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Old 02/12/2016, 02:34 PM   #3076
bertoni
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I agree that there might be some confusion between nitrogen uptake and nitrogen fixing.

The links provided discuss the general mechanism of nitrogen, but they don't provide any quantification of the amount of nitrogen that might actually be fixed in an aquarium, for the ones that mention aquariums at all.


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Old 02/12/2016, 04:52 PM   #3077
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Your ref list in the other post doesn't have anything on non-bacterial phytoplankton fixing N. Well, diatoms but we don't dose those.

ivy (dosing silica is on my list of things to try actually)
It's on my list too. I'm debating where to put it on the list.
My other current idea is to attempt to deplete trace metals while keeping N and P moderate/elevated.
That might take a while to test though.

Also still cultivating a sandbed in a separate 10g tank for a possible sandbed transplant. Taking longer than expected to mature but progressing.


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Old 02/12/2016, 05:29 PM   #3078
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I was focused on cyano fixing N... I assumed phyto did the same, but didn't really look into it.

The cyano/bad dino symbiotic action is still key. With the cyano fixing N and dino feeding.


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Old 02/12/2016, 05:50 PM   #3079
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Are you saying that the cyanobacteria fix nitrogen and the dinoflagellates feed on the cyanobacteria?


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Old 02/12/2016, 06:49 PM   #3080
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Thanks for all of you on this thread posting you trials and errors, I've been looking here daily for advise and I'm finally winning the war. I got dinos back in late Nov-Dec from an online distributor that came with a sea hare. I looked for a quick fix that came as dino-x and a 4 day black out. All the dinos disappeared, but came back 2 days later. I followed some of your advise and got a 13W UV, stopped water changes, turned off my return pump and dosed 20ml of phytoplankton daily, dosed MB7 every other day, and added a ton of pods. A month ago everything was covered and I was contemplating starting over, now they are in a couple places in the display that I suck out nightly, less and less each day. I had Ostreopsis, confirmed with a microscope.


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Old 02/12/2016, 07:46 PM   #3081
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Are you saying that the cyanobacteria fix nitrogen and the dinoflagellates feed on the cyanobacteria?
They don't have to feed on the cyano itself. It could be symbiotic the way corals feed on the carbohydrate generated by zooxanthelle (another dino).

Cyano fixes the Nitrogen gas into biologically available Nitrogen, and the dinos feed on that.




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Old 02/12/2016, 07:55 PM   #3082
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I found the rest of the video.. but no killer ending yet






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Old 02/12/2016, 07:59 PM   #3083
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and this one was cool too




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Old 02/12/2016, 08:22 PM   #3084
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Okay, I agree that a symbiosis is possible, but is there any evidence of it in our tanks. For example, I can't find references to Ostreopsis doing so, at least not yet. Interesting. Thanks for the links!


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Old 02/12/2016, 09:31 PM   #3085
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Any idea what that ciliate with dinos in the belly was in the second vid?


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Old 02/13/2016, 10:06 AM   #3086
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Another Data point to the ongoing theme that everyone's Dinos are not the same:
My amphidinium shows most prominently on the sand after hours of daylight, and largely disappears from the sand overnight. Like normal.

But running my skimmer all night through early morning, and looking at sample after sample in the microscope, I never see amphidinium, (nor my other Dinos I'm calling Coolia either, but they are less studied, and harder to find info on). So where the heck does it go when it leaves the sand?

Turns out some amphidinium species (Those that are laterally flattened, like mine) makes a daily cycle within the sand going deeper at night.

So since I'm going for dirty/max competition then skimming is completely counterproductive, since it removes exclusively Dino competitors and no dinos.
That make sense other than just in my head?



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Old 02/13/2016, 10:30 AM   #3087
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Can you take a deeper sand sample to confirm?

So is removing your sand the cure to your protist?


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Old 02/13/2016, 02:21 PM   #3088
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I can check it one day before dawn.
I strongly suspect that taking my sandbed out would drop my dino pop by 99%. But it would also remove most of the things I want to compete with the dinos.
It would certainly change the battlefield in any case.
Like I said, a sandbed transplant is one of the things on my list to try. Currently culturing a hopefully healthy one in a separate 10gal tank.


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Old 02/13/2016, 03:26 PM   #3089
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Update and positive news:

2 weeks since adding 32lbs of live rock; just examined water from filter socks and found 2 single dino seeds VS about a million tiny unknown microscopic creatures. Their numbers and variety have increased dramatically. Also, coralline algae growth has exploded everywhere.

Anyone else try adding substantial amounts of live rock to their system to battle dinos?


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Old 02/13/2016, 06:02 PM   #3090
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Update and positive news:

2 weeks since adding 32lbs of live rock; just examined water from filter socks and found 2 single dino seeds VS about a million tiny unknown microscopic creatures. Their numbers and variety have increased dramatically. Also, coralline algae growth has exploded everywhere.

Anyone else try adding substantial amounts of live rock to their system to battle dinos?
No as mine has all the live rock it can take but I am adding bacteria so essentially the same thing I would have thought.


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Old 02/13/2016, 06:16 PM   #3091
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Bacteria isn't the same as live rock and not all live rock is the same.

I added a lot of live rock... Even to the point of tossing some of my man made rock to make room. I believe it helps a lot. Introducing biodiversity is key.

The problem with captive systems is that they can be prone to extinction events, many of them caused by us! Then, a lone and insidious protist runs rampant.

It's a gamble that the live rock you introduce will have the right predator, but why not try?

But small pieces from many diverse biosystems would have the best chance of hitting the lottery... And finding the controlling ciliate that chomps down on the particular dinos you have.


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Old 02/13/2016, 06:21 PM   #3092
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So I tried removing the floating green islands in my phyto reactor... It was HARD to grab. It's super slimy and breaks up worse that trying to grab cyano. I finally caught a patch and it was super bright green.

I put it in the tank... We'll see what happens.


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Old 02/13/2016, 07:35 PM   #3093
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That might be dead patches. Once a month I allow the bottle to settle and discard the bottom 2 inches


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Old 02/14/2016, 12:14 AM   #3094
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It wasn't on the bottom. It was on the top.

Also - the water is very warm because of the light. Is that normal?


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Old 02/14/2016, 03:34 AM   #3095
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Another Data point to the ongoing theme that everyone's Dinos are not the same:
My amphidinium shows most prominently on the sand after hours of daylight, and largely disappears from the sand overnight. Like normal.

... some amphidinium species (Those that are laterally flattened, like mine) makes a daily cycle within the sand going deeper at night.
A really good find. I've suspected that as a possibility for a long time, but never seen it documented. I bet ostis can do that to some degree as well.

A dino species like Ostreopsis can change their tactic based on the environment like using rocks instead of absent sandbed, move closer to the surface in a poorly lit tank or use their mixotrophic skills in the absent of light or nutrition.

Your experiments are very helpful.


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Old 02/14/2016, 03:40 AM   #3096
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Update and positive news:

Anyone else try adding substantial amounts of live rock to their system to battle dinos?
I've already proved that, in this thread, with multiple experiments as a certainty for good results.
There is a lasting effect for many months, but it has always ended with the dinos taking over again.

Substantial is the key here.


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Old 02/14/2016, 03:43 AM   #3097
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I'm urging readers and dino sufferers to upgrade from being a follower to a thinker and doer.


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Old 02/14/2016, 03:47 AM   #3098
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I met a fellow reefer yesterday and his tank has been run by dinos for a few years.
Despite of decent lights his handful of corals did not grow well and there was not a single spec of coraline to be seen.

Just brown rocks. How sad is that?


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Old 02/14/2016, 11:01 AM   #3099
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I'm urging readers and dino sufferers to upgrade from being a follower to a thinker and doer.
Done.

I decided last week to get serious about my dinos after 2 occasions where siphoning followed by 3-day lights out only served to beat them back for a month or so. I started reading this thread and thinking what might do it for me, but gave up after the first 20 (!!) pages. This reply is on what, page 124? Is there an executive summary someplace!? lol

Methods I've read that seem to have no success:
-Looking for a magical cure to eradicate an organism that has been around for 500 million years.
-Guessing what you have based on googled pictures.
-randomly trying stuff and giving up when things don't transform in 24 hours.

Where I think I went wrong is a combination of a lot of things, resulting in water that is 'too clean' by stripping too much from the water.
-Wet skimming pulling as much out of the water as I can
-Carbon dosing, stripping virtually all nitrates from the water
-heavy regular GFO use resulting in no detectable phosphates

What I think (hope) will work over time:
-Re-balancing the micro ecosystem to out-compete them and at least keep them visually out of sight.

So far I've
-borrowed a microscope from the lab at work to confirm Ostreopsis. The little sesame seed shaped heathens are spinning about on their point, or in a small circle. I've ordered my own microscope so that over time, I can gauge the health and diversity of the microfauna in my water, sand and on the rock.
-Turned down my skimmer
-gradually dialed back my carbon dosing over a week, to reach 0 yesterday.
-Replaced the carbon source (vinegar) with a bottle of 3% hydrogen peroxide, dosed at 2ml per 10 gal (for now) about 2 hours after lights out. It's on a dosing pump so I know it won't get skipped.


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Old 02/14/2016, 11:05 AM   #3100
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Has anyone started a proper log of contributing users that includes

-Species
-theory
-solution attempts
-results?


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