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Old 01/06/2016, 10:16 PM   #2576
karimwassef
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They ate all the cyano and then starved?


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Old 01/06/2016, 10:20 PM   #2577
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They ate all the cyano and then starved?
Sounds good to me. lol


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Old 01/06/2016, 10:25 PM   #2578
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So, why did they leave in the first place. What limited them before and now. I'm doing the same things then and now.

My parameters from what I can test with are pretty much the same as back then as well. Except Mg is higher then normal right now. I could go drudging through my tank journal thread if specific numbers are requested. I've never had issues with nitrates being anywhere near over 5ppm. By the time I had cyano covering everything and Dinos my phosphates were around .03-.08ppm. The first time around with them. The same as now.


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Old 01/06/2016, 10:53 PM   #2579
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
They ate all the cyano and then starved?
To note though there was a small gap between the cyano outbreak and the Dinos.

I posted this picture in October in my tank journal when I first got this frag.




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Old 01/07/2016, 12:30 AM   #2580
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As I understand it, the red slime is not the actual cyano. It's a biproduct they make when they reach a critical mass.

I can't explain cyano or red slime either except that they can be extremely localized. My suspicion is that there's a local die off that they're feeding on. Not enough to impact overall water parameters to be off, but enough that they can feed and grow in place until all the dead material is consumed. Unfortunately, if their biproduct is toxic, they can create a localized zone that's inhospitable to anything else. As they kill more, the bubble grows... Like a bacterial infection on necrotic tissue spreading to nearby living issue and killing it.

I can't explain it but my dinos and cyano seem to be linked too.


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Old 01/07/2016, 05:17 AM   #2581
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So if you're me, a thread observer who has never had dinos, but has a new small and slowly increasing patch of Cyano at two corners of the tank what would you do?
Do y'all think the cyano/dino link is strong enough to siphon cyano patches obsessively?
Or do you think cyano/dinos just like the same conditions?


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Old 01/07/2016, 05:43 AM   #2582
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All the Triton results lined up.


So, what made the dinos disappear ?
Triton can't detect low enough to even detect NSW levels of some elements, such as iron, so you can't know how those are changing when they read 0. Triton tests also don't say anything about the bioavailability of the elements it detects. Many metals can be in many different forms in seawater.

But so I understand this chart, which had dinos and which did not? Far right did not?


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Old 01/07/2016, 06:50 AM   #2583
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Randy - there is one common thread through the many pages here that I think really matters :

Dinos appeared as other algae were being actively removed either chemically (adding an algae killing agent) or by reducing nutrients obsessively (ULNS, heavy GFO, LaCl, carbon dosing,...). This is not a disease of the reef keeper who just lets nutrients go. It's the exact opposite. This is a disease of the obsessive extremist seeking the perfect reef and eliminating algae until something snaps and we show up on the opposite side of normal.

I won't speak for everyone, so please object if your case is different.


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Old 01/07/2016, 08:11 AM   #2584
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Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley View Post
Triton can't detect low enough to even detect NSW levels of some elements, such as iron, so you can't know how those are changing when they read 0. Triton tests also don't say anything about the bioavailability of the elements it detects. Many metals can be in many different forms in seawater.

But so I understand this chart, which had dinos and which did not? Far right did not?
Yep, totally agree there are definite limits to the Triton results and I also have some skepticism to it's full accuracy but accurate enough.

Yes, the first test the dino's were in full swing take over. The second test they were still there and about peaked. The last test they were all but gone at least visually. The interesting thing is the Fe and Al appearing in the last test with the Dinos gone.


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Old 01/07/2016, 08:21 AM   #2585
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
As I understand it, the red slime is not the actual cyano. It's a biproduct they make when they reach a critical mass.

I can't explain cyano or red slime either except that they can be extremely localized. My suspicion is that there's a local die off that they're feeding on. Not enough to impact overall water parameters to be off, but enough that they can feed and grow in place until all the dead material is consumed. Unfortunately, if their biproduct is toxic, they can create a localized zone that's inhospitable to anything else. As they kill more, the bubble grows... Like a bacterial infection on necrotic tissue spreading to nearby living issue and killing it.

I can't explain it but my dinos and cyano seem to be linked too.
Interesting. I still have a tiny bit of cyano in very obscure spots. I'm used to it and never touch it.

Like my return pipe usually the tip that's in the water is covered in cyano. I actually like iti better then the white of the pipe so never bother to clean it off. However, another side note since switching to that vodka/vinegar mix it has died back and all my rocks and sand is visually "whiter" then ever before. This switch over just recently happened so has nothing to do with the dinos decline and disappearance.

post 304
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...408985&page=13



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Old 01/07/2016, 08:32 AM   #2586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Randy - there is one common thread through the many pages here that I think really matters :

Dinos appeared as other algae were being actively removed either chemically (adding an algae killing agent) or by reducing nutrients obsessively (ULNS, heavy GFO, LaCl, carbon dosing,...). This is not a disease of the reef keeper who just lets nutrients go. It's the exact opposite. This is a disease of the obsessive extremist seeking the perfect reef and eliminating algae until something snaps and we show up on the opposite side of normal.

I won't speak for everyone, so please object if your case is different.
FWIW, I was not addressing what causes them to appear, which presumably is when they are present and finally get the upper hand over competing organisms (which is basically true for any pest, although the details obviously vary).

I'm really only proposing a relatively simplistic assessment of what might be allowing their elimination after becoming established.

As a related measure, people have quite a good understanding of nitrate and phosphate. Very few reefers have much knowledge of many other chemicals in their aquaria that are required by dinos, and how those might relate to getting or eliminating dinos.


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Old 01/07/2016, 08:33 AM   #2587
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Originally Posted by jason2459 View Post
The interesting thing is the Fe and Al appearing in the last test with the Dinos gone.
Did you add any iron by dosing?


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Old 01/07/2016, 08:47 AM   #2588
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Did you add any iron by dosing?
In the life of my tank I did once. And it was just after that second triton testing. I wanted to see if I could do two things. Increase the growth of my ATS growth or increase the dino growth. I noticed no extra growth in my ATS and the dino's started declining

Post 49 "I dosed a cap full of seachem flourish Iron supplement on 11/24."
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...n#post24204490

my entire reefing experience since 2009 is logged on this site.


According to seachem's site
Directions

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 250 L (60 gallons) once or twice a week. For smaller doses, please note that each cap thread is approximately 1 mL. Refrigeration after opening is recommended but not required.

Guaranteed Analysis

Total Nitrogen
0.07%

Available Phosphate ( P2O5)
0.01%

Soluble Potash
0.37%

Calcium (Ca)
0.14%

Magnesium (Mg)
0.11%

Sulfur (S)
0.2773%

Boron (B)
0.009%

Chlorine (Cl)
1.15%

Cobalt (Co)
0.0004%

Copper (Cu)
0.0001%

Iron (Fe)
0.32%

Manganese (Mn)
0.0118%

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.0009%

Sodium (Na)
0.13%

Zinc (Zn)
0.0007%


Derived from: Potassium Chloride, Calcium Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Magnesium Chloride, Ferrous Gluconate, Cobalt Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Boric Acid, Sodium Molybdate, Zinc Sulfate, Protein Hydrolysates.

Some components are no longer listed in the Guaranteed Analysis due to state regulations. The formulation of this product has not be altered.


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Old 01/07/2016, 08:53 AM   #2589
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So, why did they leave in the first place. What limited them before and now. I'm doing the same things then and now.

Hm. I keep a list of methods vs dinos, I had you under ATS. Do you feel that just waiting it out was the critical factor?

That's what happens on real reefs too. Nobody knows. Cyano btw can utilize inorganic phosphate, and is known to fix its own nitrogen. It can therefore take advantage of very localized patches of otherwise unavailable nutrients and grow. I suspect it then dies out, leaving a nice pool of N and P for algae (or dinos) to suck up. There's also a paper I've lost the link to which actually found dinos with *symbiotic* cyanobacteria living on their armour plates. I see a strong association between cyano and dinos in my tank too.

@taricha I would definitely not go nuts eliminating a few patches of cyano. It may be flow related since it's at the back of your tank? Pick the stuff out if it annoys you, perhaps increase critters which mess with the sandbed.

@mannyhernz: Unless you have a microscope you aren't going to be able to tell whether dinos are dead or not. Did you ever get your dinos identified? Dino X does not seem to work well against Ostreopsis. That picture in NTTH looked more like cyano to me.

hth
ivy


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Old 01/07/2016, 09:27 AM   #2590
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Randy - there is one common thread through the many pages here that I think really matters :

Dinos appeared as other algae were being actively removed either chemically (adding an algae killing agent) or by reducing nutrients obsessively (ULNS, heavy GFO, LaCl, carbon dosing,...). This is not a disease of the reef keeper who just lets nutrients go. It's the exact opposite. This is a disease of the obsessive extremist seeking the perfect reef and eliminating algae until something snaps and we show up on the opposite side of normal.

I won't speak for everyone, so please object if your case is different.
I would have to go against the grain here. I run my tank with no skimmer, no chemical filtration, and no mechanical. Only thing im running is chaeto. I have rocks in my current system from 3 years ago when i had a really bad outbreak. Whenever I do water changes, a small amount of dinos pop up and subside as the week goes on. I believe my tank would qualify as higher nutrient tank


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Old 01/07/2016, 09:37 AM   #2591
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Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy View Post
Hm. I keep a list of methods vs dinos, I had you under ATS. Do you feel that just waiting it out was the critical factor?

That's what happens on real reefs too. Nobody knows. Cyano btw can utilize inorganic phosphate, and is known to fix its own nitrogen. It can therefore take advantage of very localized patches of otherwise unavailable nutrients and grow. I suspect it then dies out, leaving a nice pool of N and P for algae (or dinos) to suck up. There's also a paper I've lost the link to which actually found dinos with *symbiotic* cyanobacteria living on their armour plates. I see a strong association between cyano and dinos in my tank too.

...

hth
ivy

Before was on my 55g and I was harvesting calurpa and ulva with a touch of chaeto but chaeto never did very well compared to those two. This was in a custom built hang on back refugium.

I now use an ATS I bought from Turbo's Aquatics and it's fun seeing what I scrape off every couple weeks.

I feel the combination of what I've been doing for import and export which does include the ATS along with not freaking out and changing anything helped.

Post 2538 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...postcount=2538
Yes, I've been carbon dosing for years and have dino's. None visually right now and probably wont see them again until I screw something up again. My parameters are pretty well posted around now to. With Nitrates under 1ppm and even under .5ppm. Phosphates around .03. Most recently under .03.
...

But I don't strive for clean or dirty and have no idea which I fall into. My parameters for nitrate and phosphates are low. But my sump is full of detritus I never touch. I don't use filter socks or other typical mechanical filtration. The flow in my display tank is setup now to keep detritus suspended until sucked down the overflow to my sump where it becomes food and home to many critters.

For exports:
•I don't run mechanical filters besides a skimmer which I use for aerating the water and removing bacteria that has consumed nitrates and phostphates.

•I've used vinegar for years and dosed ~100ml/day for 200g total water volume.

•I do ~1% automatic water changes daily exporting stuff.

•I harvest algae via an ATS.

For imports:
•I feed a lot. 4 times per day I have an automatic feeder dump some NLS Marine/AlgaeMax pellets. I hand feed 2-3x per day some meaty food maybe ~2-3 cubes worth. A sheet of nori per day. This brings in a lot of phosphates, trace elements, vitamins, minerals, etc. Plus increases urea dosing nitrates to my tank.

•~1% daily automatic water changes importing stuff

•I add a small amount of Mg to that water change water. I need to reduce that amount.

•I dose limewater which was via ATO and right now experimenting with limewater dosing separate from my ATO.

•Carbon dosing via vinegar ~100ml/day. But recently experimenting with a vodka/vinegar mix dosing ~36ml/day.


I didn't touch the dino's this time around and just watched them. Pictures of their peak and eventual decline earlier in this thread.


and to define a few things

Nitrates have always been below 5ppm. Since testing with other nitrate kits that can detect below 5ppm my nitrates are constantly below 1ppm.
Phosphates are consistently around .03ppm and recently lower. My last test was ~ 0.01

Vodka/vinegar mix are in a ratio mixed up to 690ml vinegar and 310ml of vodka based on TMZ's mix from the RedSea NOPOX thread exposing what's in it. No water added.

and my Mg supplement used to be Tech-m but switched a few years ago to a Mg Chloride/Sulfate I mix together myself now for cheaper. Using Randy's ratio for those using Kalk


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Old 01/07/2016, 09:39 AM   #2592
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So, yeah kinda. You have to understand I sat and watched a good 4-5 months of cyano and dino's cycle through. Only other thing I thought of doing and probably could have done to help is siphon out what I could periodically.


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Old 01/07/2016, 09:41 AM   #2593
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As a related measure, people have quite a good understanding of nitrate and phosphate. Very few reefers have much knowledge of many other chemicals in their aquaria that are required by dinos, and how those might relate to getting or eliminating dinos.
I keep an informal text file of methods people have mentioned using. Besides what's already been talked about, I have the 'dubious' list. Dubious (or 'I don't understand what that would do') includes Chemiclean, tech-m magnesium, raising the temperature, changing salt brand (conflicting reports as to which one, Red Sea seems to get the most bad press) and just about every coral food additive on the market.

I haven't seen any papers definitively explaining dino blooms/recessions in the wild, do you know of such? If you can prove that some obscure element is critical to eliminating dinos I will personally build a shrine to your research in my living room. No bets on whether said element will be easy to isolate and remove, tho. And I hope it isn't carbon.

The biggest problem with all our anecdotal accounts is that 95% of the time we have no idea if the pest is even a dino, let alone which dino.

hth
ivy


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Old 01/07/2016, 12:04 PM   #2594
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I don't have any special insight as to what is best to limit dino growth in aquaria, but the scientific literature shows many studies where different species of dinos are limited by low levels of N, P, iron, copper, zinc, and manganese.


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Old 01/07/2016, 12:42 PM   #2595
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Anyone live in Florida near Pembroke Pines that would allow me to see my water under a microscope to see what species of dinoflagellates I have?

Please and thank you


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Old 01/07/2016, 02:45 PM   #2596
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Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy View Post
Hm. I keep a list of methods vs dinos, I had you under ATS. Do you feel that just waiting it out was the critical factor?

That's what happens on real reefs too. Nobody knows. Cyano btw can utilize inorganic phosphate, and is known to fix its own nitrogen. It can therefore take advantage of very localized patches of otherwise unavailable nutrients and grow. I suspect it then dies out, leaving a nice pool of N and P for algae (or dinos) to suck up. There's also a paper I've lost the link to which actually found dinos with *symbiotic* cyanobacteria living on their armour plates. I see a strong association between cyano and dinos in my tank too.

@taricha I would definitely not go nuts eliminating a few patches of cyano. It may be flow related since it's at the back of your tank? Pick the stuff out if it annoys you, perhaps increase critters which mess with the sandbed.

@mannyhernz: Unless you have a microscope you aren't going to be able to tell whether dinos are dead or not. Did you ever get your dinos identified? Dino X does not seem to work well against Ostreopsis. That picture in NTTH looked more like cyano to me.

hth
ivy
Haven't identified what kind i have..so im thinking of a round of testing in a container..


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Old 01/07/2016, 03:13 PM   #2597
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I've decided to start all over and clean my rocks. How do I got about cleaning all my stuff? RO soak? Vinegar soak? H202 soak?

Also, what should I do with my corals? I have like $600 in corals. Should I keep the corals in tank and take rocks out? Any advice?


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Old 01/07/2016, 03:49 PM   #2598
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I would dump some bleach into the tank, and let it circulate for a while. 1/4 cup per gallon should be fine. The corals will need to go into a quarantine system of some sort. I don't know that I'd trust that treating only the live rock would be enough, but it might do the job.


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Old 01/07/2016, 03:56 PM   #2599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy View Post

That's what happens on real reefs too. Nobody knows. Cyano btw can utilize inorganic phosphate, and is known to fix its own nitrogen. It can therefore take advantage of very localized patches of otherwise unavailable nutrients and grow. I suspect it then dies out, leaving a nice pool of N and P for algae (or dinos) to suck up. There's also a paper I've lost the link to which actually found dinos with *symbiotic* cyanobacteria living on their armour plates. I see a strong association between cyano and dinos in my tank too.

@taricha I would definitely not go nuts eliminating a few patches of cyano. It may be flow related since it's at the back of your tank? Pick the stuff out if it annoys you, perhaps increase critters which mess with the sandbed.
Thanks. Low flow, and the cyano appearance coincides with my lawnmower blenny deciding those corners are where the poop belongs.
It's like he leaves it there so I can siphon it out, except I don't siphon.
Until today. I looked at cyano patches very magnified and found much less sand critters (pods/etc) than in sand patches without cyano. Sounds toxic enough to siphon.


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Old 01/07/2016, 04:11 PM   #2600
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So before I scratch the tank, I'm going to try the blood transfusion that everyone here is talking about. What do I have to lose? Going tomorrow to buy some pumps and tubing to do it.

On the left is a tank that is 9 months old with what I "believe" to be dinos, although it could he diatoms, but I doubt it.

On the right is a biocube with liverock and live sand from a system that is 5 years old. Bought this setup off Craigslist a week ago for $100 (not bad). It never saw light, so I threw up a led fixture I had on it. I see all types of life in it. Baby star fish, bristleworms, spaghetti worms, weird looking worms, etc..

This shall be fun. I will update everyone



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