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Old 01/04/2016, 10:41 PM   #2526
jonwright
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I've had the same experience - after aggressively removing P with GFO combating GHA is when my troubles with this stuff began.

So while corals help build up the bacteriolandscape do they really combat the complimentary bacteria for Dino's? It certainly explains why corals suffer. So should you add MORE corals if you have a Dino problem? I removed what little I had (also a small amount of corals is a contributor)?

Does it make sense that carbon dosing with ethanol/vinegar will fuel the correct bacteriolandscape or is it raw food for any bacteria - Dino complimentary too?



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Old 01/04/2016, 10:47 PM   #2527
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Karim: I have a tank with Dino's (presumably) and one without. I would be happy to send samples/ run correlation exercises as well. I imagine it would indeed take a marine biologist and perhaps DNA analysis to see what the exact bacteriolandscape differences are between my tanks.

Eh. I'm gonna start throwing skimmate in the "ugly" tank.


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Old 01/04/2016, 11:21 PM   #2528
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Originally Posted by seamonster124 View Post
I did that along with a few other things. Day #4 with no trace of Dino's under the microscope


I read it all twice and I agree
How much phytoplankton should I dose?


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Old 01/04/2016, 11:48 PM   #2529
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How much phytoplankton should I dose?
I'm adding what the bottle recommended; which is 5ml per 50 gallon. But I'm dosing everyday instead of twice per week which was recommended. I'm also planning on culturing my own.


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Old 01/05/2016, 02:02 AM   #2530
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I'm starting my own culture too. I have a 600gal tank, so that's 60ml a week... I want to move to 60ml a day, but that's $$$ expensive unless I can culture a lot.

My skimmer is also a beast. Even adding the phyto with my skimmer off for 6 hours, my skimmate liquid still has a green tint ... But it's still worth it for the portion that gets consumed.


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Old 01/05/2016, 08:31 AM   #2531
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Dinoflagellates.

I also removed my filter sock. Before, the sump would receive filtered and skimmed water from DT, now the sump gets sprinkled with fish food everyone DT is fed.

I took out a flake that had laid in sump for 24hrs; it was crawling with different species of microscopic creatures.

I decided to take out the sock after looking at the sock waste under microscope and noticing I was washing away thousands of tiny creatures.


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Old 01/05/2016, 09:10 AM   #2532
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I run a mechanical filter free system too. No socks or sponges.

I also have a three layer refugium with the lowest later being a low flow, low light cryptic zone.

My dinos have been under control for almost a year now.


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Old 01/05/2016, 09:14 AM   #2533
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34cy- what's the next step? Do you have a recommended treatment? A bacterial strain that should be added?


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Old 01/05/2016, 09:32 AM   #2534
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I run a mechanical filter free system too. No socks or sponges.

I also have a three layer refugium with the lowest later being a low flow, low light cryptic zone.

My dinos have been under control for almost a year now.
You still have them in your system?

Today is day 5 dino free, I'm pretty much going to change my dino hunt to weekly since they appear to be 100% gone.


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Old 01/05/2016, 10:07 AM   #2535
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Thank you for that massively researched post, Cygni!
I read it once and am going to have to re-read, it seems to me like the dirty method should not only not work, it should make things significantly worse.

The existence of a dino holobiont makes sense, and is fascinating. Carbon cycling seems to be the new hot topic in reefkeeping as well as the real reefs.

I'm also slightly confused by your use of 'copiotrophic'.. most authors seem to use it to mean an organism which likes eutrophic conditions. I infer from context that you are using copiotrophic to refer specifically to high-carbon but low N and P conditions created after a bacterial bloom reduces initially eutrophic waters?

The multicellular eye in Wm showed up in my science news feed and I dismissed it as an obvious troll. Come on dinos, bad enough you're using the wrong rubisco, having eyes is just silly.

you totally got your biogeek on
Ivy


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Old 01/05/2016, 10:18 AM   #2536
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Originally Posted by jonwright View Post

So while corals help build up the bacteriolandscape do they really combat the complimentary bacteria for Dino's? It certainly explains why corals suffer. So should you add MORE corals if you have a Dino problem? I removed what little I had (also a small amount of corals is a contributor)?

Does it make sense that carbon dosing with ethanol/vinegar will fuel the correct bacteriolandscape or is it raw food for any bacteria - Dino complimentary too?
This occurred to me too. Someone needs to experiment with adding a huge number of sand-dwelling corals to their reef. Alternatively I'm tempted to annoy a rock full of pest Discosoma mushrooms I have and see whether the mucus does anything. (Of course allelopathic compounds in coral mucus may make this a terrible idea-do NOT try this with your favourite corals).

Carbon dosing is an interesting point.. it has been known to encourage cyano blooms. I can come up with hypothetical reasons why it should help and harm. I don't *think* I recall anyone mentioning that they were c-dosing when they got dinos. Anyone?

hth
ivy


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Old 01/05/2016, 10:21 AM   #2537
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Quiet_Ivy, don't give up...i know you said you're keeping your NO3 at 15, are you also keeping your PO4 at ~.03? I think dinos flourish when there is an imbalance between NO3 and PO4 so if you have limited PO4, have you tried dosing? Something like Brigthwell NeoPhos can add some PO4 without polluting your tank even more.


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Old 01/05/2016, 10:40 AM   #2538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy View Post
This occurred to me too. Someone needs to experiment with adding a huge number of sand-dwelling corals to their reef. Alternatively I'm tempted to annoy a rock full of pest Discosoma mushrooms I have and see whether the mucus does anything. (Of course allelopathic compounds in coral mucus may make this a terrible idea-do NOT try this with your favourite corals).

Carbon dosing is an interesting point.. it has been known to encourage cyano blooms. I can come up with hypothetical reasons why it should help and harm. I don't *think* I recall anyone mentioning that they were c-dosing when they got dinos. Anyone?

hth
ivy

Yes, I've been carbon dosing for years and have dino's. None visually right now and probably wont see them again until I screw something up again. My parameters are pretty well posted around now to. With Nitrates under 1ppm and even under .5ppm. Phosphates around .03. Most recently under .03.

My many adventures in comparison testing
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2541190

My most recent set of test results




But I don't strive for clean or dirty and have no idea which I fall into. My parameters for nitrate and phosphates are low. But my sump is full of detritus I never touch. I don't use filter socks or other typical mechanical filtration. The flow in my display tank is setup now to keep detritus suspended until sucked down the overflow to my sump where it becomes food and home to many critters.

For exports:
  • I don't run mechanical filters besides a skimmer which I use for aerating the water and removing bacteria that has consumed nitrates and phostphates.
  • I've used vinegar for years and dosed ~100ml/day for 200g total water volume.
  • I do ~1% automatic water changes daily exporting stuff.
  • I harvest algae via an ATS.

For imports:
  • I feed a lot. 4 times per day I have an automatic feeder dump some NLS Marine/AlgaeMax pellets. I hand feed 2-3x per day some meaty food maybe ~2-3 cubes worth. A sheet of nori per day. This brings in a lot of phosphates, trace elements, vitamins, minerals, etc. Plus increases urea dosing nitrates to my tank.
  • ~1% daily automatic water changes importing stuff
  • I add a small amount of Mg to that water change water. I need to reduce that amount.
  • I dose limewater which was via ATO and right now experimenting with limewater dosing separate from my ATO.
  • Carbon dosing via vinegar ~100ml/day. But recently experimenting with a vodka/vinegar mix dosing ~36ml/day.


I didn't touch the dino's this time around and just watched them. Pictures of their peak and eventual decline earlier in this thread.

Edit: and my Mg supplement used to be Tech-m but switched a few years ago to a Mg Chloride/Sulfate I mix together myself now for cheaper. Using Randy's ratio for those using Kalk.


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Old 01/05/2016, 10:52 AM   #2539
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This occurred to me too. Someone needs to experiment with adding a huge number of sand-dwelling corals to their reef. Alternatively I'm tempted to annoy a rock full of pest Discosoma mushrooms I have and see whether the mucus does anything. (Of course allelopathic compounds in coral mucus may make this a terrible idea-do NOT try this with your favourite corals).

Carbon dosing is an interesting point.. it has been known to encourage cyano blooms. I can come up with hypothetical reasons why it should help and harm. I don't *think* I recall anyone mentioning that they were c-dosing when they got dinos. Anyone?

hth
ivy
Well, what I DID do was add a couple of pieces of live rock from my "healthy" tank - no dinos/cyano on them. After 6 weeks of being in the tank - none on the new rocks. The other rocks have dinos receeding (slowly) but none showed up on the new rocks as one might expect. I also placed a bit of live sand (over the aragonite) in the same corner. Previously there were dinos on the sand - none are present there now.

While it would take a very concerted effort to identify exactly the bacteria correlated with dinos and where, it would be possible methinks. Nonetheless the whole complimentary bacteria story certainly follows in correlation with what folks here have observed. Yeah, I know correlation isn't causation but it seems to be on the correct path nonetheless.

I'd be thrilled to send a sample of my "dino" skimmate and my "healthy" skimmate to someone to analyze. Then perhaps dose my healthy skimmate into my dino tank. Or whatever else would be good to test a theory.

Also I removed coral from the dino tank and they are now in the healthy tank - doing much, much better. Maybe take a sample off the coral (for bacterial colonies in the mucous?) then place in dino tank, look for bleaching etc and test again?

Point is I don't have a uscope and I'm certainly not trained enough to be able to identify the critters therein even if I did have a uscope. But as I have 2 tanks using the same source water, simliar lights etc. and an ability to rather run some controlled procedures I'd be fine doing that.

Or not.

I'm willing to help if I can do so.



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Old 01/05/2016, 11:27 AM   #2540
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Just two months to be 1-year ostreopsis free. I beat it switching off the skimmer and dosing phytoplankton with a dosing pump (24 3ml shots per day)


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Old 01/05/2016, 02:01 PM   #2541
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I've been considering the exact same method for dosing phyto - did you keep the bottle cold? Been wondering if I need to get complicated with a dorm fridge or not.


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Old 01/05/2016, 07:03 PM   #2542
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I don't have a dino infestation, but dinos are always present... waiting in the corners for me to screw things up so they can mount a revolt and take over again. Paranoid much?

First, they send their cyano friends to check things out. If the cyano find enough dirty gunk, death or waste, they call over their nasty dino buddies who come to dig in.

Strangely enough, my corals do produce mucus more than I'd expect. Maybe the battle goes on in the invisible space but I don't see any dinos.

I turn off my skimmer at night now when I dose my phyto. I also turn off my UV by day. The corals seem to like it, so we'll see how well that goes.


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Old 01/05/2016, 09:50 PM   #2543
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I'm starting my own culture too. I have a 600gal tank, so that's 60ml a week... I want to move to 60ml a day, but that's $$$ expensive unless I can culture a lot.

My skimmer is also a beast. Even adding the phyto with my skimmer off for 6 hours, my skimmate liquid still has a green tint ... But it's still worth it for the portion that gets consumed.
Culturing it is soooo easy, fast, and a great way to save. From a small amount, I'll have a gallon of phytoplankton in 5 days. I just can't culture copepods for the life of me.


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Old 01/05/2016, 09:55 PM   #2544
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I'm working it, but I can't keep the culture fully suspended. There's material that keeps ending up on the bottom of the container and I have to shake it daily.

It's ok, but I need it automated.


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Old 01/05/2016, 09:57 PM   #2545
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So what's the plan for attack now? Avoid dirty method and dose phyto?


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Old 01/06/2016, 08:12 AM   #2546
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Quiet_Ivy, don't give up...i know you said you're keeping your NO3 at 15, are you also keeping your PO4 at ~.03? I think dinos flourish when there is an imbalance between NO3 and PO4 so if you have limited PO4, have you tried dosing? Something like Brigthwell NeoPhos can add some PO4 without polluting your tank even more.
I'm just discouraged. I'm running out of low tech-low cost options, things are getting worse and even if I do beat the dinos down my sandbed is going to be SO full of cysts.

I was keeping NO3 at 5ppm, the spike to 15 was a mistake. Phos at about .05 I was dosing NaNo3 at about 3ppm *daily*, and a (land plant based) P fertilizer weekly. Currently nitrate is still about 15 which is very odd. P undetectable.

ivy


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Old 01/06/2016, 08:16 AM   #2547
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So what's the plan for attack now? Avoid dirty method and dose phyto?
Well, the dirty method Does work even if we don't know exactly why, so I don't think ditching it is justified at this point. Definitely dose phyto, live if at all possible.

Reefing is the definition of empirical science (We do stuff this way and it works but we don't really know why and can't prove it)

ivy


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Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 01/06/2016, 11:42 AM   #2548
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I run a mechanical filter free system too. No socks or sponges.

I also have a three layer refugium with the lowest later being a low flow, low light cryptic zone.

My dinos have been under control for almost a year now.
Do you run any type of Chaeto?


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Old 01/06/2016, 11:43 AM   #2549
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Can dinos cause bubble tip anemone to split ? My bubble tip which wasn't that big split last night. Could it be because of dinos?


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Old 01/06/2016, 11:45 AM   #2550
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If the cyano find enough dirty gunk, death or waste, they call over their nasty dino buddies who come to dig in.
So you dont use tre dirty method, or rather, keeping enough waste in there for the good algae and other good life to thrive?


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