Reef Central Online Community
Premium Aquatics

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Responsible Reefkeeping
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 11/30/2012, 02:15 PM   #1
marinemike01
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4
NOAA proposes 66 reef building coral on endangered list

I was saw this on the web and might interest all of us the care about our hobby / passion. Here is the link.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/stories/2012/11/82corals.html

Click on the list of 66 species and it will surprise you what types of coral is on it.
Here is another link explain what will happen if it is passed and these species are place on the endangered / threaten list.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/stories/201...ss_release.pdf

Just something all of us "reefers" might want to think about.

Mike


marinemike01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 06:37 AM   #2
atreis
Registered Member
 
atreis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Yellow Springs, OH
Posts: 942
Most of these are particularly easy to frag. There's no reason or need to collect them from the wild, nor any reason to raise alarm in the hobby.


__________________
reef tank up since 8/2009. Previous tank up since 4/2004, taken down in 2007.

Current Tank Info: custom 100g reef, custom sump
atreis is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 07:28 AM   #3
billsreef
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
billsreef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami
Posts: 36,538
No surprises there. If anything, there will be more impacts to researchers working on some of those corals, rather than on the hobby. At the same time such listings might raise the level of importance for such research, it also hampers the research with increased permitting difficulties.


__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)

Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.
billsreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 09:55 AM   #4
DrPat
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Long Island,New York
Posts: 162
I hope this will show how the hobby has increased coral farming which alleveates collecting wild corals and spurs economic developement in otherwise poor island nations.
The problem will arise if NOAA will not distingush between wild collected and farmed corals. Once they go down the path of listing corals more and more will be placed on the list in future years. we need to express to NOAA thru there website the green value of farmed corals and the economic impact that prohibition would cause


__________________
Experience is the product of mistakes
Its better to have lost one fish in quarantine than all the fish in the display tank!
reef tanks are my heroin and I am a junkie.

Current Tank Info: 480 gallon system 180 display tank recently reset,plumbed to a 110 fuge and another 110 display 2 30 gallon resorvoirs and sump. reseach room presenlty with 6 20 gal 6 29 gal 1 50 gal, tank and growing , culturing micro algae,copepods,rotifers
DrPat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 10:05 AM   #5
DrPat
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Long Island,New York
Posts: 162
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/stories/2012/11/82corals.html
heres the link to the page where you can submit a letter or attend a meeting


__________________
Experience is the product of mistakes
Its better to have lost one fish in quarantine than all the fish in the display tank!
reef tanks are my heroin and I am a junkie.

Current Tank Info: 480 gallon system 180 display tank recently reset,plumbed to a 110 fuge and another 110 display 2 30 gallon resorvoirs and sump. reseach room presenlty with 6 20 gal 6 29 gal 1 50 gal, tank and growing , culturing micro algae,copepods,rotifers
DrPat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 06:50 PM   #6
Revmedia
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPat View Post
I hope this will show how the hobby has increased coral farming which alleveates collecting wild corals and spurs economic developement in otherwise poor island nations.
The problem will arise if NOAA will not distingush between wild collected and farmed corals. Once they go down the path of listing corals more and more will be placed on the list in future years. we need to express to NOAA thru there website the green value of farmed corals and the economic impact that prohibition would cause
This is what I'm worried about. Everyone just assumes there will be a clear differentiation between wild caught and captive bred. Even if there is, the onus will be on you to prove the frags you have are captive specimens. I'm not saying our coral reefs shouldn't be protected, of course they should be.

What I am saying is we need to let our voices be heard so that this gets done in the right way, and moves this industry ahead instead of setting it back.


Revmedia is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 10:56 PM   #7
Ninong
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 3,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPat View Post
I hope this will show how the hobby has increased coral farming which alleveates collecting wild corals and spurs economic developement in otherwise poor island nations.
The problem will arise if NOAA will not distingush between wild collected and farmed corals. Once they go down the path of listing corals more and more will be placed on the list in future years. we need to express to NOAA thru there website the green value of farmed corals and the economic impact that prohibition would cause
Why would they need to distinguish between wild-collected and farmed corals? Has the ESA ever made a distintinction between wild-collected and captive-raised animals before? I'm just asking because I don't think it makes any difference.

Won't it be illegal to even possess an animal listed as endangered, much less try to take it with you across state lines or trade it or sell it. Is private captive breeding allowed without a permit of some sort? I believe they intend to list two Acropora species as endangered. I'm talking about two Indo-Pacific species (A. lokani and A. jacquelinae), not the two Caribbean species (A. palmata and A. cervicornis) that they intend to move from threatened to endangered because all Caribbean stonies are off limits to us anyway and have been for years.

So who's going to teach all the customs guys how to recognize one Acropora species from another? And if maricultured corals would somehow be granted an exception, how are the customs guys going to tell if a coral is wild collected or maricultured?

There is a big difference between threatened status and endangered status as it applies to animals and I'm just wondering how this will affect the hobby if any of the Indo-Pacific corals are listed as endangered, much less two Acropora species that are currently popular in the hobby. And how would you prove to the ESA police that the endangered species in your tank has been there for years?

I remember when we got into something similar with California back when they wanted to make ALL species of Caulerpa illegal just because C. taxifolia (the mutant variant released by the Monaco Aquarium into the Mediterranean) was a threat and had already been discovered near San Diego. Eventually the bill was changed so that not all Caulerpa species were banned. The state's initial reasoning was that it would be impossible for their inspectors to tell the difference between the various species so it would be better to just ban the whole genus. Their so-called science officer at the time was a woman who was openly opposed to the reefkeeping hobby and didn't think any corals or saltwater fishes should be kept in captivity at all.

I guess I need to read up on the ESA to figure out if it's even legal to possess and "endangered" species. I don't think it is.




__________________
Ninong
Ninong is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 11:06 PM   #8
Ninong
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 3,376
Branching frogspawn (Euphyllia paradivisa) is another Indo-Pacific stony coral that they intend to list as endangered.


__________________
Ninong
Ninong is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/01/2012, 11:16 PM   #9
Ninong
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 3,376
I guess I should just list all seven of the Indo-Pacific stony corals that they intend to list as endangered:
Acropora lokani, A. jacquelineae, A. rudis, Millepora faveolata, Pocillopora elegans, Anacropora spinosa, Euphyllia paradivisa.
Plus another 52 species (including 19 Acropora spp. and 7 Montipora spp.) that are slated to become threatened.


__________________
Ninong
Ninong is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/02/2012, 06:49 AM   #10
elegance coral
They call me EC
 
elegance coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: central Florida
Posts: 6,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by atreis View Post
Most of these are particularly easy to frag. There's no reason or need to collect them from the wild, nor any reason to raise alarm in the hobby.
This is a huge cause for alarm in the hobby.

Once a species gets listed as threatened, or endangered, they can outlaw ALL trade in that species. It doesn't matter if that species is grown in captivity or not.

This raises some serious questions for our hobby.
Am I forced to euthanize the Ephyllia that's outgrowing my tank?
What happens to companies like ORA, or all the small "Mom and Pop" coral farmers around the country? Take away one or two of their big money makers, and this could force them out of business. Crippling these companies could increase pressure on other wild species like anemonefish, or corals that haven't made it on the list yet, but were once propagated by these companies.

I think we can all see that our coral reefs are in trouble, and most of us believe we need to do something. This isn't the answer though. It has been shown over, and over, and over again that through proper management, we can have the best of both worlds. Australia is a great example of this. By limiting the areas of collection, and the numbers being collect, Australia is able to utilize their natural resources to help feed their people, without raping the environment in the process.

Just my two cents
EC


__________________
"Most of the failures with marine aquaria are due to lack of knowledge of the biological processes that occur in the aquarium." Martin A. Moe, Jr.
"A scientist seeks the truth, wherever that may lead. A believer already knows the truth, and cannot be swayed no matter how compelling the evidence."

Current Tank Info: I'm trying to see how many tanks will fit in my house before the wife loses it.
elegance coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/02/2012, 11:23 AM   #11
Ninong
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 3,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPat View Post
I hope this will show how the hobby has increased coral farming which alleveates collecting wild corals and spurs economic developement in otherwise poor island nations.
The problem will arise if NOAA will not distingush between wild collected and farmed corals. Once they go down the path of listing corals more and more will be placed on the list in future years. we need to express to NOAA thru there website the green value of farmed corals and the economic impact that prohibition would cause
Won't all trade be halted in a species once it is listed as endangered? Is there an exemption for farmed corals and, if so, does it extend to the importation of farmed corals?

The reason I ask is because I can't find anything in the ESA that would permit the import or export of any species listed as endangered. I found an exemption for personal ownership of a fish or wildlife species held in captivity on the date such species was listed as endangered, provided such holding and any subsequent holding or use of the fish or wildlife was not in the course of a commercial activity.

So it appears to me that the exemption would not apply to commercial trade after the date the species is added to the endangered list. Also, the law requires a rebuttable presumption that the fish or wildlife in your possession is not entitled to the exemption, so that means you are required to have documentation available for inspection upon demand to rebutt their presumption if you want to keep your endangered species that you claim you had in your possession prior to its listing as endangered.

This is how I'm reading the ESA, so please correct me if I'm wrong. After a species is listed as endangered, it is illegal to possess that species unless you can prove that you had it in your possession prior to the date it was added as endangered and provided it was not in your possession as part of any commercial activity.

ESA, Section 9


__________________
Ninong
Ninong is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/02/2012, 12:00 PM   #12
elegance coral
They call me EC
 
elegance coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: central Florida
Posts: 6,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninong View Post
Won't all trade be halted in a species once it is listed as endangered? Is there an exemption for farmed corals and, if so, does it extend to the importation of farmed corals?

The reason I ask is because I can't find anything in the ESA that would permit the import or export of any species listed as endangered. I found an exemption for personal ownership of a fish or wildlife species held in captivity on the date such species was listed as endangered, provided such holding and any subsequent holding or use of the fish or wildlife was not in the course of a commercial activity.

So it appears to me that the exemption would not apply to commercial trade after the date the species is added to the endangered list. Also, the law requires a rebuttable presumption that the fish or wildlife in your possession is not entitled to the exemption, so that means you are required to have documentation available for inspection upon demand to rebutt their presumption if you want to keep your endangered species that you claim you had in your possession prior to its listing as endangered.

This is how I'm reading the ESA, so please correct me if I'm wrong. After a species is listed as endangered, it is illegal to possess that species unless you can prove that you had it in your possession prior to the date it was added as endangered and provided it was not in your possession as part of any commercial activity.

ESA, Section 9

That's the way I understand it as well.
My question is, what do we do with the corals we have now? They all grow and/or reproduce. It's illegal to kill an endangered species. It's illegal to sell or trade them. When an Acropora or Euphyllia becomes to large for us to care for, what do we do????? In a few years time, my tank will be busting at the seams. No matter what I do at that point, I will be forced to break the law.


__________________
"Most of the failures with marine aquaria are due to lack of knowledge of the biological processes that occur in the aquarium." Martin A. Moe, Jr.
"A scientist seeks the truth, wherever that may lead. A believer already knows the truth, and cannot be swayed no matter how compelling the evidence."

Current Tank Info: I'm trying to see how many tanks will fit in my house before the wife loses it.
elegance coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/02/2012, 07:21 PM   #13
arhyne
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 20
ESA Classification:

Threatened: Agency can allow or disallow trade or other activities. They have a little wiggle room.

Endangered: Trade is prohibited. There is no wiggle room.


'Aquaculture' or 'Wild' does it matter? NO. If something is listed as endangered source does not matter.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/permits/esa_permits.htm

"Individuals planning to conduct any activity resulting in the "take" of an endangered or threatened species, whether or not deliberate, must possess a permit to perform that activity."


arhyne is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/06/2012, 03:02 PM   #14
yamaha16bw
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 57
When will this go into effect if they do end up putting all of these on the endangered list?

I can really see this effecting the hobby in a big way. I myself think that people who "farm" coral would be helping the cause and this sounds like it will make that illegal which doesnt make since to me if so many people do with with success.


yamaha16bw is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/06/2012, 03:18 PM   #15
trinity1012
sps addict
 
trinity1012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: spokane,wa
Posts: 496
they should give us reefer's these endagered corals.we could grow them into colonies, ship them back to noaa and they can replenish the natural reefs.
in my mind seems like an excellet oppertunity to save what corals are in harms way.

like stated at the bottom of post#12 "what do we do with corals when they get to big" keep a small frag to regrow again and again and send the overgrown colonie back to the noaa...like i said in my mind thats seems to be an excellent idea.



Last edited by trinity1012; 12/06/2012 at 03:28 PM.
trinity1012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/06/2012, 11:54 PM   #16
yamaha16bw
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 57
Hopefully ideas like that are being taken into consideration.


yamaha16bw is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/09/2012, 04:17 PM   #17
tripdad
Frustrated Stick Gardener
 
tripdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: near chicago,Ill.
Posts: 701
Comments Posted on NOAA Site!! It was easy to do, once you find the proposed documents just click on and the comment form comes up. I urge all to speak out in support of the aquaculture industry as we will most definetly need them in the future. I have spent my life in the automotive aftermarket and every few years some lawmaker writes a well intended piece of legislation without examining specific language and does not realize that they will, if passed into law, outlaw an entire industry that contributes MILLIONS of jobs to our economy. More often than not this is an oversight as they are rarely well versed in the ENTIRE ramifications. We have lobbied sucesfully to stop many of these laws thru awareness and education of those in the decision making process, but it takes many voices to be heard! There is no need for alarm but there is a need for action before a well intended piece of legislation destroys our support system of coral farmers and disributors. Please mention the positives we hobbyists as "coral farmers" on a small scale can provide, education, awareness, replenishment of wild stocks, etc. By aquaculturing our stocks is the only way to stop the removal of wild coral for all purposes, not just us reefers.


tripdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/09/2012, 05:28 PM   #18
trinity1012
sps addict
 
trinity1012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: spokane,wa
Posts: 496
i submited my comment to NOAA.i hope it does some good


trinity1012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/10/2012, 01:16 PM   #19
alton
Registered Member
 
alton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zuehl, Texas
Posts: 4,460
The following is a list of links for something very similar, although not a fish or coral but the beautiful Oryx. This what happens when the government gets involved, common sense goes out the window and like the one link talks about it comes down to what a judge thinks

http://www.petersenshunting.com/2012...oryx-in-texas/

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...ns-3453819.php

http://www.allaboutexotics.com/2010/...mpaign-update/


alton is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/20/2012, 11:08 PM   #20
tomservo
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 332
The worst part is that those in posession of species reclassified as endangered would be committing a crime if they were to frag it, they would not be allowed to shut the tank down either as that would result in the death of the animal. It can't be legally transferred either from what I can tell. You might be entitled to some sort of conservation effort, though! That is, if you can figure out some way to "prove" you had the coral all along - I thought we were entitled to be innocent until proven guilty, but I guess that was some other place.

Unfortunately I don't think NOAA have ANYTHING to do with this other than being the body that decides what is endangered or not. The problem is more likely with the endangered species act having no exemptions. It's probably just something that was not considered at the time; the possibility of the animal doing better in captivity than in the wild. Didn't this already happen with a lake full of african cichlids?


tomservo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/04/2013, 10:57 PM   #21
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,265
Blog Entries: 15
MASNA response by Murray Camp

http://www.masna.org/Portals/0/Blog...g%20v3.pdf


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/05/2013, 12:54 AM   #22
GroktheCube
Registered Member
 
GroktheCube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,063
I have no issue with severely limiting or even banning the wild collection of some corals. Making the transfer of aquacultured specimens illegal is positively ludicrous. The reef keeping hobby and coral aquaculture has done as much to advance our knowledge of these animals as scientific institutions.


GroktheCube is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/05/2013, 07:36 AM   #23
SpartaReef
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sparta, Wisconsin
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by elegance coral View Post
This is a huge cause for alarm in the hobby.

Once a species gets listed as threatened, or endangered, they can outlaw ALL trade in that species. It doesn't matter if that species is grown in captivity or not.

This raises some serious questions for our hobby.
Am I forced to euthanize the Ephyllia that's outgrowing my tank?
What happens to companies like ORA, or all the small "Mom and Pop" coral farmers around the country? Take away one or two of their big money makers, and this could force them out of business. Crippling these companies could increase pressure on other wild species like anemonefish, or corals that haven't made it on the list yet, but were once propagated by these companies.

I think we can all see that our coral reefs are in trouble, and most of us believe we need to do something. This isn't the answer though. It has been shown over, and over, and over again that through proper management, we can have the best of both worlds. Australia is a great example of this. By limiting the areas of collection, and the numbers being collect, Australia is able to utilize their natural resources to help feed their people, without raping the environment in the process.

Just my two cents
EC
As someone just getting into this hobby, I'm very concerned, both for the environment and from the stamping of the hobby and the jobs involved. It's about control, they just want to own you.


SpartaReef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/05/2013, 08:11 AM   #24
jg93
Registered Member
 
jg93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rockville, MD, USA
Posts: 194
Just to reiterate - this is a *huge* cause for concern to the 'hobby' as this is what this bill specifically aims at quashing. No one takes these corals for any other reason.

Good article on it here:

http://ht.ly/jM0hx

and here is a link to comment. It will take you all of 5 minutes.

http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitC...2010-0036-0469


__________________
JeffG

Current Tank Info: 75 Gallon Rimless mixed, 60 Gallon rimless cube Zoas & LPS
jg93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04/05/2013, 08:30 AM   #25
billsreef
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
billsreef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami
Posts: 36,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by jg93 View Post
and here is a link to comment. It will take you all of 5 minutes.

http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitC...2010-0036-0469
The period for public comments is over tomorrow, so if you want to be heard, make your comments to them now.


__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)

Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.
billsreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2022 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.