Dead Damsel and Cycling

sliggy382 · 01/02/2013, 04:45 AM

Would a dead damsel fish help cycle a new tank?
I always hear you can cycle a new tank with a shrimp from the grocery store by letting it rot in it.

Are any of these true?

fishman1069 · 01/02/2013, 05:02 AM

Yes and yes. You basically need something thats gonna break down and feed the tank ammonia to start your bacteria

cramideas · 01/02/2013, 05:10 AM

Yelp it will help get it going, not that you want the fish to die but if it happens it wont hurt the process.

BAGGERZ13 · 01/02/2013, 05:41 AM

A lot of people think it's cruel to the fish to put it in there and have it die just to cycle the tank. There are a few different ways to do it without having to use a fish...

heathlindner25 · 01/02/2013, 07:18 AM

I christen mine with alittle urine!

FTDelta · 01/02/2013, 07:40 AM

Raw uncooked shrimp works as well.

reeferstace · 01/02/2013, 10:09 AM

It is ethically wrong to cycle a tank with a live fish. Please use a different source for your nitrogenous waste.

cloak · 01/02/2013, 10:29 AM

If you don't want to use a piece of shrimp to cycle your tank, I'm sure your LFS would have no problem handing over a dead fish. They should be checking their tanks every morning for these.

wooden_reefer · 01/02/2013, 10:36 AM

I won't use dead whole fish as it make carry some parasite or undesirable bacteria esp inside the digestive tract of fish died from diseases.

Best protein source for decade is a shrimp, or some fish flesh from a large fish, I tend to think.

wooden_reefer · 01/02/2013, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heathlindner25

I christen mine with alittle urine!

The disadvantage of urine is quantity of ammonia unknown.

If I plan to do a 100% water change and cycle in a small container, I just urinate in it. Nitrite could be over 30 ppm, I don't care.

But if you plan to retain the water you cycle with, a known amount of ammonia is better. You won't "age" the water excessively. Just enough one or two shots of ammonia well timed is best.

sponger0 · 01/02/2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAGGERZ13

A lot of people think it's cruel to the fish to put it in there and have it die just to cycle the tank. There are a few different ways to do it without having to use a fish...

Quote:

Originally Posted by reeferstace

It is ethically wrong to cycle a tank with a live fish. Please use a different source for your nitrogenous waste.

The OP didnt say use a fish and kill it. He said use a dead fish. I think you read that wrong.

Yeah you read that wrong too lmao

Sk8r · 01/02/2013, 11:07 AM

You don't need ANYTHING. the dieoff in your live rock is completely sufficient. REmember what you're encouraging is microscopic: you won't see it. If you can't stand adding nothing at all, add enough flake fishfood daily to feed one guppy (one flake), and STILL expect a cycle of 4-8 weeks. You simply cannot get bacteria to propagate clear to the core of the rock in less time than that, and if you rush it, you can crash the tank.

wooden_reefer · 01/02/2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

You don't need ANYTHING. the dieoff in your live rock is completely sufficient. REmember what you're encouraging is microscopic: you won't see it. If you can't stand adding nothing at all, add enough flake fishfood daily to feed one guppy (one flake), and STILL expect a cycle of 4-8 weeks. You simply cannot get bacteria to propagate clear to the core of the rock in less time than that, and if you rush it, you can crash the tank.

There may or may not be enough dieoff. If the rock had been in the LFS submerged for a week before you bought it and the decay had happened at the LFS, there will be very little ammonia.

If the tank stinks very much you can be sure enough decay is happening; otherwise, there may well not be enough ammonia to cycle esp for many fish.

Plus, the whole idea of using decay from dead lives from LR to cycle is senseless; there are alternatives.

wooden_reefer · 01/02/2013, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

You don't need ANYTHING. the dieoff in your live rock is completely sufficient. REmember what you're encouraging is microscopic: you won't see it. If you can't stand adding nothing at all, add enough flake fishfood daily to feed one guppy (one flake), and STILL expect a cycle of 4-8 weeks. You simply cannot get bacteria to propagate clear to the core of the rock in less time than that, and if you rush it, you can crash the tank.

Nitrification is highly aerobic so only the sites near the more oxygenated areas will nitrification bacteria live.

"bacteria propagating to the core of LR" is not a part of cycling.

Cycling is nitrification only, not denitrification. Such is the definition and also has a reason. This is NOT to say that denitrification is not important, it is in the longer term.

You can introduce some fish when nitrification is complete, even if you have a basically reef tank in mind, even when denitrification is not yet well established.

The comprehesive ecological perspective has more bearing on long term maintenance.

If your interest is a reef tanlk with only a few small fish, you may consider long term ecological balance as more pressing.

Having nitrification and some livestock before denitrification is robust will not crash a tank. I 'd agree that if your interest is a reef tank you should not add too much livestock quickly.

wooden_reefer · 01/02/2013, 12:38 PM

In this hobby, it can be a mental handicap to always think of comprehesive ecological balance, nitrification and denitrification.

This is true especially in QT of fish. Nitrate is harmless to fish at concentration commonly encountered. There is much utility in nitrification alone without denitrification. Thus, LR is a poor medium of filtration in QT.

One should not think of ecology in a QT.

In a DT, ecology is of course of great long term significance, but one also should consider the timing of the correctness of the comprehesive ecological perspective.

MrTuskfish · 01/02/2013, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

In this hobby, it can be a mental handicap to always think of comprehesive ecological balance, nitrification and denitrification.

This is true especially in QT of fish. Nitrate is harmless to fish at concentration commonly encountered. There is much utility in nitrification alone without denitrification. Thus, LR is a poor medium of filtration in QT.

One should not think of ecology in a QT.

In a DT, ecology is of course of great long term significance, but one also should consider the timing of the correctness of the comprehesive ecological perspective.

Damn! That's just what i was going to say!

sliggy382 · 01/02/2013, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

The OP didnt say use a fish and kill it. He said use a dead fish. I think you read that wrong.

Yeah you read that wrong too lmao

Thanks Sponger--you saved me the time of saying that LOL
As I stated, the fish was dead already; I didn't kill it.

reeferstace · 01/02/2013, 07:25 PM

My apologies to the OP since I misinterpreted what was said. Sorry.

CoasterOfLuv · 01/02/2013, 07:26 PM

I had both my 75 and my 30 running for a week before I put a Damsel in which is still pretty soon and neither died. You're tank would IMO have to be very unprepared to kill a damsel and thats kinda cruel

sleepydoc · 01/02/2013, 08:55 PM

+1 on using another source besides the damsel. it would certainly work, but the last thing you want to do is introduce velvet or some other nasty disease.

sliggy382 · 01/03/2013, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reeferstace

My apologies to the OP since I misinterpreted what was said. Sorry.

No worries, I appreciate the input

sliggy382 · 01/03/2013, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoasterOfLuv

I had both my 75 and my 30 running for a week before I put a Damsel in which is still pretty soon and neither died. You're tank would IMO have to be very unprepared to kill a damsel and thats kinda cruel

I or my tank didn't kill it.

When I purchased it from the LPS I noticed it wasn't swimming right in the bag when I got to the checkout. I think when they got it from the tank at the LPS, they must have squished it or something. It was dead by the time I got home. I didn't say anything to the employees, I just took it home hoping it would survive. I probably should have just gotten another one before I paid for it.

I was hoping for the best though... :?

01/02/2013, 04:45 AM	#1
sliggy382 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 89	Dead Damsel and Cycling Would a dead damsel fish help cycle a new tank? I always hear you can cycle a new tank with a shrimp from the grocery store by letting it rot in it. Are any of these true?

01/02/2013, 05:41 AM	#4
BAGGERZ13 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Harford County MD Posts: 316	A lot of people think it's cruel to the fish to put it in there and have it die just to cycle the tank. There are a few different ways to do it without having to use a fish... __________________ Tank Setup: RSM 130D Current Tank Info: Red Sea Max 130D

01/02/2013, 10:09 AM	#7
reeferstace Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Metro Atlanta Posts: 1,012	It is ethically wrong to cycle a tank with a live fish. Please use a different source for your nitrogenous waste. __________________ Stacy Membership Coordinator, Atlanta Reef Club, check us out! 300g reef in the making! Current Tank Info: 300g reef, 150g turtle, 40g marine planted tank, 55 g freshwater

01/02/2013, 10:29 AM	#8
cloak Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Stockton, CA Posts: 7,796	If you don't want to use a piece of shrimp to cycle your tank, I'm sure your LFS would have no problem handing over a dead fish. They should be checking their tanks every morning for these. __________________ "The field mouse is fast, but the owl can see at night." Current Tank Info: 20 gallon DT, 10 gallon sump, 175 watt Hamilton 20K bulb, two 24 watt T5 actinics, Eshopps PSK-75 skimmer, mixed reef

01/02/2013, 11:07 AM	#12
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 23,307 Blog Entries: 7	You don't need ANYTHING. the dieoff in your live rock is completely sufficient. REmember what you're encouraging is microscopic: you won't see it. If you can't stand adding nothing at all, add enough flake fishfood daily to feed one guppy (one flake), and STILL expect a cycle of 4-8 weeks. You simply cannot get bacteria to propagate clear to the core of the rock in less time than that, and if you rush it, you can crash the tank. __________________ Sk8r "Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale, not meq/l; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp abt 80, nitrate/ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal will not rise if mg is low. Alk reading far more imp't than PH; WATER QUALITY MATTERS!" "If anything CAN go wrong, it will, and at the worst possible moment."---St. Murphy. "For beginners---nothing good happens fast on an ice rink or in a fish tank." Current Tank Info: 105g, kalk, 250mh 10000; AquaCEV120; Iwaki 100, bsemnt sump/fuge; hermits, snails, mandy, scooter, blue chromis, azure damsel, starry & tailspot blennies, firefish, royal gramma, redstripe goby, YWG pair, lps;

01/02/2013, 05:02 AM	#2
fishman1069 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: sound beach,NY Posts: 62	Yes and yes. You basically need something thats gonna break down and feed the tank ammonia to start your bacteria

01/02/2013, 05:10 AM	#3
cramideas Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Hurricane WV Posts: 70	Yelp it will help get it going, not that you want the fish to die but if it happens it wont hurt the process.

01/02/2013, 07:18 AM	#5
heathlindner25 Registered Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: flowery branch georgia Posts: 158	I christen mine with alittle urine!

01/02/2013, 07:40 AM	#6
FTDelta Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Central NY Posts: 354	Raw uncooked shrimp works as well.

01/02/2013, 10:36 AM	#9
wooden_reefer Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,069	I won't use dead whole fish as it make carry some parasite or undesirable bacteria esp inside the digestive tract of fish died from diseases. Best protein source for decade is a shrimp, or some fish flesh from a large fish, I tend to think.

01/02/2013, 12:38 PM	#15
wooden_reefer Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,069	In this hobby, it can be a mental handicap to always think of comprehesive ecological balance, nitrification and denitrification. This is true especially in QT of fish. Nitrate is harmless to fish at concentration commonly encountered. There is much utility in nitrification alone without denitrification. Thus, LR is a poor medium of filtration in QT. One should not think of ecology in a QT. In a DT, ecology is of course of great long term significance, but one also should consider the timing of the correctness of the comprehesive ecological perspective.

01/02/2013, 07:25 PM	#18
reeferstace Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Metro Atlanta Posts: 1,012	My apologies to the OP since I misinterpreted what was said. Sorry. __________________ Stacy Membership Coordinator, Atlanta Reef Club, check us out! 300g reef in the making! Current Tank Info: 300g reef, 150g turtle, 40g marine planted tank, 55 g freshwater

01/02/2013, 07:26 PM	#19
CoasterOfLuv Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: S.W Florida Posts: 14	I had both my 75 and my 30 running for a week before I put a Damsel in which is still pretty soon and neither died. You're tank would IMO have to be very unprepared to kill a damsel and thats kinda cruel

01/02/2013, 08:55 PM	#20
sleepydoc Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 1,110	+1 on using another source besides the damsel. it would certainly work, but the last thing you want to do is introduce velvet or some other nasty disease. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 120 gal corner flow, 40 gal sump, Octopus XS200 skimmer, OTP 3000 return, RO/DI water. T5 lighting