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Old 01/18/2016, 07:19 AM   #2701
joti26
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Make of this what you will.

I borrowed a microscope from work to carry out my little experiment with Garlic. I had added garlic to my fish food as suspected my coral goby wasn't looking too healthy. I noticed a reduction of dinos at the same time although any number of other factors could be at play. However, thinking of the medicinal benefits of garlic I ran my experiment today.

I used two identical 'wet' slides. One for the control to make sure they weren't dying due to temperature.

Checked both slides for moving Dino's to one slide I added a small amount of crushed garlic. Within seconds all had stopped moving!

I repeated this three times, on the third time I did try and add the garlic and view at the same time, the Dino's became very active, even those that weren't moving at all. Then within seconds all movement stopped! The controls being in the slide for the exact amount of time were still moving! Even after 20 minutes of finishing my experiment. Other organisms although not many of them all survived some worm like ones, some with legs and some other odd shape translucent things.

My conclusion then is they don't like garlic!
Now wondering how much garlic I can safely add to the tank!


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Old 01/18/2016, 08:39 AM   #2702
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Now to see if they were killed or stunned.


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Old 01/18/2016, 12:03 PM   #2703
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Now to see if they were killed or stunned.
Lol! I actually did wonder that myself so removed garlic added fresh tank water without any other Dino's but nope still no sign of life


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Old 01/18/2016, 01:19 PM   #2704
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Lol! I actually did wonder that myself so removed garlic added fresh tank water without any other Dino's but nope still no sign of life
when you get the dosage of garlic down, let me know


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Old 01/18/2016, 04:00 PM   #2705
joti26
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when you get the dosage of garlic down, let me know
I've just ordered some Kent Marine Garlic Extreme just to see what happens. Mind you I have hardly any left now, mostly in the sump and I had spotted it early so it never got too bad, fingers crossed now.


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Old 01/18/2016, 04:24 PM   #2706
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Beating Dinoflagellates

I run 80 watts of UV continuous on my reef. I change the bulbs every 8 months. UV won't put a dent into dinoflagellates. I wish it would work but it won't. Biodiversity won't work either. I have very strong biodiversity in my reef system. I even had a very large stag colony that was 14 years old and about 2 feet wide. I have about 5 different types of zenia everywhere that I harvest constantly, etc. I am not trying to brag. This reef was set up in 1995 and I have had 3 partial (almost complete) crashes. I get the dinoflagellate after the crashes and it is a real drag. I am still looking for that magic bullet. But I haven't found one.


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Old 01/18/2016, 04:35 PM   #2707
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how fast do you push water through the UV?


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Old 01/18/2016, 07:32 PM   #2708
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Post some pics
They have consumed my tank now.
Trying dirty method see how that goes.
Has anybody tried dosing nitrates?
Like we do with sps? Tree stump remover etc...wonder if that would help??





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Old 01/18/2016, 07:45 PM   #2709
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manny - what have you tried?


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Old 01/18/2016, 07:49 PM   #2710
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Tree stump remover often (maybe always) contains potassium nitrate. I'm not sure what good it would do in a system in that condition, which already has a lot of fixed nitrogen available.


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Old 01/18/2016, 08:19 PM   #2711
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I was asked what is my flow rate through my 80 watt UV? I suspect my flow rate is only about 400 gallons an hour which should give me a very high kill rate with that low a flow.


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Old 01/18/2016, 08:40 PM   #2712
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manny - what have you tried?
Ive just started the dirty method recently..but havent done anything else other than tank maintenance.
Gfo carbon..no water changes.
Also have a small aquafuge f ull of chaeto


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Old 01/18/2016, 09:17 PM   #2713
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I'm on day 3 of dirty method and tank seems to be worse with dinos. I'm starting to actually see the bubbles forming now when I never use to.


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Old 01/18/2016, 09:18 PM   #2714
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I left lights on longer than normal and dinos aren't on sand bed anymore, only on rocks. Any idea on if we leave lights on longer than normal, if this does anything? Phytoplankton needs 12 hours on and 12 hours off. What if we don't let dinos sleep? Stupid question, but hey, you never knowww


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Old 01/18/2016, 09:38 PM   #2715
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Originally Posted by Billybatz9 View Post
I left lights on longer than normal and dinos aren't on sand bed anymore, only on rocks. Any idea on if we leave lights on longer than normal, if this does anything? Phytoplankton needs 12 hours on and 12 hours off. What if we don't let dinos sleep? Stupid question, but hey, you never knowww
I accidentally tried something similar. I have a HOB fuge and I was leaving the light on 24/7. The light I was using was shining very dim in to the tank during lights out and it made them worse for me. When I replaced the light with one that shined in from the back side the dinoflagellates would go free floating and would eventually take hold in the sump leaving the DT clear.


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Old 01/18/2016, 10:22 PM   #2716
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Ive just started the dirty method recently..but havent done anything else other than tank maintenance.
Gfo carbon..no water changes.
Also have a small aquafuge f ull of chaeto
I don't think you should be running gfo or carbon if you are doing dirty method. I could be mistaken though


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Old 01/19/2016, 12:14 AM   #2717
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I was asked what is my flow rate through my 80 watt UV? I suspect my flow rate is only about 400 gallons an hour which should give me a very high kill rate with that low a flow.
I run at 200gph. I think it makes a difference to go slower and run lights out and a wet skimmer to export. It worked for me.


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Old 01/19/2016, 03:47 AM   #2718
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There's a lot of experienced reefers here looking for the "miracle cure". Guys, ask yourself: When has there EVER been a miracle cure in this hobby?

Dinoflagellates are one of the oldest family of organisms on earth. They are motile, tough little buggers. You need to simultaneously change multiple factors to make the environment totally hostile for their survival.

Miracle cures in bottles do not exist and will not remove the underlying cause.


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Old 01/19/2016, 06:24 AM   #2719
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I don't think anyone is really looking for a miracle cure. A miracle, maybe, miracle cure, no. Everyone is just very frustrated in dealing with this prehistoric organism. In my case, we have done everything since last April to get them to back off. It was getting very frustrating. I believe we had our outbreak due to a change from crushed coral to sand. Even thought we did it very slowly and carefully, it still reaked havoc on the tank. In my opinion it is more a matter of keeping them at bay than getting rid of them. I am starting to wonder if a species are actually present in all tanks (actually they are, the good kind anyway, live in corals) and with a wrong mix of circumstances they just get out of hand. So anything anyone can do to keep them under control is a plus for the health of the tank and knowledge to other reefers . I am sure everyone here will agree there is always an underlying cause, but sometimes finding it when you are doing everything right and things are still going bad is very hard and frustrating. Just like any illness.


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Old 01/19/2016, 07:51 AM   #2720
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Reef Diva - since you have UV, and a particularly strong one, i would also suggest you do a 3 day blackout...force the dinos into the water column, that will give you the best chances of pushing the dinos into the UV which won't kill them all but will strongly inhibit their ability to reproduce...that is, afterall, the primary function of a UV sterilizer...of course at 400gph on an 80w it should be strong enough to actually kill them

here is a chart of max flow rates for a given UV sterilizer wattage...i would aim for under that number:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=1168

manny - same advice for you...do a 3 day blackout to kick them back a bit...right now your tank is infested with dinos and it'll take a lot more work for the other algaes to take a foothold with the dinos covering your rocks and tank...do the 3 day and then continue feeding heavy whilst dosing zooplankton and phytoplankton...if you're NO3 limited, then yes dose some but otherwise you can get the extra nitrates by feeding heavy and maybe even introducing more fish...if you're PO4 limited, NeoPhos can raise it up...take the skimmer offline


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Old 01/19/2016, 08:23 AM   #2721
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Also. Killing the enemy isn't enough. You need to repopulate with healthy organisms before the dinos recover from the blow.


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:14 AM   #2722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkchopExpress View Post

manny - same advice for you...do a 3 day blackout to kick them back a bit...right now your tank is infested with dinos and it'll take a lot more work for the other algaes to take a foothold with the dinos covering your rocks and tank...do the 3 day and then continue feeding heavy whilst dosing zooplankton and phytoplankton...if you're NO3 limited, then yes dose some but otherwise you can get the extra nitrates by feeding heavy and maybe even introducing more fish...if you're PO4 limited, NeoPhos can raise it up...take the skimmer offline
Thanks..
Will my corals be ok? Mainly sps
Also have a fuge with plenty chaeto and pods..


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:19 AM   #2723
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Going out today to look for a good bacteria additive. Any suggestions? Is the SeaChem Stability a bacteria additive? If so, is it good or are there better suggestions?


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:22 AM   #2724
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Thanks..
Will my corals be ok? Mainly sps
Also have a fuge with plenty chaeto and pods..
They will be fine. In fact I will guarantee you they will look much better and happier after the blackout considering the abuse they are getting with the dinos in there right now. After 3 days your tank will probably be mostly, if not all dino free and your corals will be very happy because of it. 3 days is not going to hurt your corals or fish, just feed them very heavily the day before. IME anything over that might. The most I've done is 4 days at which point I did start to see some of my SPS start to STN however I cannot prove that it was because of the blackout or something else.

If you do do a blackout, you will need complete darkness. Cover the tank and sump with blankets or something. Of course, continue on course with feeding heavily and repopulating your zooplankton and dosing phyto to promote other algaes and ensure the dinos don't come back. If you don't, depending on what species of dinos you have, blackouts only kick them back for a few days to up to a few weeks, then they return.


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:22 AM   #2725
tastyfish
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Originally Posted by justthewife View Post
I don't think anyone is really looking for a miracle cure. A miracle, maybe, miracle cure, no. Everyone is just very frustrated in dealing with this prehistoric organism. In my case, we have done everything since last April to get them to back off. It was getting very frustrating. I believe we had our outbreak due to a change from crushed coral to sand. Even thought we did it very slowly and carefully, it still reaked havoc on the tank. In my opinion it is more a matter of keeping them at bay than getting rid of them. I am starting to wonder if a species are actually present in all tanks (actually they are, the good kind anyway, live in corals) and with a wrong mix of circumstances they just get out of hand. So anything anyone can do to keep them under control is a plus for the health of the tank and knowledge to other reefers . I am sure everyone here will agree there is always an underlying cause, but sometimes finding it when you are doing everything right and things are still going bad is very hard and frustrating. Just like any illness.
They will certainly be present in nearly every system - of this I'm sure. From my experience of successfully (so far) eradicating them, a multi-pronged attack to kill and remove most of them whilst dealing with the underlying issue and culturing a competing population of organisms will work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkchopExpress View Post
Reef Diva - since you have UV, and a particularly strong one, i would also suggest you do a 3 day blackout...force the dinos into the water column, that will give you the best chances of pushing the dinos into the UV which won't kill them all but will strongly inhibit their ability to reproduce...that is, afterall, the primary function of a UV sterilizer...of course at 400gph on an 80w it should be strong enough to actually kill them

here is a chart of max flow rates for a given UV sterilizer wattage...i would aim for under that number:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=1168

manny - same advice for you...do a 3 day blackout to kick them back a bit...right now your tank is infested with dinos and it'll take a lot more work for the other algaes to take a foothold with the dinos covering your rocks and tank...do the 3 day and then continue feeding heavy whilst dosing zooplankton and phytoplankton...if you're NO3 limited, then yes dose some but otherwise you can get the extra nitrates by feeding heavy and maybe even introducing more fish...if you're PO4 limited, NeoPhos can raise it up...take the skimmer offline
Don't do a 3 day. It wont work. Others who have tried this have even witnessed the dinos coming back together in the water column when the lights come back on.

8 days minimum (I think I did 10) *complete* blackout (including sump, grow lights etc) with the tank covered, then slowly bring in blue-lights only over the next two weeks before introducing white WILL kill off nearly all of them.

Don't do half measures. at 4/5 days, I still had dinos clinging on, they were certainly in the water column past this time.


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Also. Killing the enemy isn't enough. You need to repopulate with healthy organisms before the dinos recover from the blow.
Very good advice - you have to ensure that their food source is removed and they cannot spring back so in addition to fighting nutrient levels and introducing competition, you must constantly remove the dead/dying dino's to reduce the chances of them springing back and also stop them adding to nitrate/phosphate levels.

Clean your skimmer DAILY. Use a wet-skim and siphon up the dead dinos from the sump. I had 5-8mm of them on the bottom of my sump.

I posted my full method below. When the tank came out of blackout it was SPOTLESS. As clean as it was when I first filled it. Touch wood, no dino's 8 weeks later.


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That doesn't look like Dinoflagellates to me. Having recently been plagued and (so far) having dealt with them, however I am not an expert and there are many species.

This is what mine looked like (a small sample of what was in the tank):


After speaking with some very helpful (and much more experienced reefers than me), I decided to employ a multi-pronged strategy to defeat them (this was performed in a relatively new tank, with only a few SPS frags) This consisted of the following:

1: Remove:
- Siphon to *waste* all the dinoflagellate mass I could with as little as possible water change (replacement water used TMC Pro Reef synthetic salt to ensure no organics) Do NOT try to pass through a filter sock or floss, they will pass through and re-form.

2: Create a hostile environment:

- 8 Day Total blackout (sump and tank wrapped in black plastic) followed by Blue-only lighting for 5 days before introducing whites gradually

- Maintain very low phosphate and Nitrate (Double Rowa amount, changing every 3/4 days)

- Double carbon media, replacing every 4 days

- Raise pH using Air stone to maintain 8.2+

- Wet Skim and clean it constantly - you need the skimmer at peak efficiency to remove dinos in the water column

3: Outcompete:
Create nutrient competition with good profile of microfauna/flora (Initial 10 x dose of FM Ultra-Bio, followed by daily top-ups of normal dose with UltraBak

Remember: Siphon Dead/Dying Dinoflaggelates to waste!
The reason for removal of as much of the dinoflagellate mass as possible prior to blackout and during is two fold: Firstly, they will break down and provide more free nutrients (you are trying to reduce this). Secondly, even if they are not toxic when growing in the tank (as mine were not), they can release toxins when dying off. I ost two conches who started to feed on an area of dying dinoflagellates on the sand.

The good news is that 6 weeks later, and they have not returned and the tank is (as far as I can tell) free of them.

A word on this approach, however - it is not for the faint hearted. Fortunately for me, I did not have a big stock of SPS. (Hammerheads, Acan, soft corals and LPS were fine).

However in my case, it did trigger a massive issue with the fish stock. As they were in the dark, they retreated to the rock and did not feed. This lowered their immune system and allowed a protozoan infection (probably Crytpocaryon) to take hold (I believe this came into the system on some macroalgae from another reefer previously).

So this method is certainly effective, and much more so than miracle in a bottle chemicals, however some care needs to be taken.



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