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Old 03/07/2013, 05:37 AM   #101
The Cardinal
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Interesting read.

It would be great if someone with a stable tank would alter the KH over a period of around 4 weeks and document possible changes in color. For example from 8 up to 10 (and then back again). All other parameters kept unchanged as far as possible. Anyone up for the task ?

In my experience dosing iron will intensify the green coloration in many sps species.


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Old 03/07/2013, 01:49 PM   #102
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Interesting read.

It would be great if someone with a stable tank would alter the KH over a period of around 4 weeks and document possible changes in color. For example from 8 up to 10 (and then back again). All other parameters kept unchanged as far as possible. Anyone up for the task ?

In my experience dosing iron will intensify the green coloration in many sps species.
having done this before I can tell you that I get best colors when I maintain my Alk level below 8 with par readings from my LEDs around 225 ( I take my par reading @ 12" below water surface ) I've tried par levels of 500 @ peek daylight miday but found lower to be better


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Old 03/29/2013, 02:44 AM   #103
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Can the earlier posters post updates as to how their corals are doing? -what actions did they do that led to improved coloration or less paleness in their sps?


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Old 03/31/2013, 05:06 PM   #104
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Interesting


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Old 04/01/2013, 02:58 AM   #105
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Hi there

I did go from 10 to 8 in alkalinity.

All other parameters kept stable.

Salt 1,028
Ph 8,0-8,2
No3 0,5
Po4 <0,03
Temp 24-26
Ca now stabil at 440
Mg 1450

It did do a lot for the colors, but even more with growthrate and PE on my SPS.

It took a while for me to finetune the system(ca went to 480) but I have "found" my KH values :-)
Very happy to see this huge change, for such small effort.....

So thank you very much Kevinsquint and RC - this was better and cheaper than new products from company X

Peder


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Old 04/01/2013, 08:47 AM   #106
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I see alot of you are claiming extremely low nitrate and phosphate levels. Im telling you now if you are using Salifert kits to test both, you are wasting your time. Nitrates almost always test to 0 and the P04 kit is way off.
IMO P04 hanna checker for phosphate and a red sea nitrate test kit are best...most accurate. Just my 2 cheap cents.


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Old 04/02/2013, 02:55 PM   #107
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I think a lot of people are going to have to make changes in their systems to include more nutrients in the water column if they want to run these extreme LED systems that are far brighter than MH systems ever were. I have been experimenting w/ LED - VHO-MH comparisons on my frag tanks. All tanks have a PAR at the surface of ~ 55 and are linked so nutrient levels are basically the same on all three tanks. I run middle of the road on NO3 < .25 and PO4 <.02 w/ a margin of error on both at .02 as I utilize RS Pro testing equipment. So levels could be at times as high as .04 or as low as ~ 0.0, but I believe the avg to be as stated.

I was most interested in growth rates and what I have found is for growth nothing beats MH @ 6500kw, and the jury is still out for best coloration. I have seen nothing to indicate that any of the 3 types of lighting source proved to have any effect on color growth. Not to be confused w/ viewing the corals. But in setting up the system, I did have to initially reduce the intensity of the LED source as it initially produced nearly 70PAR at the surface and hurt the corals coming off the MH system. Now that everything has been in equilibrium for 3 months I will also begin to look at colors and report back to thread in the future after making some small changes in PAR equal to 5 PAR +/- while holding nutrient levels = .


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Old 04/02/2013, 03:05 PM   #108
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are we talking about inorganic nutrient levels or organic nutrient levels?

i have no doubt that the more light one puts over a tank the more organically bound phosphates need to be added. i do not think the inorganic phosphates levels matter as long as they are within oligotrophic levels. a PO4 level of 0.02 is still way above the oligotrophic level of 0.009ppm.

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Old 04/03/2013, 09:22 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgfast View Post
having done this before I can tell you that I get best colors when I maintain my Alk level below 8 with par readings from my LEDs around 225 ( I take my par reading @ 12" below water surface ) I've tried par levels of 500 @ peek daylight miday but found lower to be better
Love to see some pictures of the color in your tank.


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Old 04/03/2013, 09:31 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by coralsnaked View Post
I think a lot of people are going to have to make changes in their systems to include more nutrients in the water column if they want to run these extreme LED systems that are far brighter than MH systems ever were. I have been experimenting w/ LED - VHO-MH comparisons on my frag tanks. All tanks have a PAR at the surface of ~ 55 and are linked so nutrient levels are basically the same on all three tanks. I run middle of the road on NO3 < .25 and PO4 <.02 w/ a margin of error on both at .02 as I utilize RS Pro testing equipment. So levels could be at times as high as .04 or as low as ~ 0.0, but I believe the avg to be as stated.

I was most interested in growth rates and what I have found is for growth nothing beats MH @ 6500kw,


Your observations are in direct opposition to actual research that has been published so if you have any photo evidence to support this statement I would be most interested.

Also, how do you define LEDs as being "brighter". What meter did you use? Is it calibrated for LEDs? The problem is that the primary meter on the market is an Apogee, and that particular manufacturer in no way envisioned the advent of LEDs and has built their meters using a smoothing algorithm that anticipates sunlight or fluorescent light. LED light is not properly measured. Plus we have little knowledge on what happens when we flood corals with specific wavelengths instead of a broad spectrum of wavelengths.

My primary point here is that I feel like you are making comments with a sense of authority that are in no way yet explained in scientific literature. You may very well be right, but I remain doubtful.



Now as to the OP

My tank has varied from 12 to 5 dKH and the color did not change. I do believe that stable alkalinity is a key to colorful coral, but raising alkalinity above that which exists in nature does not change the color of coral of that I am sure.
Joe

P.S. My tank . . .






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Old 04/04/2013, 06:58 AM   #111
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What meter did you use? Is it calibrated for LEDs? The problem is that the primary meter on the market is an Apogee, and that particular manufacturer in no way envisioned the advent of LEDs and has built their meters using a smoothing algorithm that anticipates sunlight or fluorescent light. LED light is not properly measured. Plus we have little knowledge on what happens when we flood corals with specific wavelengths instead of a broad spectrum of wavelengths.
I agree with your statement but I disagree with where it leads. The Apogee sensor has a smoothing algorithm to correct defficiencies in the sensor itself. The meter will report low for any light source with a strong component of light below 500nm. It will also read any light over 600nm as more powerful than it should. However, the differences only equate to 10% of the light from those sources. If you take par readings of an LED fixture you only need to correct the readings from your blue LEDs by 10%. This means the overall error factor will generally be around 5-7%. If you have red LEDs present in the fixture the error will be even smaller. This is a trivial difference when you factor in other sources of error. It will also be a factor when measuring high kelvin metal halide bulbs and actinic/blue T5 bulbs.

The last sentence I agree with completely.


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Old 04/05/2013, 04:23 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by JPMagyar View Post
Your observations are in direct opposition to actual research that has been published so if you have any photo evidence to support this statement I would be most interested.

Also, how do you define LEDs as being "brighter". What meter did you use? Is it calibrated for LEDs? The problem is that the primary meter on the market is an Apogee, and that particular manufacturer in no way envisioned the advent of LEDs and has built their meters using a smoothing algorithm that anticipates sunlight or fluorescent light. LED light is not properly measured. Plus we have little knowledge on what happens when we flood corals with specific wavelengths instead of a broad spectrum of wavelengths.

My primary point here is that I feel like you are making comments with a sense of authority that are in no way yet explained in scientific literature. You may very well be right, but I remain doubtful.



Now as to the OP

My tank has varied from 12 to 5 dKH and the color did not change. I do believe that stable alkalinity is a key to colorful coral, but raising alkalinity above that which exists in nature does not change the color of coral of that I am sure.
Joe

P.S. My tank . . .


JP

You have a very nice tank, well done!

PS Your homepage link does not work, do you have a build thread on RC?


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Old 04/05/2013, 07:38 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPMagyar View Post
Your observations are in direct opposition to actual research that has been published so if you have any photo evidence to support this statement I would be most interested.

Also, how do you define LEDs as being "brighter". What meter did you use? Is it calibrated for LEDs? The problem is that the primary meter on the market is an Apogee, and that particular manufacturer in no way envisioned the advent of LEDs and has built their meters using a smoothing algorithm that anticipates sunlight or fluorescent light. LED light is not properly measured. Plus we have little knowledge on what happens when we flood corals with specific wavelengths instead of a broad spectrum of wavelengths.

My primary point here is that I feel like you are making comments with a sense of authority that are in no way yet explained in scientific literature. You may very well be right, but I remain doubtful.



Now as to the OP

My tank has varied from 12 to 5 dKH and the color did not change. I do believe that stable alkalinity is a key to colorful coral, but raising alkalinity above that which exists in nature does not change the color of coral of that I am sure.
Joe

P.S. My tank . . .


me like


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Old 04/05/2013, 05:43 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPMagyar View Post
Your observations are in direct opposition to actual research that has been published so if you have any photo evidence to support this statement I would be most interested.

Also, how do you define LEDs as being "brighter". What meter did you use? Is it calibrated for LEDs? The problem is that the primary meter on the market is an Apogee, and that particular manufacturer in no way envisioned the advent of LEDs and has built their meters using a smoothing algorithm that anticipates sunlight or fluorescent light. LED light is not properly measured. Plus we have little knowledge on what happens when we flood corals with specific wavelengths instead of a broad spectrum of wavelengths.

My primary point here is that I feel like you are making comments with a sense of authority that are in no way yet explained in scientific literature. You may very well be right, but I remain doubtful.



Now as to the OP

My tank has varied from 12 to 5 dKH and the color did not change. I do believe that stable alkalinity is a key to colorful coral, but raising alkalinity above that which exists in nature does not change the color of coral of that I am sure.
Joe

P.S. My tank . . .




JP that is one of the nicest tanks I have ever seen! I come back and look at that tank atleast 4 times a week! Come set my tank up, lol! I know you were helping me on my thread and I appreciate it! Hope I can get mine that nice! In cycle now


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Old 04/05/2013, 06:40 PM   #115
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Well for the past year...

... fed the tank more, after a few weeks, algae started to grow...
This sounds like the reason, not alk.

When you replaced the gfo, and such, did you cut down on feeding?


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Old 04/09/2013, 09:48 AM   #116
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Still trying to find the sweet spot for my reef.. I have good color on my SPS, but I want AMAZING, DEEP, RICH color.

6x54w ATI Powermodule
75g display

Big Skimmer
Filter Sock
Live Rock/Chaeto

Phosphates: .05 via Hanna checker
Alk: 8.0 via Hanna checker
Nitrates: Dont test for Nitrates ZERO bad algae growth anywhere.

Wondering if I should try A). More fish (I only have 6) B). Feed more, nutrient export more. C). Feed less, thus lower phosphates to undetectable.





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Old 04/09/2013, 10:04 AM   #117
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with a substrate you are going to have export more issues. the substrate is going to be your largest and best phosphate sink. you will always be battling the feed enough to make the corals happy, but not to much to raise the phosphate leaching from the substrate above mesotrophic/oligotrophic levels.

my vote would be B, unless A also means you will be feeding more food, then either of those choices should help in getting more food to the corals.

G~


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Old 04/09/2013, 10:16 AM   #118
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I have just redone my tank and used a 1" sand bed. I plan on cleaning some of the sand bed every week when I do my water change. Will def clean the top layer.


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Old 04/09/2013, 10:26 AM   #119
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with a substrate you are going to have export more issues. the substrate is going to be your largest and best phosphate sink. you will always be battling the feed enough to make the corals happy, but not to much to raise the phosphate leaching from the substrate above mesotrophic/oligotrophic levels.

my vote would be B, unless A also means you will be feeding more food, then either of those choices should help in getting more food to the corals.

G~
I siphon my sandbed every 2-3 weeks. Do you still think it would be an issue?

I guess if A I would be feeding a little more (volume not frequency) but not too much, its not like I would be adding another tang.

I guess my question is if I raise phosphates, do you think the nice deep color will increase? I have more than enough light, im just questioning wheather I bring more light or back off the light a little bit to get that deep color.


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Old 04/09/2013, 06:23 PM   #120
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great thread

I am using bioPlastic
NO3=0 (salifert)
Po4 =0.00 (hanna)
Kh=7.3-7.7 (salifert)

using CBalance to mantain KH,CA, MG levels
some of my corals Paled
and I am feeding a lot
I start dosing AcroPower 3 weeks ago and it's helps but it's Insufficient
I descided to decrease the Bioplastic in order to raise the No3 ,Po4 levels


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Old 04/09/2013, 08:03 PM   #121
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Any thing I should do to prep my tank for success? I am coming to the end of my cycle. NO3 are 2ppm, PO4 is .049ppm, Ammonia 0, nitrtaes 0, only thing I have added is a few hermits and snails. going to let them run around a few weeks then try a Chromis or two. I am going to start logging Calcium and Alk to try and keep steady. This is a great thread, thanks


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Old 04/09/2013, 08:51 PM   #122
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First off great thread! Lots of good info here. I started following this thread back in January and have remained silent until I had some results to report.

Second, Joe that is an amazing tank and it is my hope my new tank will be as nice as yours, so I have been taking my time and making changes slowly. I commended your success. Truly amazing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPMagyar View Post
My tank has varied from 12 to 5 dKH and the color did not change. I do believe that stable alkalinity is a key to colorful coral, but raising alkalinity above that which exists in nature does not change the color of coral of that I am sure.
Joe
Joe, with respect to your statement above, I have experienced the opposite. I feel that a high Dkh coupled with the intensity of the Radion LEDs did cause my few SPS to loose color.

So I have a couple question with respect to your comment:

1) have you ever ran DKH levels above 11 for a period of 6 months or more?
2) If so what type of lighting were you using? Were you using LEDs?

My results:
On my old system, I ran 250MH, and kept DKh around 7-8. My SPS color was ok, probaly slightly better than average, but I was also some what of a slacker in terms of husbandry, mainly becuase of setup. When I designed this new system (built a new house, so it was easy to make things simple) my #1 goal was SPS color and being able to easily perform tasks. And I have acheieved that. But what killed me is that even though I was doing everything as I thought I should, when I added my first few SPS, color started to fade a couple months later, by December 2012 I was thoroughly frustrated.

My new tank was setup in May of 2012. I added my first SPS corals in September-- a Green monti cap, a very hardy SPS coral and a Valida frag which had amazing color. These pieces were to be my test pieces! And until I knew that color would hold or improve, nothing else was to be added. My Dkh levels were maintained over 10.5 and mostly around 11.5. All my other tests (Ca, Mg, No3, Po4) were in check. But color was fading? That's when I really started researching all that I could find. My conclusion after reading many of the articles by Dana Riddle on AA in conjunction with this thread and many other threads on RC, my DKH had to be reduced and I also probably needed to reduce my photo period. In February I started tracking my result very closely and by March I was seeing color return. I will post a detailed account of what I did, but I feel the two things that I can attribute to my success is reducing my Alk levels and reducing photo period.

I will try and post some pics of the Valida and Green monti. I will also post a detailed accounting of what I did and the test results. The test results will probably lead others to draw different conclusions--mainly that adding I2, Fe and part D red sea reef colors may have helped, but my coral coloration was already recovering well before I started dosing these supplements. Since starting these supplements, they may have helped. I should also note I have a reasonable bio load on the tank which I am relying on to help feed corals. I am not not feeding my corals directly. And I have read all of Borneman's stuff. This tank is striving to be ULNS.

HTH others.

Cheers!
Brett


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Old 04/09/2013, 09:18 PM   #123
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Test Results

These results are only from January onward. Before this date, I had been testing weekly Alk, Ca, Mg, No3 and Po4. But I was not as diligent about noting the levels. I just tested and made adjustements as needed.

For Ca, Mg, and No3 I am using Salifert, for Alk and Po4 I am using Hanna. I recently purchased the Red Sea No3 test kit to see if it is any better than the Salifert. Also for I2, Fe and K I have been using Red Sea.

I'll try and provide some shots of the corals tomorrow night. I have an SLR, but unfortunately I did not use it to snap any pictures of the corals when they faded. I only have some shots using my iPhone/iPad. I'll will use the SLR for these next shots.


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Old 04/09/2013, 09:42 PM   #124
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My theory on lower alk being better for color comes from scrubber experience: Strong scrubber growth (photosynthesis) can pull a lot of alk from the water, and likewise, a lack of alk can slow a scrubber down.

So, higher alk gives the symbiotic algae in the coral more ability to grow, and thus, a darker coloring.


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Old 04/23/2013, 07:41 AM   #125
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Quote:
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My tank has varied from 12 to 5 dKH and the color did not change. I do believe that stable alkalinity is a key to colorful coral, but raising alkalinity above that which exists in nature does not change the color of coral of that I am sure.
Joe

I disagree and have a completely opposite experience.

My Alk started around 7.9dKh and based on recommendations from this forum, I slowly raised my Alk from 7.9dKh to 9.89dKh over a period of about 45 days. In the same time period, I watched my corals bleach....all of them.

After letting my Alk drop back to where I hold it now (~7.5dKh) all of the corals color has returned. All other parameters such as Calcium, pH, Temperature, Nitrate, Phosphate, etc has remained the same.

So based on my experience, your statement cannot be applied as a blanked to all tanks.


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