What Reef temp range fluctuations are OK? - Page 2

Weyrman · 04/12/2012, 11:56 PM

In the alternative... Could a chiller be easily vented to a garage?

That way it'd be in the cooler house but not discharging into the house. I realise that means it would create a vacumm in the house which would draw hot air in from outside.

I could also easily put it in the m-i-l guest room... lol Which door we keep shut all the time anyway. I wouldn't care if that room got a bit warmer and that wouldn't affect the house A/C load much at all. Hmmm... That would eliminate the chiller noise in the family room too. When the room is actually being used I could move the chiller out to the family room where the tank is.

And yes, in the grand picture I'm only looking at, what, $50 a month in savings for 6 months a year? That's still $300. Breakeven would be about 2 years. But I gain fallback if I have a house A/C failure.

Pyrrhus · 04/13/2012, 09:56 AM

Venting into the garage or unused guest room is probably the best way to install a chiller.

The vacuum is probably not much of an issue. Some AC units are designed to draw ~10% outside air into the home while they run and exhausting humid air from near the fish tank can actually let the AC run better (they have to dehumidify before cooling).

5 years back I was a big proponent of having a chiller as insurance for the tank, now it makes more sense to me to put that money toward efficient pumps, LED lighting, and cooling fans on a controller like the Neptune Apex/Apex Jr.

The flexibility and peace of mind a few fans on a controller can provide is huge. Fan1 turns on at say 79.5, fan2 turns on at 80.5, unnecessary pumps/ lighting turns off at 81.0, controller sends you an email to notify of the condition at 81.2, etc. An Apex Jr. with a couple fans can be had for under $200 and can easily accomplish all I mentioned above and much much more.

OwenInAZ · 04/13/2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrhus

Venting into the garage or unused guest room is probably the best way to install a chiller.

The vacuum is probably not much of an issue. Some AC units are designed to draw ~10% outside air into the home while they run and exhausting humid air from near the fish tank can actually let the AC run better (they have to dehumidify before cooling).

5 years back I was a big proponent of having a chiller as insurance for the tank, now it makes more sense to me to put that money toward efficient pumps, LED lighting, and cooling fans on a controller like the Neptune Apex/Apex Jr.

The flexibility and peace of mind a few fans on a controller can provide is huge. Fan1 turns on at say 79.5, fan2 turns on at 80.5, unnecessary pumps/ lighting turns off at 81.0, controller sends you an email to notify of the condition at 81.2, etc. An Apex Jr. with a couple fans can be had for under $200 and can easily accomplish all I mentioned above and much much more.

Never once had a chiller, I have a Mag7 return pump, two K4's, 800W of MH lighting. Never ran fans, just relied on the AC and never went over 200 dollars for electricity in a 1300 sf house. Temp maybe hit 83 in the summer, but the corals acclimated well because the house heatup happened slowly throughout the year.

Sammibaz · 04/14/2012, 03:29 PM

For what its worth....I have a 240g with 3 (250w) metal halides and 4 (5') T5s, hung about 6-7" from the water surface, in a canopy. My tank is against a wall so the back and top of the canopy are "open air". I keep my a/c at 76 degrees all summer, never adjusting up or down, regardless if we are home or not. I run two small Tunze fans right across the water level and one basic desk/household fav in my bottom cabinet where the sump is.

My water stays right at 78-79 degrees all day, even with the serious heat from the halides. I figure I evaporate about 2-3 gallons a day. My SRP bill runs about $535 (2500 sq ft, single level, with a pool and 2 a/c units).

I opt not for a chiller because I hear they will heat up your house like CRAZY! If my fish are going to be cool...I'll be damned if I'm going to be sweating! 76 and we are all chill and happy

Weyrman · 04/15/2012, 12:27 AM

Yikes!!! 2,600 sq ft and you pay ~$500+ month for electricity to keep it at 76 degrees? What did it run before you ran MH on your tank?

I suppose you don't get in your pool until the water temps are over 90 degrees?

I have 4,000+ sq ft. Dropping to 76 degrees would cost a fortune. I'm keeping it at 81 while I'm here and it's under $500 on the two hottest months of summer. I'm under $300 the rest of summer.

Based on your numbers I'm saving enough to get new LEDs. And still have enough for a chiller and a backup power supply for when the A/C units go down and the power goes off. Just kidding. But I might do the numbers just for fun.

I'm going to play around with fans to see what that does. I have 4 T5 VHO 4 foot bulbs.

jporter · 04/15/2012, 09:39 AM

Weyrman, I have my chiller ducted into the garage on the other side of the wall. Same with the fans from my MH fixture. My office where the tank is located stays as cool as before the tank was put in. The only drawback is noise from the chiller. It's a 1/3 HP chiller and is not completely silent. The tank stays between 78-79 and the chiller runs a few times a day.

Weyrman · 05/03/2012, 09:12 AM

Yesterday I mounted two clip on fans to the open top hood just to see what fans might be capabale of doing. They were 6 inch 2 speed fans using 17 watts each on high speed. A fairly good air flow. I got them from CVX for about $13 each.

I considered using an extra low wattage (3.5 watts I think) 200mm computer cooling fan I have but mounting would have required more effort than I was interested in undertaking at the moment. The clipons have way more air flow too.

About noon yesterday I attached them so they were pointing at a downward angle over the water at each end of the 135 gallon 5 foot by 2 foot tank. The tank was at 81 degrees as was the house. I turned both fans on high speed. Around 5PM the house had reached 85 degrees without the air on. The tank had cooled to 77 degrees.

Yikes!!! At 6AM this morning the tank was at 73 degrees. The house was at 76 degrees. I immediately turned the fans off. Noone looks the worse for wear, yet, but I'm going to watch things a little more closely.

The fans turned out to be way more efficient at cooling the tank than I expected. I didn't expect them to cool things so much or so quickly.

I'm going to experiment with fan speeds and putting the fans on the light timers. Only running them during the day while the lights are on may be all that is needed. It should also be easier to maintain a more stable temperature once the air is on all the time. For now the air is still off.

Since the clipon fans did so much maybe I'll play around with the 200mm cpu case fan and see what it is capable of since it draws so much less power.

lostmyz · 05/03/2012, 09:28 AM

I agree I am going to try some fans. I have two 5" global box fans I had on my 125 gal yrs ago. So my question is.... direction of fans... straight across the surface or can I mount to my canopy and placed at a 45 degree angle each way? I am trying to make them hidden in my floating shelf.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

kingevil · 05/03/2012, 09:37 AM

i have never been a fan of fans. as you have just found out, they don't always work the way we want them to. i believe in order to make them work properly, you would have to place your heater and thermometer in your dt. i believe the issue is having the heater/thermostat too far from the water's surface, where all of the cooling is taking place.

lostmyz · 05/03/2012, 09:56 AM

True.... I have a thermometer in my DT and sump (both always read the same but than again the heater is set to 76 and the tank hasn't been 76 in a while.) but my heater is in my sump. I have my chiller keeping the tank at 82/83 so its not running all day. I will try the fans on a timer and see what I get I think. Id like it to be 75-80

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Weyrman · 05/03/2012, 10:02 AM

@ lostmyz - At this point I have the fans facing at about a 60 degree angle to the water. They are in opposite corners aimed diagonally across the tank. The only visible thing is their clamp on the top of the hood. They are set up so they can't fall into the tank. The whole tank is on a GFCI protected circuit.

@ kingevil - Or maybe the heater couldn't keep up with the fans? Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

I may look into a temperature controller for the fans too. I saw somewhere here on RC where someone had done a "high/low" temperature control with fans in conjunction with their lights. That way when the temp drops to a certain point the fans would be turned off. They had their lights go off if it got too warm. I think chillers work in a similar fashion.

If I can dial this in then the energy savings might be quite good. 34 watts vs something like 300 to 400 for a chiller? Plus the fans are no noisier than the rest of the system. Some have said their chillers are noisy.

kingevil · 05/03/2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weyrman

@ kingevil - Or maybe the heater couldn't keep up with the fans? Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

yes that is possible. you'd have to watch the heater light and see if it is on or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weyrman

I may look into a temperature controller for the fans too. I saw somewhere here on RC where someone had done a "high/low" temperature control with fans in conjunction with their lights. That way when the temp drops to a certain point the fans would be turned off. They had their lights go off if it got too warm. I think chillers work in a similar fashion.

good excuse to get a reef keeper lite! you can get the basic model used for about $80.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weyrman

If I can dial this in then the energy savings might be quite good. 34 watts vs something like 300 to 400 for a chiller? Plus the fans are no noisier than the rest of the system. Some have said their chillers are noisy.

i don't like chillers. i'd rather turn up the air conditioner in the house, rather than use a chiller.

Weyrman · 05/03/2012, 10:14 AM

@ kingevil - Thanks for the reef keeper lite reference. I'll have to check it out further. I'm looking at an ATO setup from Spectrapure which might dovetail nicely with that too.

I'm with you on chiller versus a cooler home.

lostmyz · 05/03/2012, 10:58 AM

I agree I don't like my chiller too much... the cost of its use is more than its worth. Im going to try fans and maybe something like you guys are talking about to control it with the temp fluctuations. I was looking into an apex unit!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

kingevil · 05/03/2012, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostmyz

I agree I don't like my chiller too much... the cost of its use is more than its worth. Im going to try fans and maybe something like you guys are talking about to control it with the temp fluctuations. I was looking into an apex unit!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

i have a neat aquarium clip-on fan: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2163411

i wonder if you could wire a dimmer into it.

lostmyz · 05/03/2012, 12:00 PM

I think im going to wire up.my two.fans this wknd and put them on a dimmer switch and a timer. And hopefully I can figure someway out to control it via temp.... I probably can with an apex unit

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Willow01 · 05/03/2012, 12:32 PM

Well being the nerd I am, and I tend to cannibalize old computer parts, CPU fans being one of them. I've actually spliced a 12v CPU cooling fan to an old 12v power supply and it keeps my tank nice and cool when the lights come on since it's attatched to my timer. Its attached to a shelf right above my 10 gallon, by an eye loop screw and picture wire.

As you can see by the pics, it's not the prettiest but it works very well. Dropped my tank from 80 to 76

lostmyz · 05/03/2012, 12:49 PM

Here are my fans! Super quiet and super effective cooled my 125yrs ago!

uploadfromtaptalk1336070941043.jpg

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Philwd · 05/08/2012, 04:03 PM

It's been a while since I had my 150 up but thought I'd give my .02c.

Reefs in the wild can easily see 8 degree ranges throughout the day. There was data that showed the parts of the GBR that saw larger daily temp fluctuations had less bleaching from higher temps. This acclimates the corals to better withstand a short duration temp spike. I typically ran my SPS tank with w 4 degree range.

But I also had my tank set up to be low temp. 250W lights no VHO, MP40 flow, open top, fans on hood and sump controlled by a controller. No chiller. Fans effectiveness will depend on how humid the room the tank is in gets. In a large house like yours probably not a problem.

Weyrman · 05/08/2012, 06:01 PM

I've been playing with the fans now for a few days. House temps ranged between 74 to 85 degrees. No A/C yet. Open upstairs windows at night and the house cools down nicely. One fan during the day is all it takes to keep the tank at about 76 degrees unless it gets up to 85 degrees in the house. So I've put one fan on the light timer for now.

I was at The Aquarious last week and Carlos suggested a temp range of 75-77 degrees. He also gave me some other recommended water parameter ranges.

I added an Spectrapure ATO as water was evaporating at a pretty good clip with the fans running. Around 2 or 3 gallons a day. I have a 55 gallon RO/DI storage tank that I connected it to.

The ATO keeps the 30 gallon sump level to within a 1/4 inch range.

Once it gets hot day and night and the A/C is running I'm sure the fan use will go up. At that time I'll check into a reefkeeper setup to perhaps control the fans.

04/13/2012, 09:56 AM	#27
Pyrrhus Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 2,830	Venting into the garage or unused guest room is probably the best way to install a chiller. The vacuum is probably not much of an issue. Some AC units are designed to draw ~10% outside air into the home while they run and exhausting humid air from near the fish tank can actually let the AC run better (they have to dehumidify before cooling). 5 years back I was a big proponent of having a chiller as insurance for the tank, now it makes more sense to me to put that money toward efficient pumps, LED lighting, and cooling fans on a controller like the Neptune Apex/Apex Jr. The flexibility and peace of mind a few fans on a controller can provide is huge. Fan1 turns on at say 79.5, fan2 turns on at 80.5, unnecessary pumps/ lighting turns off at 81.0, controller sends you an email to notify of the condition at 81.2, etc. An Apex Jr. with a couple fans can be had for under $200 and can easily accomplish all I mentioned above and much much more. __________________ Severe Knowledge In Plumbing

05/03/2012, 09:28 AM	#33
lostmyz Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Glendale, Az Posts: 2,330	I agree I am going to try some fans. I have two 5" global box fans I had on my 125 gal yrs ago. So my question is.... direction of fans... straight across the surface or can I mount to my canopy and placed at a 45 degree angle each way? I am trying to make them hidden in my floating shelf. Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 __________________ 72 gal bow front FOWLR with some few corals - Damn you Rabbitfish! 5 gal Fluval Spec (over complicated) PICO - build thread

05/03/2012, 09:56 AM	#35
lostmyz Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Glendale, Az Posts: 2,330	True.... I have a thermometer in my DT and sump (both always read the same but than again the heater is set to 76 and the tank hasn't been 76 in a while.) but my heater is in my sump. I have my chiller keeping the tank at 82/83 so its not running all day. I will try the fans on a timer and see what I get I think. Id like it to be 75-80 Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 __________________ 72 gal bow front FOWLR with some few corals - Damn you Rabbitfish! 5 gal Fluval Spec (over complicated) PICO - build thread

05/03/2012, 10:58 AM	#39
lostmyz Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Glendale, Az Posts: 2,330	I agree I don't like my chiller too much... the cost of its use is more than its worth. Im going to try fans and maybe something like you guys are talking about to control it with the temp fluctuations. I was looking into an apex unit! Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 __________________ 72 gal bow front FOWLR with some few corals - Damn you Rabbitfish! 5 gal Fluval Spec (over complicated) PICO - build thread

05/03/2012, 12:00 PM	#41
lostmyz Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Glendale, Az Posts: 2,330	I think im going to wire up.my two.fans this wknd and put them on a dimmer switch and a timer. And hopefully I can figure someway out to control it via temp.... I probably can with an apex unit Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 __________________ 72 gal bow front FOWLR with some few corals - Damn you Rabbitfish! 5 gal Fluval Spec (over complicated) PICO - build thread

04/12/2012, 11:56 PM	#26
Weyrman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: South Valley Posts: 849	In the alternative... Could a chiller be easily vented to a garage? That way it'd be in the cooler house but not discharging into the house. I realise that means it would create a vacumm in the house which would draw hot air in from outside. I could also easily put it in the m-i-l guest room... lol Which door we keep shut all the time anyway. I wouldn't care if that room got a bit warmer and that wouldn't affect the house A/C load much at all. Hmmm... That would eliminate the chiller noise in the family room too. When the room is actually being used I could move the chiller out to the family room where the tank is. And yes, in the grand picture I'm only looking at, what, $50 a month in savings for 6 months a year? That's still $300. Breakeven would be about 2 years. But I gain fallback if I have a house A/C failure.

04/14/2012, 03:29 PM	#29
Sammibaz Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 262	For what its worth....I have a 240g with 3 (250w) metal halides and 4 (5') T5s, hung about 6-7" from the water surface, in a canopy. My tank is against a wall so the back and top of the canopy are "open air". I keep my a/c at 76 degrees all summer, never adjusting up or down, regardless if we are home or not. I run two small Tunze fans right across the water level and one basic desk/household fav in my bottom cabinet where the sump is. My water stays right at 78-79 degrees all day, even with the serious heat from the halides. I figure I evaporate about 2-3 gallons a day. My SRP bill runs about $535 (2500 sq ft, single level, with a pool and 2 a/c units). I opt not for a chiller because I hear they will heat up your house like CRAZY! If my fish are going to be cool...I'll be damned if I'm going to be sweating! 76 and we are all chill and happy

04/15/2012, 12:27 AM	#30
Weyrman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: South Valley Posts: 849	Yikes!!! 2,600 sq ft and you pay ~$500+ month for electricity to keep it at 76 degrees? What did it run before you ran MH on your tank? I suppose you don't get in your pool until the water temps are over 90 degrees? I have 4,000+ sq ft. Dropping to 76 degrees would cost a fortune. I'm keeping it at 81 while I'm here and it's under $500 on the two hottest months of summer. I'm under $300 the rest of summer. Based on your numbers I'm saving enough to get new LEDs. And still have enough for a chiller and a backup power supply for when the A/C units go down and the power goes off. Just kidding. But I might do the numbers just for fun. I'm going to play around with fans to see what that does. I have 4 T5 VHO 4 foot bulbs.

04/15/2012, 09:39 AM	#31
jporter Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 775	Weyrman, I have my chiller ducted into the garage on the other side of the wall. Same with the fans from my MH fixture. My office where the tank is located stays as cool as before the tank was put in. The only drawback is noise from the chiller. It's a 1/3 HP chiller and is not completely silent. The tank stays between 78-79 and the chiller runs a few times a day.

05/03/2012, 09:37 AM	#34
kingevil Moved On Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: phx/east valley Posts: 934	i have never been a fan of fans. as you have just found out, they don't always work the way we want them to. i believe in order to make them work properly, you would have to place your heater and thermometer in your dt. i believe the issue is having the heater/thermostat too far from the water's surface, where all of the cooling is taking place.

05/03/2012, 10:02 AM	#36
Weyrman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: South Valley Posts: 849	@ lostmyz - At this point I have the fans facing at about a 60 degree angle to the water. They are in opposite corners aimed diagonally across the tank. The only visible thing is their clamp on the top of the hood. They are set up so they can't fall into the tank. The whole tank is on a GFCI protected circuit. @ kingevil - Or maybe the heater couldn't keep up with the fans? Thanks, I'll have to check that out. I may look into a temperature controller for the fans too. I saw somewhere here on RC where someone had done a "high/low" temperature control with fans in conjunction with their lights. That way when the temp drops to a certain point the fans would be turned off. They had their lights go off if it got too warm. I think chillers work in a similar fashion. If I can dial this in then the energy savings might be quite good. 34 watts vs something like 300 to 400 for a chiller? Plus the fans are no noisier than the rest of the system. Some have said their chillers are noisy.

05/03/2012, 10:14 AM	#38
Weyrman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: South Valley Posts: 849	@ kingevil - Thanks for the reef keeper lite reference. I'll have to check it out further. I'm looking at an ATO setup from Spectrapure which might dovetail nicely with that too. I'm with you on chiller versus a cooler home.

05/03/2012, 12:32 PM	#42
Willow01 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 187	Well being the nerd I am, and I tend to cannibalize old computer parts, CPU fans being one of them. I've actually spliced a 12v CPU cooling fan to an old 12v power supply and it keeps my tank nice and cool when the lights come on since it's attatched to my timer. Its attached to a shelf right above my 10 gallon, by an eye loop screw and picture wire. As you can see by the pics, it's not the prettiest but it works very well. Dropped my tank from 80 to 76

05/03/2012, 12:49 PM	#43
lostmyz Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Glendale, Az Posts: 2,330	Here are my fans! Super quiet and super effective cooled my 125yrs ago! uploadfromtaptalk1336070941043.jpg Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 __________________ 72 gal bow front FOWLR with some few corals - Damn you Rabbitfish! 5 gal Fluval Spec (over complicated) PICO - build thread

05/08/2012, 04:03 PM	#44
Philwd Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Gilbert, Az Posts: 4,098	It's been a while since I had my 150 up but thought I'd give my .02c. Reefs in the wild can easily see 8 degree ranges throughout the day. There was data that showed the parts of the GBR that saw larger daily temp fluctuations had less bleaching from higher temps. This acclimates the corals to better withstand a short duration temp spike. I typically ran my SPS tank with w 4 degree range. But I also had my tank set up to be low temp. 250W lights no VHO, MP40 flow, open top, fans on hood and sump controlled by a controller. No chiller. Fans effectiveness will depend on how humid the room the tank is in gets. In a large house like yours probably not a problem.

05/08/2012, 06:01 PM	#45
Weyrman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: South Valley Posts: 849	I've been playing with the fans now for a few days. House temps ranged between 74 to 85 degrees. No A/C yet. Open upstairs windows at night and the house cools down nicely. One fan during the day is all it takes to keep the tank at about 76 degrees unless it gets up to 85 degrees in the house. So I've put one fan on the light timer for now. I was at The Aquarious last week and Carlos suggested a temp range of 75-77 degrees. He also gave me some other recommended water parameter ranges. I added an Spectrapure ATO as water was evaporating at a pretty good clip with the fans running. Around 2 or 3 gallons a day. I have a 55 gallon RO/DI storage tank that I connected it to. The ATO keeps the 30 gallon sump level to within a 1/4 inch range. Once it gets hot day and night and the A/C is running I'm sure the fan use will go up. At that time I'll check into a reefkeeper setup to perhaps control the fans.