IF YOU INTEND A REEF---REMOVE these things:

[Sk8r]

1. bioballs ---gradually, if you've begun to use them! 3 every 2 days until gone. NEVER make a sudden change in filtration: always do it gradually!
2. sponges---nitrate factories, and corals don't like nitrate. Even a sponge that's a prefilter for a pump can cause trouble. Making a little cage of eggcrate and fishing line; or plastic needlepoint canvas; or any thing similar---something that won't start a culture in its pores.
3. filter medium---same as 2. ALWAYS, if you're going to remove something, remove it gradually, piece at a time, if you have to cut it with scissors.
4. cannister filters---if you have a sump, just gradually phase out the cannister. If you're using it instead of a sump, start making plans to have a sump, but meanwhile, gradually fill that cannister with live rock rubble, nothing else.
5. filter socks---keep these clean!!!!!!! I don't use them, personally. My corals are my filters. If you're running sps, they can be useful as a final polish filter, but most tanks are too dirty and they end up causing problems. If you're softie or lps, let your corals have the yummy stuff that's been going into the filter socks. They'll like it.

RE your sandbed-------don't disturb a sandbed. Let nassarius snails do that job, 2 per 50 gallons. 1 fighting conch per 50 gallons. Messing with a sandbed is a way to crash a tank.

HTH.

[Saltydrip]

Thanks.

I have sponges in my canister and have been wondering about removing the canister all togeather. I think I'll do that now that I'm starting to add corals. It will free up some space for some reactors.

[littlec984]

Originally Posted by sk8r

1. Bioballs ---gradually, if you've begun to use them! 3 every 2 days until gone. never make a sudden change in filtration: Always do it gradually!
2. Sponges---nitrate factories, and corals don't like nitrate. Even a sponge that's a prefilter for a pump can cause trouble. Making a little cage of eggcrate and fishing line; or plastic needlepoint canvas; or any thing similar---something that won't start a culture in its pores.
3. Filter medium---same as 2. always, if you're going to remove something, remove it gradually, piece at a time, if you have to cut it with scissors.
4. Cannister filters---if you have a sump, just gradually phase out the cannister. If you're using it instead of a sump, start making plans to have a sump, but meanwhile, gradually fill that cannister with live rock rubble, nothing else.
5. Filter socks---keep these clean!!!!!!! I don't use them, personally. My corals are my filters. If you're running sps, they can be useful as a final polish filter, but most tanks are too dirty and they end up causing problems. If you're softie or lps, let your corals have the yummy stuff that's been going into the filter socks. They'll like it.

Re your sandbed-------don't disturb a sandbed. Let nassarius snails do that job, 2 per 50 gallons. 1 fighting conch per 50 gallons. Messing with a sandbed is a way to crash a tank.

Hth.

+1

[mlott132]

Great info. I am in the process of setting up my FOWLR but will switch to reef down the road. This will help me in some of my equipment decision making.

[jason2459]

I hate to say it but there's an argument for and against each thing in that list. If you use any kind of filtration you have to maintain it and keep cleaning it. If maintained properly everything listed is just fine to be used.

[Sk8r]

You can make an argument FOR almost anything as long as you are willing to hover over it and tend it so that it works tolerably and doesn't crash your tank; otoh, if you want your softie and lps corals to grow better, get rid of these things. All they're doing is sopping up food the corals could use before they can get it, then letting it decay to a substance which supports algae very well. Corals prefer the fish and worm poo, but nitrate does not make for favorable conditions.

[jason2459]

Well I don't want to get into a lot of back and forth but after seeing some large professional reef tanks ran on bioballs, canister filters, sponge filters and so on I have just learned that the tank is how you make it and there are many ways that can be done. I personally would not go back to a canister filter or bioballs but won't tell someone to toss them either as long as they are maintained they are just fine used along with other filtration and/or nitrate reducing methods. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[dzfish17]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Well I don't want to get into a lot of back and forth but after seeing some large professional reef tanks ran on bioballs, canister filters, sponge filters and so on I have just learned that the tank is how you make it and there are many ways that can be done. I personally would not go back to a canister filter or bioballs but won't tell someone to toss them either as long as they are maintained they are just fine used along with other filtration and/or nitrate reducing methods. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Ill just agree with this... there are alot of ways to run a successful reef tank. Paul Bs tank is a good example.

[TucanSam007]

I'm all for cleaning the least amount of equipment possible. Not having anything in that list helps me keep my system free of nitrates without the added maintenance. Sure I have to clean my skimmer and make sure my pumps are clean but thats it really. With that said, I've worked on large reef tanks that had filter socks/bioballs and they looked great, but we had employees cleaning them out constantly. Either way, what ever methods works for you. If your tank look great and you get into a maintenance routine, whats the difference .

This is a good list for those that want to keep their hands out of their tank as much as possible though.

[Renaisancexx]

Thanks for the advice. I plan on setting up a reef tank in the near future and am coming from a freshwater background so this helps a lot!

[Sk8r]

I ran a reef on bioballs myself back in the 80's. It worked. I've also run one with an undergravel filter. It worked---not as well as the bioballs, but it worked. I've run one with filter floss and charcoal, and that worked. The live rock method works multiple times better than all of these. The reason stores don't all run differently is that a) some date to 1980; and b) some don't have room for enough live rock or a proper sump; and c) some are still selling crushed coral and advising to cycle with damsels. The reason I advise getting rid of these is that they don't work better, and if a newbie makes a mistake with them they spectacularly don't work and fish die. A floss filter on a quarantine tank works fine. On a reef, not so well.

[badharley99]

Live rock is the best method

[jason2459]

A new LFS around me just started up ... using sponges and they recommend proper cycling and a QT setup. A large aquarium just did a complete overhall in the millions if dollars and stuck with bioballs because as quoted when I ask why they kept them "because they work." I use an undergravel filter myself and loved it on my 55 and now on my new 180 I setup recently.

Like a previous poster said that if its working and you like it then I wouldn't change it. Everyone has different likes and dislikes and methods for maintenance.

[Sk8r]

This is, you will note, the newbie forum. If you have been at this as long as I have, and are happy with glass beads, undergravel, or bioballs, or floss filters or pot filters, good luck. WHere you have to hire a series of people who may not be reliable running or logging accurate chemistry, or where the tank is, through proportion of biomass to rock, not capable of setting up as a live rock reef, there are reasons for going for one of the old methods. It is also possible you have a reef that has been running since 1965, in which case I might be tempted to transfer the inhabitants to a more modern tank for ease of care in my old age, but likely the entire set of equipment goes nicely together and will continue to run nicely for the next decade. It just takes a lot of maintenance to run the old equipment. Some sorts of reef, particularly softies, can succeed with it: I used to have nice zoas and mushrooms with bioballs---the lights just weren't adequate for stony, and in those days a metal halide rig was in the thousands of dollars. I also know how much work it was maintaining four levels of drip trays, bioballs and filter pads: not to mention the crushed coral. If you're starting your tank today there is no sense setting up problems for yourself by using bioballs, etc. They're great for fish-onlies, or for special situations where live rock/sandbed can't be made large enough or stable enough to work well.

[JustinGr]

I am in the process of removing the bio balls, 1/3 down, taking it slow, but I'll get there.

Jg

[jason2459]

I understand this is the new to the hobby section as I still consider myself new to the hobby. I also would not recommend some one just setting up a new tank with something like a trickle filter or many if the things you mentioned. I would recommend though that each person research each piece of equipment, what its use is actually for, what it takes to maintain said piece of equipment and make a educated decision on how they want to run their tank.

What I didn't like is that your post comes off like these tools are completely useless or impossible to keep a reef with. I know plenty of people that love their canister filters and use that solely to maintain their tanks and find it easier to quickly clean that out one a week to every other week. And yes I've seen bioballs that were used to maintain many different types of tanks including fish only, softies, hard corals, and mixed reefs very successfully. Do I want to use them, no. Would I recommend someone else use them, no.

[CapitolsRock]

eggcrate and fishing line; or plastic needlepoint canvas; or any thing similar---something that won't start a culture in its pores.

Confused - I thought eggcrate was a friend ?

Can you explain further?

What about filter socks for GFO/carbon?

[gpx1200]

i look at this as simple as it realy is, a reef aqurium should simulate a natural reef environment as closely as posible with as much life as posible that would be present on a reef, this is sustaned by sand ,rock,plants and sunlight, no sponges,filtersocks or anything else unnatural straining out all the tiny pods,plankton and other life forms that are achualy nessary to sustain a natural ecosystem. in the ocean skimate is produced in all that white foam every time a wave crashes on the shore and it gets deposited on the sand wear it gets consumed by bacteria instead of going into a cup to be removed, in my opinion a protien skimmer is the only type of filter that produces anything close to natural filtration and is the only real filter iv'e used on my reeftanks for the past 10 years, my total system consists of skimmer,refugum full of rock rubble sand and macroalgie with an ocational small bag of charcoal and lots of liverock in the tank.
most of the experienced reefkeepers i know have come to the conclution that this aproach is what works best so why tell anyone any different, shure they could mess around with oldschool outdated methouds and probably come to the same conclution we did or they could start off with the best option posible.
traditional ways only last untill someone comes up with somthing better then the traditional way becomes the old way.

[TucanSam007]

This list is great. For newbies and reef junkies alike, it's simple and effective. The "older" methods work but at the cost of more strict maintenance. Once you start slacking or decide to go on vacation and forget to remove your filter socks/sponges, any advantages are lost and could easily start crashing your tank. Great post Sk8tr.

[Tmoriarty]

So I guess I should light my tank with PC's because they work???? I agree with Sk8r here, the methods she listed are lower maintenace which for a newer reefer is a good idea. The other methods require not only a lot of maintenance but proper maintenance. Saying that those methods are fine to use is only partially true. Just because something "works" does not mean there are not better methods now that work much better. I also run my tank with no filters or pre-filters, no filter socks. I like free flow through my tank without worrying about cleaning up filters.

Researching stuff like bio-balls may not tell you the need to clean part of them at a time only to not kill your biological filter in the tank. A new reefer may take out all his bio-balls at once to clean them and effectively kill his de-nitrifying bacteria, thus causing a possible ammonia/nitrite spike, possibly killing his "reef". Like Sk8r said, this advice is for a reef tank more than a FOWLR, the reasons are simply that fish can take a lot more than corals.

[Stu Pickles]

It would have been great to know that 2 nassarius per 50 gallons were enough. I have probably 50-60 in my 75 gallon. lol. I originally had I think about 5 or 6 trochus as well, thought they all died but one , I now know that there are 2 left. Probably 4 or 5 hermits. I have put peppermints in several times, figured the reason for the first few times of death and removed the killers. Now I added 8 this last time and over time I haven't seen them. I hear a snapping sound in the tank at night ( guessing a pistol shrimp is where they have gone this time?). My blood red fire shrimp is still alive though.Curious if it is a pistol because i can never seem to find him.

[Sithlord95]

SK8r-
What do you recommend for the sump? Just live rock? And how much, as much as we can fit? Thanks

[Ron Reefman]

I'm going to agree with Jason2459. Sk8r, I think you are one of the best posters on RC, but as you keep putting out new lists, your explanations get shorter and less helpful. You know what you are talking about, but just saying these are bad and DON"T USE THEM isn't useful to some/many/ most newbies you are trying to help. I think your latest list goes just a bit too far. You list these items as if they are all BAD and don't use them. Yet later you mention that you used to use some of the things you listed and ran healthy tanks. Just because they aren't the lastest technology doesn't mean we throw them out. Some newbies by established systems and may use some of what you have told them not to use. That can scare a newbie into doing something bad. You need a better lead into your list explaining WHY you think these are older and less successful ideas that can still work. Sk8r, you have the skill and knowledge to do better than this list. You have done so many times in the past. Just my humble opinion.

[jason2459]

I like the idea of keeping it natural but the fact is our tanks are the farthest thing from natural. They are a closed system which even the largest tanks in the world have issues to overcome that the ocean does not.

I use a sponge on my pump intake for my undergravel filter to remove most large particles and a place that I've found bacteria just thrive on. I find it very easy to slip it off and rinse in a bucket very quickly once a week exporting that bacteria. I also decided to run a filter sock compared to not running one for the same reason. It is exporting a lot of bacteria that seems to really like to grow on it. Both of these are actually helping me to reduce nitrates. I dose a carbon source, vinegar, to drive up my bacteria populations. With out the filter sock I was getting to much bacteria growth in my display tank. Exporting the bacteria exports the nutrients they have consumed. I don't worry about the microfauna being removed as it is also constantly growing. Trust me I have to make sure I have enough pods in my system to support the fish that I have. Which I know my undergravel filter is helping to maintain. I have no idea what other benifts it has but it has always been a pod factory. What ever negatives there are is greatly outwayed. I'll have to clean it out one of these days but that will be easy now that its in my sump.

Bioballs do need to be cleaned but so does everything we run in our tank. I used to run a softcoral setup with PC lighting and a canister filter (sponge, bioballs, ceramic rings, and a polishing pad). I still wish I had that setup. I loved it. I thought it was very easy to maintain. I also had a HOB refugium and a HOB coralife super skimmer. No it didn't crash I lost it in a flood.

[jason2459]

I feel like I might be coming off as picking a fight and sorry if I am. I just think that there can still be some very good applications for many of these things and some still love to use them successfully.