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Old 01/20/2016, 05:44 PM   #2751
DNA
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Reef Diva you can't spot heal a dino infested reef tank. You would need to attack the sand, water column, rocks and buried cysts all at once. Filling the tank with this stuff would for sure leave some dinos alive that would in a couple of days infest the whole tank again.


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Old 01/20/2016, 05:57 PM   #2752
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Hey Guys,

Good news... My dino culture has exploded. I have dinos all over the place. So instead of the usual $9.99 sale that I always have, you can have some for one very special low price of $4.99.

If you are unsure if you need dinos in your system, take a look at the important bullets below to see how they can affect your system. And my type of dinos is not the cheap kind that most other people have. My strain is a lot more advanced and will survive in the most harsh conditions. You will definitely be getting your money's worth.

Moving onto the Impact that Dinos Can Have on Your Reef System:
1. Have corals? Don't want them anymore? Dinos will take care of them for you.
2. Have Corals? Want them? Dinos will act as a friend and hug your corals.
3. Tired of that shiny white sand? Dinos will turn it brown for you.
4. Can't keep anything alive? Try dinos, they will live!
5. Like Magic? They will appear when lights are on and vanish when lights are off. I still don't know how they do it. AMAZING!

I don't expect to sell out today, tomorrow, or the next day, so if you are unsure if you want some, you have time to think about it. I will also be taking offers if they don't sell within the next 2 months.

SPECIAL BONUS: I don't normally do this. But if you buy 2, I'll throw one in for free!! Yup, FREE!

Regards,
Billy


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Old 01/20/2016, 06:05 PM   #2753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9 View Post
Hey Guys,

Good news... My dino culture has exploded. I have dinos all over the place. So instead of the usual $9.99 sale that I always have, you can have some for one very special low price of $4.99.

If you are unsure if you need dinos in your system, take a look at the important bullets below to see how they can affect your system. And my type of dinos is not the cheap kind that most other people have. My strain is a lot more advanced and will survive in the most harsh conditions. You will definitely be getting your money's worth.

Moving onto the Impact that Dinos Can Have on Your Reef System:
1. Have corals? Don't want them anymore? Dinos will take care of them for you.
2. Have Corals? Want them? Dinos will act as a friend and hug your corals.
3. Tired of that shiny white sand? Dinos will turn it brown for you.
4. Can't keep anything alive? Try dinos, they will live!
5. Like Magic? They will appear when lights are on and vanish when lights are off. I still don't know how they do it. AMAZING!

I don't expect to sell out today, tomorrow, or the next day, so if you are unsure if you want some, you have time to think about it. I will also be taking offers if they don't sell within the next 2 months.

SPECIAL BONUS: I don't normally do this. But if you buy 2, I'll throw one in for free!! Yup, FREE!

Regards,
Billy
Ha...wish it was that easy to rid them..well going out for black vynil today in preperation of my blackout ritual...will post with happenings


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Old 01/20/2016, 07:12 PM   #2754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9 View Post
Good news... My dino culture has exploded. I have dinos all over the place.
If you want to stay with the dirty method, I might try a lights out period along with some water changes to try to reduce the coral problems.


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Old 01/20/2016, 09:29 PM   #2755
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I just caught a message from Quiet Ivy I missed a few messages ago. You asked if what I had was dinoflagellates and not cyano. Yes it is very easy for me to distinguish dinoflagellates from any color of cyanobacteria (green, red, brown) since I have been looking at it and studying it (particularly cyano) for over 30 years. Dinoflagellates are hard to distinguish from brown slime algae when they first occur and the amount is very small (like on the tips of an SPS coral). Sometimes you just need to leave it alone and see what develops. Let it get a little bigger instead of constantly brushing it off with a toothbrush. I know because I was doing this. Finally I stopped and I saw why it kept coming back so fast - Dinoflagellates.


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Old 01/20/2016, 09:33 PM   #2756
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Manny

You are giving up prematurely! Not ask yourself, are you a quitter or are you a fighter!
Hang in there and pick up the phone. You know what I mean.


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Old 01/20/2016, 09:57 PM   #2757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mannyhernz View Post
Ha...wish it was that easy to rid them..well going out for black vynil today in preperation of my blackout ritual...will post with happenings
Lights out does nothing! They'll be back.


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Old 01/20/2016, 10:08 PM   #2758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9 View Post
Lights out does nothing! They'll be back.
But im desperate..need to try something!


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Old 01/20/2016, 10:29 PM   #2759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mannyhernz View Post
But im desperate..need to try something!
Patience is the best method. Then pick something a few others have had success with(I think some in this thread are keeping notes or building a sort of matrix like Ivy), find out as much about their system as you can to know if it fits your setup or husbandry, and then stick with it for a few month not just a few days. Sure there's people that have had quick reactions but that is not normal for these kinds of pests. Dinos and Bryopsis are very persistent.

I know I will always have dinos in my system just waiting to get the upper hand. I'm sure I haven't seen the last of bryopsis either. But when, not if, either show up I know (or assume with great confidence) that I just need to get back in line what ever is out of whack from what I've done in the past along with a strong dose of patience and consistency.


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Old 01/20/2016, 11:39 PM   #2760
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Update from post #2369: I've been super busy with my new job and other things that I didn't get a chance to update everyone. The Dinos came back. After about 2 weeks they started to grow and spread. I've tried a few things the past few weeks and I think it's helping. They have not been growing. They have been dying but 100% elimination seems like a long way from now. I can say that I refuse to turn down my lighting. I have been adding my elements, amino, and feeding. I'm not going to allow anymore corals to die. I'm determined to kill this mess. I discovered a high powered microscope at my facility and I'm going to identify it. I'm pretty sure that it's the same mess everyone else is dealing with. I'm not as down as I was before, I'm more determined to get rid of it.
What I'm doing:
1st since my SPS have been fading, I'm dosing nitrates via Spectracide Stump Remover. Keeping my nitrates at 5ppm.
2nd since peroxide has been helping with some, I've been dosing that too. Cutting off my return pump so the water is only circulating inside the tanks and not going down to the skimmer.
3rdly I've been dosing Garlic. I felt that my fish were suffering so I decided to help there immune system by giving them more garlic in there food and running carbon. I saw on her that someone decided to dose so I said what the heck. Sure worth a try. So along with peroxide I've been dosing at night while cutting off the return pump. my Dinos have only been on rocks and frag plugs. Never on sand. I believe the Dinos are getting darker which seems like they are dying and maybe cyano was under them or waiting to sweep in. I'll keep you all posted.


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Old 01/21/2016, 01:55 PM   #2761
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Ugh, I am discouraged. The sand was white just a few days ago and now it is brown again. The skimmer overflowed twice in two days and was dumping back into the sump and now the sand is brown. Plus I was feeding more. Why does it seem to get worse after I feed more if I am supposed to feed more?


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Old 01/21/2016, 02:01 PM   #2762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewilson83 View Post
Update from post #2369: I've been super busy with my new job and other things that I didn't get a chance to update everyone. The Dinos came back. After about 2 weeks they started to grow and spread. I've tried a few things the past few weeks and I think it's helping. They have not been growing. They have been dying but 100% elimination seems like a long way from now. I can say that I refuse to turn down my lighting. I have been adding my elements, amino, and feeding. I'm not going to allow anymore corals to die. I'm determined to kill this mess. I discovered a high powered microscope at my facility and I'm going to identify it. I'm pretty sure that it's the same mess everyone else is dealing with. I'm not as down as I was before, I'm more determined to get rid of it.
What I'm doing:
1st since my SPS have been fading, I'm dosing nitrates via Spectracide Stump Remover. Keeping my nitrates at 5ppm.
2nd since peroxide has been helping with some, I've been dosing that too. Cutting off my return pump so the water is only circulating inside the tanks and not going down to the skimmer.
3rdly I've been dosing Garlic. I felt that my fish were suffering so I decided to help there immune system by giving them more garlic in there food and running carbon. I saw on her that someone decided to dose so I said what the heck. Sure worth a try. So along with peroxide I've been dosing at night while cutting off the return pump. my Dinos have only been on rocks and frag plugs. Never on sand. I believe the Dinos are getting darker which seems like they are dying and maybe cyano was under them or waiting to sweep in. I'll keep you all posted.
Yes that was me with the garlic would be interested to see if you get the same result with them as I did under the microscope. Since I last posted mine has almost gone. I am continuing with the garlic in the food and the Kent Marine Garlic Extreme arrived today which can be added directly to the tank so am going to try and squidge the correct dose of 1ml per 10 gallons directly onto remaining Dino's. I haven't used the peroxide but did get some on standby. I have added pods, although can't seem to get the recommended benthic ones at all here in the UK. Did add a UV and did reduce lighting and covered the tank to stop any daylight at all as I did have a bit on the sand where even limited daylight hit the tank. This has been steadily decreasing over the past three days. But my one and only sp is starting to suffer everything else is doing fine. Got home tonight and absolutely none on the sand but some still hanging on to a Kenya tree, some macro algae in the main tank and frustratingly on the cheato in the sump. My coral goby is looking a bit better with just the garlic but have just got some NT labs anti bacterial but really reluctant to use it as it means no UV or any absorbent filter media for ten days. I hate using any chemicals in the tank but don't have a qt tank so the dilemma of the Dino's not being gone yet decisions, decisions! Save the fish or save the tank!


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Old 01/21/2016, 07:00 PM   #2763
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Does anyone know a good link to identify my dinoflagellates


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Old 01/21/2016, 07:25 PM   #2764
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I felt bad being subscribed to this thread and not having dinos. So I decided to get some!
I think I succeeded.
Is this amphidinium?




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Old 01/21/2016, 08:18 PM   #2765
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Has anyone tried Dr. Tims Re Fresh to combat Dino's?


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Old 01/21/2016, 09:14 PM   #2766
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Really, really needed to take a couple weeks off to not think about dinos -- at this point, I'm half convinced dinoflagellates are the zombie plague organism in The Walking Dead's universe, and Patient Zero was a reefer.

Back for Q&A time, but everybody remember that a lot of this is new to me, too, so I'm *not* the guy with all the answers. I'm nothing more than another hobbyist lost in the dark with everyone else. At best, I'm the guy with the flashlight. And if you've ever been in this situation IRL, you know the guy with the flashlight is always kind of a douche and won't shine the light where you want him to... Sorry about that. But the good news is that I'm handing out free flashlights, so if you want one, just ask.

And read. There's a lot of reading involved, and I'm not talking about my dismayingly lengthy posts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef
The question is - what experiment can we run to see if this is the right link?
If I'm right about TDA-making, coral-friendly rosies in shed mucus getting skimmed off, then this is clearly a good idea...

Quote:
01/11/2016, 09:08 AM #2618
seamonster124

6) Opened skimmer's collection cup drain to allow it to drain right back into the sump.
...but could be there's a better way. If a skimmer drained or overflowed into a bioreactor of some sort, perhaps we could culture coral-friendly bacteria before returning the skimmate to the system. Maybe the Montireef Protocol can be automated, enhanced, and made to work reliably.

Has anybody tried growing phyto with skimmate? The decaying organics should release nutrients. I doubt the culture would get very dense, but I'm thinking more about the possiblity that green algae has a hate on for dinos -- maybe some dinocidal bacteria from nannochloris will grow in the mix. There are seaweed-friendly TDA-making rosies that protect macro, and rosies tend to be dominant in the microbiome of phytoplankton, so there may be TDA-making rosies on phyto, too.

Also, it crosses my mind that if the decomposition of algae favors flavobacters, perhaps dosing crashed phyto that's already full of flavos in addition to live culture would help flip the benthic bacteria population in tanks that are stuck with long-term dino problems. Increasing aeration to a crashed phyto culture and shaking to break up and suspend the clumps of dead phyto would probably be helpful to the flavos.

That calls to mind an old trick organic gardeners use when they get an insect outbreak: they collect a bunch of the bugs, whomp the bejeezus out of them in a blender, strain the lumps out, and spray a solution of the resulting liquid onto the bugs in the garden. The idea is that some of the bugs are always sick, and the pathogenic bacteria or viruses or fungi are in the bug goo and will infect other bugs if given the chance. By collecting some dinos in a jar, maybe we can culture the bacteria that grow as they die off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Algicidial Bacteria from fish culture areas in Bolinao, Pangasinan, Northern Philippines
One of the control techniques in HAB [Harmful Algal Blooms] is the application of biological agent such as algicidal bacteria. ... Genera of some algicidal bacteria have been assigned to Alteromonas, Bacillus, Cellulophaga, Cytophaga, Flavobacterium, Micrococcus, Planomicrobium, Pseudoalteromonas, Pseudomonas, Saprospira, Vibrio, and Zobelia.
If the dinos' "symbiotic" cytophaga bacteria turn on them when they weaken, you might be able to prevent a population crash and culture more of them by adding a source of cellulose, but even if this were successful, I really have no idea whether the resulting bacteria soup would be dino chow or dino death... This might breed a generation of cytophaga (or perhaps some other algicidal bacteria that isn't on our radar screen) predisposed to eat ostis' cellulose armor, or the cytophaga might go right back into servitude and turn a tank with a dino problem into a tank with a dino bloom that melts your macro, or maybe you'll knock back the dinos and melt your macro at the same time, or maybe you'll get a jar full of enough palytoxin to kill you and everything in your tank.

No joke. That's one of the reasons why ID'ing your dinos is a big deal, folks -- know what kind of bear you've got on your hands before you decide whether or not to poke it. And be aware that I'm just thinking out loud.

I expect a safer approach would be to take a water sample, or a sample of sand, or a sample of skimmate, give it a good long shake, pass the water through a 10uM filter sock, and see if you can culture bacteria from the filtered water with a source of cellulose. Those bacteria could then be tested on a jar of dinos and a sample of macro. They may not be effective by themselves, but a combination of TDA-making rosies and cellulose-eating bacteria that get along with each other might be what we're looking for (hence the suggestion to try culturing the latter from skimmate or live sand).


Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef
The next question is - what do we need to do more of to support the coral-friendly bacteria if they are the heroes we've been waiting for?
We need healthy, well-fed corals. I've suggested in the past that every system should contain a pod generator, whether it's a fuge, cryptic zone, waterfall algae scrubber, or whatever (...though I feel I should emphasize that because of the sponge loop, cryptic zones have suddenly become extremely promising candidates for that role). Corals will recruit coral-friendly bacteria into their mucus by themselves, and the more they eat, the more mucus they release -- which might have something to do with the success of the dirty method, come to think of it.

Incidentally, it appears that corals farm pods. In the wild, clumps of decaying coral mucus and detritus are pod nurseries, which explains why pods haven't evolved to avoid mucus and stop getting eaten by corals. Farming looks like it might be a common adaptation to oligotrophy: damsels do it, dinos do it, corals do it... Though I guess corals are actually ranchers, not farmers.

Increasing overall bacterial biodiversity within the system would presumably help, as well, as this would widen the selection of bacteria available in the water column for corals to recruit. I mentioned that silica sand and carbonate sand host different bacterial communities, so that's a potential route to foster biodiversity, but one thing I didn't bring up is that seasonal water temperature changes shift bacteria communities, and this may help maintain bacterial biodiversity not just in coral mucus, but on a reef-wide level. In fact, I would guess that the bacteria (among other things) on reefs are adapted to seasonal shifts on the basis of light and its effect on primary production, water temperature and its effect on dissolved O2 saturation levels, and other variables, and the kind of stability we maintain is actually a highly unnatural state. LED rigs have given us a lot more control over lighting than we used to have, but seasonal temperature changes aren't something we model in our tanks. Might be worth thinking about, as it would be easy for many of us to let the water temperature drop a bit during the winter, and we know from the literature that unusually high water temperatures favor an unhealthy dominance by potentially pathogenic vibrio in coral mucus -- is the reverse true, as well? Do winter water temperatures put pathogens at a competitive disadvantage and give a leg up to coral-friendly bacteria?


Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef
Carbon dosing is used by a lot of reef keepers but only a few develop dinos. Why don't they all develop dino plagues if those bacteria are dino allies?
Dosing labile carbon should tend to favor Proteobacteria, of which there are a great many different kinds. Some are friendly with dinos, some are friendly with corals, some are friendly with seaweed, some are friendly with cyano, some are friendly with fish, some are friendly with people -- all creatures great and small have friendly Proteobacteria.

But it's probably Proteobacteria associated with other primary producers that outcompete the dino-friendly bacteria for labile DOC in healthy systems. Nutrient-limited algae dump excess photosynthate into the water column when the lights are on, so I'd expect the bacterioplankton population in a closed, recirculating, oligotrophic system to be dominated by algae-friendly bacteria. That would explain the low level DDAM effects reported on Santa Monica's site a few years back and why many hobbyists have difficulty growing coralline and keeping it healthy.

Carbon dosers who want to play around with trying to feed coral-friendly bacteria may be interested in this paper on the mucus of the corals Galaxea fascicularis, Pavona cactus, and Turbinaria reniformis, which looked for the sugars fucose, galactose, glucose, mannose, and xylose as well as glucosamine and galactosamine...

Mucus composition and bacterial communities associated with the tissue and skeleton of three scleractinian corals maintained under culture conditions
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...4f01000000.pdf

But be aware that this could kill your corals. As noted on page 101, corals become hypoxic at night when their zoox aren't photosynthesizing. The high flow levels we maintain are in part to disrupt the boundary layer around our corals and mitigate this problem, but bacterial respiration in the coral microbiome (not just the mucus, but also bacteria living within and all around the polyps) becomes an issue at night when some of the bacteria run low on oxygen and have to start reducing sulfur to get by. As noted, corals may make DMSP for the same reason dinos do: to get rid of excess sulfide before it kills them. Well -- that, and luring pods to their doom.

Dosing the sugars found in coral mucus is very likely to stimulate bacterial growth in the mucus. This could literally smother coral polyps at night, and even if dosing was limited to "daytime", it could still prompt runaway bacteria growth that could upset the natural order of things maintained by the corals' obligate bacterial symbiotes and become pathogenic. It's important to recognize that just because we're talking about "coral-friendly bacteria", one cannot blithely assume that if some is good, more must be better.

But that said, maybe there's a sweet spot where the polyps are fat and happy and the coralline grows like gangbusters.

FWIW, I'd suggest staying away from dosing glucose and xylose. Those sugars are too common, and too many bacteria can eat them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef
I skimmed very heavily and used UV and it worked - with the addition of phyto and pods. Why?
You more or less answered this already, yourself:

Quote:
08/17/2015, 01:07 AM #1544
karimwassef

UV kills dinos and bacteria in the water column.
Quote:
08/18/2015, 05:20 PM #1558
karimwassef

I wonder what adding a large volume of nitrifying bacteria would do. Something concentrated like TurboStart900 would create a significant rebalance of bacteria.
Meaning it looks like you knocked back your dino population with slow-flow UV and achieved a significant rebalance of bacteria by dosing pods and phyto. You may recall that I said I was looking for a bigger gun than just the nitrogen cycle bacteria...? Montireef and cal_stir found one. Pods and phyto. Boom.

Note that skimming leaves behind the sort of high molecular weight recalcitrant DOC derived from high-protein fish poo that was found to stimulate the growth of planktonic cytophaga in the wild, so UV may be lysing a reservoir of bacterioplankton that helps maintain ostreopsis blooms in skimmed systems. Just a thought.

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwright
So while corals help build up the bacteriolandscape do they really combat the complimentary bacteria for Dino's? It certainly explains why corals suffer. So should you add MORE corals if you have a Dino problem?
The tale about the changing bacteria on the corals taken from the Red Sea, kept in fishbowls, and then put back where they came from was meant in part to address this. Corals will rebuild healthy and diverse bacteria populations all by themselves if they get the chance, so rather than adding new corals, we should be concentrating on saving and building up the ones we have.

Easier said than done, I know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwright
Does it make sense that carbon dosing with ethanol/vinegar will fuel the correct bacteriolandscape or is it raw food for any bacteria - Dino complimentary too?
Quote:
09/12/2015, 07:26 PM #1791
karimwassef

carbon dosing accelerates dinos too.
Broadly speaking, yes, labile DOC is food for any bacteria, including dino-friendly sorts. However, labile DOC is generally bad for coral-friendly bacteria, especially in a system that is already (I presume) dominated by algae-friendly bacteria. Dosage levels used by reefkeepers are too low to induce coral disease or mortality, obviously, but I doubt regular dosing is good for corals in the strict biological sense, though of course it's good for corals in the sense that carbon dosing is a useful tool for managing nutrient levels.

But since you brought up vodka and vinegar, recall that I pointed to the genus flavobacterium, which apparently specialize in the decomposition of phyto blooms and breaking down high molecular weight organics from primary producers, as a possible agent for rebalancing the benthic bacteria population away from dino-friendly Bacteroidetes. When I described them on page 101, I noted this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni
Saprophytes that can consume carbohydrates, amino acids, proteins, and polysaccharides, but cannot consume alcohols, organic acids, hydrocarbons, and aromatics.
That means flavos can't eat vodka or vinegar, so those sources of labile DOC might be counterproductive for phyto dosers who are looking to move back to their normal tank maintenance regimes and start carbon dosing again while maintaining a benthic bacteria population that's not accommodating to dinos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwright
Well, what I DID do was add a couple of pieces of live rock from my "healthy" tank - no dinos/cyano on them. After 6 weeks of being in the tank - none on the new rocks. The other rocks have dinos receeding (slowly) but none showed up on the new rocks as one might expect.
Interesting. DNA tried seeding his system with LR several times, including a transplant from what he described a "unicorns and rainbows" tank that had high biodiversity and no visible dinos, and this achieved limited success at best and was a complete waste of time and money at worst... Perhaps the unicorns and rainbows tank doesn't have a dino problem because its microbiome is dominated by algae-friendly bacteria, and the LR transplant failed because of a lack of coral-friendly bacteria.

Have you tried the Montireef Protocol with skimmate from your healthy system, jonwright? That is, dosing the dino-infested tank with skimmate from the healthy tank?

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2459
So, what made the dinos disappear ?
Elevated iron levels are known to trigger phase shifts on wild reefs, transitioning iron-enriched areas around shipwrecks from coral-dominated to algae-dominated. This is from my "recommended reading" list:

Black reefs: iron-induced phase shifts on coral reefs
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...6444000000.pdf

It's a shot in the dark, but could be there's an iron-driven phase shift from dinos back to the ancient cyano/green algae duopoly, as both cyano and greens have high quotas for iron.

If you're looking for an explanation for the various "I did nothing, and my dinos went away" posts in this and other threads, this was on page 101:


Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni
I've read about symbiotic bacteria turning on algae and actually releasing algicidal chemicals when they detect signs of weakness due to age or viral infection or lack of nutrients... Such highly opportunistic, "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" type partnerships may be common between algae and bacteria, and this could explain why dino blooms sometimes mysteriously go away when hobbyists decide to leave them alone and let nature take its course.
I also hypothesized last year that dinos could become victims of their own success and put themselves out of business by turning their environment eutrophic, leading to the invasion of their bacteria farms by undesirable bacteria and microorganisms. Sort of a microscopic version of the dirty method.

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9
So what's the plan for attack now? Avoid dirty method and dose phyto?
Just in case anybody's reading the association between ostis and cytophaga, or perhaps more accurately the connection between cytophaga and proteinaceous waste, as an implied condemnation of the dirty method, I did not intend that at all. Keep in mind that cytophaga specialize in feeding on the leftovers from the banquet, but the banquet itself is feeding other bacteria.

In fact, I suspect that in a sense, all roads lead to the dirty method. That is, mixotrophy is an adaptation to oligotrophy, so we need a bit of eutrophy to beat mixotrophic dinos. Even the clean method adds a little "dirt" to seal the deal: phyto and pods.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9
which I think it the whole reason for the dirty method right? To increase pods.
The dirty method is all about eutrophy -- we're trying to trigger a phase shift in primary production from mixotrophic dinos to autotrophic algae and cyano. Decaying organic matter releases nutrients into the water and powers up the lowest levels of the food chain, which we're mostly aware of through the pod population. This puts both a "bottom-up" pressure on dinos, as the new nutrient regime should favor the growth of other primary producers along with the holobiont of bacteria, protists, and various and sundry microfauna associated with them, as well as a "top-down" pressure from increased grazing by pods and microfauna.

And, as noted, pods are an important source of nitrogen for corals. So, yes, we want pods -- aside from being coral chow, the scientific literature gives us reason to believe they're the heaviest predators on ostis (they're certainly the biggest predator threat for pelagic mixotrophic dinoflagellates, suggesting that they prey on benthic species during the nightly float), so it looks like blowing up the pod population is an important part of the dirty method's success. Or rather, its potential for success.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9
Guys I'm pretty bummed. I'm doing the dirty method and it seems like it's getting a lot worse. No red slime or anything. Any ideas on what I shold do?
You run a 29G biocube, yes? IIRC, Quiet_Ivy has an all-in-one, sumpless cube as well...

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
I'm also slightly confused by your use of 'copiotrophic'.. most authors seem to use it to mean an organism which likes eutrophic conditions. I infer from context that you are using copiotrophic to refer specifically to high-carbon but low N and P conditions created after a bacterial bloom reduces initially eutrophic waters?
I defined it simply as an environment that favors heterotrophic organisms (implying carbon enrichment), as opposed to a eutrophic environment which favors autotrophs (meaning nutrient enrichment), but yes, that's a more accurate description of how I'm using it: a low nutrient environment enriched in recalcitrant organic matter, as opposed to fresh detritus that would trigger rapid bacterial growth and the release of mineralized and organic nutrients as it decays (...or as we would call that in the context of this thread, the dirty method). One could argue that it's really hypereutrophy, but that's typically associated with elevated nutrient levels, a lot of vegetative detritus from collapsing algae blooms, low dissolved oxygen levels -- think Chesapeake Bay or Lake Erie in the Bad Ol' Days, or the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico by the mouth of the Mississippi. "Oligotrophic eutrophy" seemed an apt description but inappropriately light in tone, so I went with copiotrophic.

If there's a better word I don't know about, somebody please LMK. Best to change it now, as I don't want to be responsible for generating another clash between the definitions scientists and hobbyists have for a word. "Substrate" really drives me crazy...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
I was keeping NO3 at 5ppm, the spike to 15 was a mistake. Phos at about .05 I was dosing NaNo3 at about 3ppm *daily*, and a (land plant based) P fertilizer weekly. Currently nitrate is still about 15 which is very odd. P undetectable.
Have you tried playing the stoichiometry card to encourage your phyto? I don't have the numbers for nannochloris, but IIRC a "typical" N:P ratio for green and red phyto is around 30:1 to 50:1, so holding your N:P ratio in that range may be helpful when dosing. Note that Redfield stoichiometry = 1.53 x ( NO3 ppm / PO4 ppm ) -- it's explained here -- so a 50:1 N:P ratio would not be 2.5 ppm NO3 and 0.05 ppm PO4, for example, but closer to 1.5 ppm NO3 and 0.05 ppm PO4, as 1.53 x ( 1.5 / 0.05 ) = 45.9, or a roughly 46:1 ratio, and a 30:1 ratio would be about 1 ppm NO3 to 0.05 ppm PO4, while 5 ppm NO3 is about 150:1.

Dinos suck at absorbing nitrogen directly from the water column, but that's not to say they can't do it if there's enough around. This probably also applies in the case of joti26's tank.

And have you looked at dosing iron? As noted above, iron-driven phase shifts have been observed on wild reefs from coral dominance to algae/cyano dominance. Green algae evolved in euxinic waters and thus has a high iron quota. Cyano likes iron, too, which could break either way here.

There's anecdotal evidence in this thread and elsewhere both for and against adding iron -- high iron levels have been implicated by some as a factor in dino outbreaks. But while iron has been dosed along with N, P, Si, and other stuff, I'm not aware of anyone specifically experimenting with iron dosing, either by itself or in combination with other methods, with the exception of jason2459...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Did you add any iron by dosing?
In the life of my tank I did once. And it was just after that second triton testing. I wanted to see if I could do two things. Increase the growth of my ATS growth or increase the dino growth. I noticed no extra growth in my ATS and the dino's started declining

Post 49 "I dosed a cap full of seachem flourish Iron supplement on 11/24."
Quite a coincidence. Greens and cyano may be iron-limited in some systems, or iron dosing may fire up iron reducing bacteria in anaerobic parts of the substrate community and liberate nutrients from buried detritus. Has anybody else tried supplemental iron to combat dinos or seen discussions about it elsewhere?


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Old 01/21/2016, 09:25 PM   #2767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
So while I've not read all 103 pages (at least not that I can remember), I'm not sure I see a need to invoke a lot of special bacteria issues to explain most of the things folks see with dinos. ...

People should remember that dinos, like algae and most photosynthetic pests need ALL of a source of N, P, Fe, many other trace metals, light, space to grow on, etc.
Hi, Randy. Flattered that you'd take time to comment.

Nutrients are where this all started. I first contributed to this thread last year with the notion that benthic dinos survive in the oligotrophic reef environment by farming heterotrophic bacteria and cyano for food rather than absorbing nutrients out of the water column...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni
Heterotrophic bacteria are rich in phosphorous; diazotrophic cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen and are rich in iron. That's the hat trick -- the big three limiting nutrients in aquatic ecosystems, right there.

This isn't my idea. It popped up in a scientific paper on red tides from 2010 and so obviously applied to O. ovata in a ULNS reef that my jaw dropped open when I read it.
Most of what I write is intended to be helpful to the "old hands" in this thread who are grappling with entrenched populations of ostreopsis ovata, as they've known for quite a while that they're missing a big part of the story. My earlier round of posts on this topic begin on page 62, and the posts on page 101 assume the reader was already familiar with the idea that ostis (and perhaps all dinos, even pelagic species) are farming their preferred food bacteria. In the course of doing my homework, BTW, I came across a paper in which it was speculated that dinos farm cyano, so the idea seems substantially more credible in retrospect -- having seen scientists suggesting in print that dinos farm autotrophic bacteria made my conclusion that dinos farm heterotrophic bacteria as well as cyano much less of a wild leap into the unknown. And as I previously speculated, bacteria farming could explain the weirdly unpredictable amounts of poison produced by toxic dinoflagellates both in the wild and in cultures, which scientists have long associated with dinos' "symbiotic" bacteria.

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA
There is no doubt that this microscopic world plays a big part in reefs life and death, but how exactly is another matter. The demise of massive coccolithophore blooms, in just a few days, by a virus, have been documented so they hold a force to be reckoned with.
Quite right. Viruses are a critical component of the microbial loop, but they looked like a bridge too far... I included a couple of relevant links, though -- this one is a good place for the curious to start:

Viruses of reef-building scleractinian corals
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...0c82000000.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA
I found your wall of text to be very interesting and well done and clearly it took a lot of effort to research and get in writing.
Thanks, DNA. I don't want to be accused of hijacking the thread, so I appreciate a nod of approval from the OP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rallibon
DNA - please do not leave us in suspense re. post #2430!

I am sure like many people on this thread, I have been battling dinoflagellates for several months and have read this thread in its entirety and in particular sympathized with your and Quiet_Ivy's tribulations. Have you found something that works for your situation after so many months of trying?
I suspect DNA was venting a little by being facetious (...fun linguistic fact: "facetious" is the only word in the English language containing all five vowels in alphabetical order -- and "facetiously" gets you the sometimes Y).

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by REEF DIVA
You will need the following items: a large horse syringe, sodium hydroxide flakes, lab grade and kalkwasser powder. ...

This mix will kill anything you cover
I believe you.

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
(still lost in 34Cygni's footnotes..man that's interesting)
Yeah, now you guys know where I've been for the last few months: nerdvana. Stumbling onto the sponge loop was AMAZING, and I couldn't resist geeking on it in public. A completely new and unsuspected aspect of reef biology came to light just 3 years ago, and we have the opportunity to follow along as it's being explored! Speaking of which, here's a recent paper linking coral mucus to the sponge loop that includes the theory's originator, Jasper M. de Goeij, as an author along with Christian Wild, who's probably the world's leading expert on coral mucus. That's like the reef biology version of The Grey Album -- it's the mash-up you didn't know you wanted until you found out it existed.

For the benefit of those who feel overwhelmed by too many choices, here are a few good ones to start with:

Coral Reef Bacterial Communities - this appears to be Chapter 10 out of a textbook on bacteria published in 2013 - download your copy now, before the publisher notices that we've noticed this PDF, freaks out, and demands the author pull it!
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...6595000000.pdf

The Role of Microorganisms in Coral Health, Disease, and Evolution - more or less The Coral Probiotic Hypothesis version 2.0 - and read that, too - no accident it was the first paper I quoted from, and thus the first listed in the bibliography
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...1872000000.pdf

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - a review article from 2012 - it's recent, it's relatively accessible to the non-scientist, it's got Forest Rohwer as a co-author - what more could you ask for?
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...b61f000000.pdf

Viruses of reef-building scleractinian corals - repeating for emphasis: viruses are important
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...0c82000000.pdf

The seaweed holobiont: understanding seaweed–bacteria interactions - this paper isn't on any of the lists on page 101, but it's a good review, and it's recent - and macro is important, too
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...948b000000.pdf

Master recyclers: features and functions of bacteria associated with phytoplankton blooms - bacterial CUCs in the wild
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...6cbf760d7d.pdf


Like I said: there's a lot of reading involved.


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Old 01/22/2016, 01:27 AM   #2768
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In my research on the web I've come a cross scientific papers stating the toxins to be a sought after material and dinoflagellates notoriously difficult to grow in bulk so there are people out there trying to do the opposite of us and they seem to be failing as well.


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Old 01/22/2016, 01:32 AM   #2769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
I felt bad being subscribed to this thread and not having dinos. So I decided to get some!
I think I succeeded.
Excellent shots!

I was thinking Prorocentrum sp., but you could be right.
I had only couple of mintues this morning to look into it.



Last edited by DNA; 01/22/2016 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 01/22/2016, 05:32 AM   #2770
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34Cygni - are you not being abstemious for the month of January like many of my friends...?!

"I suspect DNA was venting a little by being facetious (...fun linguistic fact: "facetious" is the only word in the English language containing all five vowels in alphabetical order -- and "facetiously" gets you the sometimes Y)"


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Old 01/22/2016, 08:43 AM   #2771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni View Post
Meaning it looks like you knocked back your dino population with slow-flow UV and achieved a significant rebalance of bacteria by dosing pods and phyto. You may recall that I said I was looking for a bigger gun than just the nitrogen cycle bacteria...? Montireef and cal_stir found one. Pods and phyto. Boom.
thanks for confirming...i too believe this is the key to beating dinos...knock them back somehow either by UV or blackouts or whatever works for you then dose the phyto/pods and go dirty to promote competing algae


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Old 01/22/2016, 10:34 AM   #2772
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Is this Prorocentrum as well?


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Old 01/22/2016, 10:37 AM   #2773
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or this


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Old 01/22/2016, 11:03 AM   #2774
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Originally Posted by taricha View Post
I felt bad being subscribed to this thread and not having dinos. So I decided to get some!
I think I succeeded.
Is this amphidinium?
If you can verify that your scope was at 400x I'd say they are amphidinium.
Could you please post a full tank size picture of your tank.

I'd like to see what kind of tank it takes to get them going or to kill them.
I take it you introduced them into a healthy tank and will post here whatever happens.


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Old 01/22/2016, 11:25 AM   #2775
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Originally Posted by DNA View Post
If you can verify that your scope was at 400x I'd say they are amphidinium.
Could you please post a full tank size picture of your tank.

I'd like to see what kind of tank it takes to get them going or to kill them.
I take it you introduced them into a healthy tank and will post here whatever happens.
I am adding mine here too if you don't mind.


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