OFF
If Outlet Weather = ON Then Storm

RoyalLED

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Moon 040/-080 Then MoonLt
If Outlet Day = ON then RoyalDay
If Outlet Sunrise = ON then RoyalUp
If Outlet Sunset = ON then RoyalDwn
If Temp > 82.0 Then OFF
Min Time 001:00 Then OFF
If Outlet Weather = ON Then Storm
______________________________
Profiles:

WhiteUp
Ramp time (minutes) 60
Start intensity 0
End intensity 50

BlueUp
Ramp time (minutes) 90
Start intensity 0
End intensity 50

RoyalUp
Ramp time (minutes) 90
Start intensity 0
End intensity 50


WhiteDwn
Ramp time (minutes) 60
Start intensity 50
End intensity 0

BlueDwn
Ramp time (minutes) 90
Start intensity 50
End intensity 0

RoyalDwn
Ramp time (minutes) 90
Start intensity 50
End intensity 0


WhiteDay
Ramp time (minutes) 0
Start intensity 50
End intensity 50

BlueDay
Ramp time (minutes) 0
Start intensity 50
End intensity 50

RoyalDay
Ramp time (minutes) 0
Start intensity 50
End intensity 50

[Guillaume]

Playing alone, here is another try for the Sunset virtual outlet, twisting it the other side:

Set ON
If Sun -1350/000 Then OFF
(date = Sunset OFF time / sunset ON time)
Dec 1st = 20:46 / 18:38
March 25 = 20:40 / 19:20
Jul 1st = 20:13 / 19:41
Off time has no consequence since ramp dictate the real off time: 90 later ON time, 60 later for the white LED.
Except in case of Storm that would end during the Sunset period, right? The issue is that a Storm that would end between 19:41 and 20:13 in early July would make closing the light earlier that that scheduled (21:11).
Same for a Storm that would end within the sunset period would make to restart ramp time. Right?

[Guillaume]

Anyone to tell me if I'm out in left field?

[Zoilus]

Following...

Just got everything else set up and working with my Apex except for my 4 AI SOL fixtures. Investigating the best way to configure them.

[RussM]

When you use the If Sun command, the Apex will automatically do a reverse ramp at the end of the day.

Set OFF
If Sun 000/000 Then PFx

is all you really need. Use different time offsets in the If Sun command as to have each color channel ramp up and ramp down as desired.

[Zoilus]

So instead of the way the AI control does it where you have each timer control what intensity each of the three LED's should be and the ramp time, with the Apex you can change the intensity of each color individually as in three "If Sun..." commands. Then the profiles you set up control the ramp time and intensity.

Sorry to hash this out as I know its been done hundreds of times but I understand the coding as I am a systems engineer with a programming background but it becomes much easier to conceptualize when you first understand the command flow.

The lights are the main thing I want to get correct the first time (at least as close as possible to what is working for me with the AI controller). The rest of my pumps and other devices are working great with the simple coding I have been able to learn from the unofficial manual and here on ReefCentral. Once my lights are squared away I can configure my ATO and dosing pumps and go back and code in the redundancy and failure contingencies per the great sticky at the top of this forum.

Sorry - I don't want to hijack your thread Guillaume

[Guillaume]

Originally Posted by RussM

When you use the If Sun command, the Apex will automatically do a reverse ramp at the end of the day.

Set OFF
If Sun 000/000 Then PFx

is all you really need. Use different time offsets in the If Sun command as to have each color channel ramp up and ramp down as desired.

Ok, thanks Kurt,

Not sure to understand how PFx works though (I looked in the unofficial and official guide, searched this forum).
Should I understand that I don't need any Sunrise/set virtual outlet ?

Then, how do I make the outlet point to the proper ramp profile?
Let's try with the Blue outlet:

BlueLED:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 075/090 Then PFx ---> how to direct it to Blue ramp profile?
If Temp > 82.0 Then OFF
Min Time 001:00 Then OFF
If Outlet Weather = ON Then Storm

Profile:

BlueUp: (would be renamed Blue since it will reverse at the end of the day)

Ramp time (minutes) 90
Start intensity 0
End intensity 50


THANKS!

No problem Zoilus, this forum is made to learn all together

[itchyf1ng3rs]

I think what Russ was saying is this..

If Sun 075/090 Then Blue

[Guillaume]

I may be blond some times. I will go this way and test it for a while.

Thanks !!

[Guillaume]

Can we put two If Sun condition in the same Outlet progr?
I'm doing it and it act like if it would read only the last one.

[RussM]

Originally Posted by Guillaume

Can we put two If Sun condition in the same Outlet progr?
I'm doing it and it act like if it would read only the last one.

You are correct. The latter one will override the first one.

[RussM]

Originally Posted by itchyf1ng3rs

I think what Russ was saying is this..

If Sun 075/090 Then Blue

Exactly. I merely used the generic naming for a profile in my example.

[Guillaume]

I'm testing it with BlueLED and got two questions:

1- Why the BlueLED outlet stays in the Blue profile status at the end of the day when the ramp down is finished?
2- I made a "BlueDay" profile to get a constant light condition during the day and avoid a new ramp up after a storm during the day. When "BlueDay" get ON, the XML report states a "pulse" value while the Status page states a "BlueDay" as it should. Why this value in the XML report?

Here are my details:

Outlets:

"BlueLED"
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 075/090 Then Blue
If Outlet TheDay = ON Then BlueDay
If Temp > 82.0 Then OFF
Min Time 001:00 Then OFF

"TheDay"
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 165/-001 Then ON

Profiles:

"Blue"
Ramp time (minutes) 90
Start intensity 0
End intensity 50

"BlueDay"
Ramp time (minutes) 0
Start intensity 50
End intensity 50

XML report:

04/03/2012 09:51:00
BlueLED
Pulse


Thanks!

[Guillaume]

Wow, it is getting less and less clear!
It is 11:00.
I'm playing with the If Sun command to test it with the lights.
When I'm putting a time that is past, it is starting its ramp up (from 0 to 50% in 60 min. as per profile):
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 075/090 Then Blue

But if I put a time in a near future, the lights get at 50% power as per profile. But in my view, lights should be off and wait before starting its ramp up:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 300/-340 Then Blue (should kik ON at 12:05, not being full ON now!!)
If Temp > 82.0 Then OFF

What is wrong?

[Guillaume]

Looks like the If time works properly by the way

[Guillaume]

For the record, I finally used the programs proposed in this thread, a little more heavy but easier to figure out :http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2019489

However, when I will have tested enough with this, I keep thinking the reverse ramp program will worth a try.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by RussM

When you use the If Sun command, the Apex will automatically do a reverse ramp at the end of the day.

Set OFF
If Sun 000/000 Then PFx

is all you really need. Use different time offsets in the If Sun command as to have each color channel ramp up and ramp down as desired.

The Neptune Apex user guide clearly states...

"The ramp profile allows for... to be gradually ramped up or down in intensity."

The operative word there is "or". It does not say "and'. So this appears to be undocumented functionality. And if it is, how do we know it will continue to be supported?

I'd happily use this, if I knew it was not going to potentially break after a firmware upgrade. Its so simple to implement.

But until I know its supported, I'll continue to use the more complex method Guillotine linked to. Much safer.

[RussM]

Scolley, the auto ramp down at the end of the period determined by If Sun was added into firmware after the last update to the manual. (the official manual is in dire need of update in many ways!) I have not used it since I don't have any way to test it. But Kenargo says it works, and that's plenty good enough for me.

I can't image that Neptune would remove it from future firmware.

[scolley]

Thanks Russ. I think it's beautiful in its simplicity.

I'm on a pad at the moment (not a pc) and can't easily check the firmware.So...

Is it the last official - not beta - release? And if so, was the functionality documented in the release notes? That would be plenty good enough for me.

Thanks for the help.

[RussM]

Originally Posted by scolley

Is it the last official - not beta - release? And if so, was the functionality documented in the release notes?

I don't know for sure... I think it was added in 4.04 or 4.05.

Release notes are so frustratingly vague... it's not mentioned.

[scolley]

Hmmm... That's too bad.

May test it out thus weekend anyway. I hate the thought of something breaking. However, worse things can happen than lights not working right. And you figure it out pretty quickly.

I'll give it a shot this weekend, and post results here.

[Guillaume]

This is great Steeve. Looking forward to see the results!
Cannot test myself. I'm installing the AI lights on my tank upgrade in two weeks from now.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Guillaume

This is great Steeve. Looking forward to see the results!

Guillaume - RussM was very clear about needing the most recent version of Apex firmware for this to work. And thinking - but not checking - that I had it, I made the changes.

And to my surprise my lights came on. Yet I had the If Sun offsets high enough so that my lights should not have come on for an hour or so. But they were on. THATS when I realized that I needed to upgrade my firmware.

I'm bringing this up because it seemed like you experienced something similar. Maybe you aren't on the latest firmware either? Do check.

Any way, the test is easy. But I've got to upgrade the firmware first. And I have a wireless connection to the Apex, which is a no-no for firmware upgrades. So when I get time - maybe tonight - I'll plug a laptop into the Apex and do the upgrade. But today is consumed with Easter preparations. So at best I'll get it done tonight, observe how it works tomorrow, and post results tomorrow night or Monday night after work. So hang in there... I'll have it tested soon.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by RussM

When you use the If Sun command, the Apex will automatically do a reverse ramp at the end of the day.

Set OFF
If Sun 000/000 Then PFx

is all you really need. Use different time offsets in the If Sun command as to have each color channel ramp up and ramp down as desired.

Sorry folks. I upgraded the firmware, and it does not work.

It's well past sun down, and I put in the above syntax for my LEDs, and they turned on when they should be off. Don't know why. But it seems pretty clear that this undocumented function is not ready for prime time.

Stick with the more complex method. Sorry.

[scolley]

You know, in retrospect, I should not have said that it does not work. That's because I did not give it a chance to ramp up in the morning, and ramp down at night. It might. But IF it does, it's a very odd implementation. Maybe last night my my lights were ramping down. Could have been in the process of doing that, for all I know.

But any implementation where lights can come on when they are supposed to be off is that one I don't want to use when there are more reliable alternatives. And there are.