Judgement Call on a sick fish

[E_rock]

I have a Scopas tang with ich. And I am not sure what I should do next.

I made a nub mistake and did not qt my fish.
I have had this tang for a few months. And first started showing signs of ich about 10 days ago when I added a squirlfish. Some days he will get better. And some days he looks like hes about to die. However the behavior is still as it was when he was healthy. Swims fine and eats everything I put in the tank. So far I have increased feedings and at first it was helping, but now it looks like he wont be able to fight it off on his own. Today is the first days that his fins are starting to deteriorate.

I went to ARC and I was told to dip him in dechlorinated tap water for 15 mins. As an attempt to "burst" the visible ich. Anyone every attempt this?

If I need to I have a spare 20 gallon and equipment I could throw together.

Hes only a $30 fish, so I am not super worried about losing him. But he is also my first tang I ever had. And would like the experience of threating him.
Other tank mates are clowns, and chromis. And I am worried about getting the other fish sick

[block head]

Tough lesson. Tmz will hopefully chime in. Tank transfer method would-be my first choice.

[tmz]

Ich( crytocaryon irritans) will stay in a tank for years. Even fish without obvious symptoms that may have developeda partial immunity likely have it in the soft tissues of their gills , nostrils and mouth. It can breakout and ovrwhelm the fish any time and will usually attack new specimens.
I don't think a freshwater dip will help much. Most of the ich at the fish is embedded. May of the spots you see are exit wounds.

All the fish in your tank need qt and treatment and your tank needs to be fishless for 72 days to be rid of it. Otherwise, you'll be keeping a tank with ich in it.

Treatment options are: copper, hyposalinty or the tank transfer method.
I prefer the tank transfer method. If the fish to be treated is heavily infested a fromalin bath may offer some relief before beginning one of the other three. Hikari Ich x is a frormalain product they have at ARC.

This thread has details for acclimation, quarantine and treatment:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...and+quarantine

[E_rock]

okay couple of questions. Should I do this with all my fish? or just the tang? I have 3 larger chromis, 2 tomato clowns, 1 long jaw squirlfish would a 10 gallon be big enough or would I be better off using the 20?

Do I do this with my snails too? And are corals affected by ich?

[Foody]

Please help a newbie understand. What do you mean by qt, as in "I made a nub mistake and did not qt my fish?" What is/was the mistake (so perhaps I won't make it in the future).

[tmz]

No ,only fish are effected by ich. It needs a fish to eat to survie. However the cysts can remain alive for 72 days without "hatching.

Yes all fish need to be treated. The 20 g might be big enough and monitor ammonia carefully. for tank transfer you need at least two tanks or a tank and a bin or something.

Foody ,Qt means qauantine tank. All new fish should be quarantined and treated preventatively for crytocaryon irritans to keep it out of the tank to egin with. It's a very tough process to get rid of it once it's there.

[E_rock]

ugh decisions decisions. Debating weather or not its worth it to set this up and qt all the fish for so long we the tank is fallow (i think that is the right word).
Not sure if its the right "moral" thing to do. But I am think about possibly trading/giving the fish to the LFS. And just start over with the fish stocking and doing it right from the start. I wasn't super happy with some of my fish choices.

Correct me if I am wrong but could I still use this time to add more coral and inverts?

Ps: Sorry I am sure you have been asked all these same questions a thousand times before. The help is appreciated. I am not sure how I can give back to the forum.

[block head]

Ich is in you re display. Unless you break the parasite cycle, you will continue to have issues. I'd take the time to formulate a qt plan of some sort. It doesn't need to be costly or elaborate. Nothing wrong with taking some time to regroup or rehome fish imo.

[PCKRAJ]

Eric,

Wouldn't the fish you take to the LFS be infected?

I've often wondered about that; if LFS treat fish they take in on trade. I traded in an eel once, they put it in tank - and before I left the store someone came in and bought it.

So if I understand Tom correctly, you should not just qt a fish, but you should also treat it before putting in your main tank? And what and where do you get the treatment stuff?

[Jacwil]

Carol, Tom posted this up last month..good stuff!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2185929

[E_rock]

Yes but sadly I see fish with ich at the lfs more often than not.

Looking into hyposalinity treatment. I like the principal of doing the tank transfor method but to make it work you really need 3 tanks. And I really don't have room for this. But hypo from the sound of it can be done with less space. And I could probably swing setting up an extra 20 gallon tank.

[Foody]

I never gave any of this much thought. I have one tank (30 gal) and at this time no other options for additional reservoirs. I've never seen evidence of ich on my tank but I've never pre-treated any of my fish either. Is there any actions I can take now (in the one tank I have) as preventative before any issues occur?

[Foody]

And another question... The article referenced before requires a minimum of 3 separate aquariums (1 display and 2 qt). The orig

[Foody]

Oops... The original thread talked about a noob mistake of not qting the new fish. Is it possible to effectively qt with only 2 tanks (1 display and 1 qt)?

[Bluephish13]

seems like a bit overkill.

I did not think saltwater ich was as big a killer like freshwater ich is.
MAYBE I AM WRONG

I then have had it in my tank for 6 yrs and never lost a fish to it. My dori had it twice in the past 5-6 years never lasting more than a week. Once when first introduced, and once recently due to a diet issue i believe. No other fish in my tank ever showed visible symptoms.

I always thought just feed them well, use fresh garlic if it pops up, and a otherwise healthy fish will fight it off.

So I have had it for 6 yrs, it only came out twice, and only showed on the tang.

I know i should have QT so i am not talking you out of it, cause it is the right thing to do. I just bet a lot of people also have crypto hiding in their tanks.

If the fish was fine for months then showed symptoms i would look for environmental factors(stress) that brought on the outbreak.

TMZ is def the man when it comes to info on this stuff so go with him. Just thought i would add my experience with it.

I have thought about catching all my fish and cramming them in a small QT but that just always sounded to be more stressful in the end.

TMZ real question, do fish live with ich and no symptoms in the wild? Will all wild fish carry it? I understand that in a closed system its probably more of a issue of spreading to other fish. If your keeping a healthy stress free environment for your fish is it really a huge concern? If fish are stressed wont they just develop something else in the long run.

I mean what is the chances of a otherwise healthy fish just developing a killer ich out break out of the blue, And spreading it to all the other healthy fish.

[E_rock]

Trying to weigh all my options here. Would two ten gallons work for the transfor part. And could I use a 20 for the long term qt

Sorry foody I can't answer your questions.

And I was debating just hoping it would fight it off, but my tank is still young and I only have a handful of fish so I fiqured it would be easier to deal with it now than later.

[Bluephish13]

for sure if you have the chance in a new tank def start off right then no need to worry later on.

[albano]

Originally Posted by E_rock

I made a nub mistake and did not qt my fish.
I have had this tang for a few months. And first started showing signs of ich about 10 days ago when I added a squirlfish.

sounds like you added the ick when the Squirrel went in!...regardless, the whole tank should now be 'treated'!

Originally Posted by E_rock

Hes only a $30 fish, so I am not super worried about losing him.

WRONG answer!

[E_rock]

Easy now. All that was ment by that was I would be freaking out alot more if he was a $200 purple tang.
I have been sitting here doing research for hours trying to decide which method would be best for my tank in the long run.

[E_rock]

I think I got the go for the tank transfor method.

I understand you have to be extra careful not transfor any of the water while moving the fish so what's the best way actualy move the fish? Nets?

Also what's the best way to seed my qt tank? Do I start completely over in the qt with out seeding with anything from my dt knowing there's ich in there?

[SquidwardTentacles]

Years ago I had a tang that got ick. I fed him raw garlic sliced very fine. It cleared up in two days.

[jeremyjoslin]

Originally Posted by SquidwardTentacles

Years ago I had a tang that got ick. I fed him raw garlic sliced very fine. It cleared up in two days.

It looks like it cleared it up....

[jeremyjoslin]

Eric,

Same thing happened to me a few years ago except that I was working a long string of 12 hour days (and had a newborn at home) and couldn't tend to the tank when I saw the signs first starting. Next thing I knew the whole tank was crashed. It's taken 2 years to get back into the hobby.

You're asking the right questions....

[SquidwardTentacles]

Originally Posted by jeremyjoslin

It looks like it cleared it up....

I had the Purple for twelve (12) more years and recently sold it happy & healthy when I broke down my 125. You can be argumentative but I have facts...

[tmz]

Seriously,
Crytocaryon kills fish. It can't get in your tank unless you put it there. qaurantining fish and pre treating them prevents it.
It kills many, many ,way too many healthy fish and weak fish. Doesn't really matter much.
There are no effective in reef tank remedies: not garlic;not uv; not extra vitamins; not cinamon; not ginger;, not various commercial concoctions; not cleaner shrimp; not ozone; not potato chips,: not chocolate ice cream;not chicken soup ; nothing.

The choice is clear run a tank with ich or without . In between is just wishful thinking.

After 5 t o10 days or so a fish surviving intial infestaion often appears better because the parasite has had it's fill of fish and leaves to encyst and reproduce itself by 1 or 2 hundred fold for the second attack ,third attack and so on. Here's the math: 1 goes to 200, 200 goes to 40,000, 40000 goes to 8 million Just 3 life cycles or about 6 weeks with food supply limiting that of course. It stops when the fish die or in the sea or tank transfer method just move on. Once it breaks out of the cysts it has only a day to find fish to eat it strarves to death.

Fish sometimes develop partial immunity and resist seond and third attacks. The immunity isn't from a lack of stress or special foods , it's from exposure to the parasite in the first place. The immunity is to the particular strain of ich, there are thousands at least, and the immunity is only partial. Parsites still infest the tender tissue of the gills, nostiils and mouth often unseen and survive in the tank at lower levels just waiting for a non immune fish to be introduced or a minor stress event to occur leaving the partially immune fish more vulnerable. A single strain of ich without cross fertilization from other strains can keep going for years and breakout in a massive infestation at any time.