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Old 02/26/2016, 06:59 PM   #3201
taricha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
My phyto turned into sheets of green.
I still think I can feed it to my reef.

Thoughts?
I do, but for my emphasis right now, if it's green, I throw it in my tank. So I'm not very selective.
The green film that grows on the side of my culture bottles after 2 weeks or so looks the same under the microscope as my green film that I want to grow on the tank glass.



Last edited by taricha; 02/26/2016 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 02/26/2016, 08:08 PM   #3202
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parts of it are bright green. Others are darker green.

I put it all in my chaeto holding tank for now.


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Old 02/26/2016, 08:10 PM   #3203
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The Fritz gel I referenced earlier is superconcentrated... but it's everything in saltwater except for NaCl.


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Old 02/27/2016, 03:07 PM   #3204
34cygni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni
it's a net zero
So it is. It seems I've fallen victim to one of the classic blunders -- not so well known as "Never get involved in a land war in Asia" or "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line", but apparently this is a common trap even actual scientists are prone to falling into.

Following up on the topic at hand, I found a seminal paper about calcification -- or more accurately, its abstract, as the paper itself is behind a paywall -- that appears to confirm my speculation about the link between cocos and dinos being protons released by calcification reactions. Though of course, it bears mentioning that the notion that the calcifying organisms are cocos is, itself, speculation...

And pretty wild speculation, at that, as "benthic coccolithophores" sounds like the next best thing to an oxymoron. But it's a big ocean, and cocos evolved from coastal, shallow water organisms... Maybe this is an ancient adaptation resurfacing -- maybe cocos survive mass extinctions (or exploit the resulting ecological chaos) by retreating to shallow, oxygenated waters and reclaiming a long-lost niche in the microphytobenthos. Foraminifera or perhaps bacteria look like more likely suspects on paper, but calcifying bacteria would turn the surface of a sand bed into cement, which DNA hasn't reported (...though Quiet_Ivy did report her sand bed crusting over at one point), while cocos are world-class calcifiers, and DNA can't bring alk and Ca up to normal levels even with the dials turned up to 11. I don't know much about foraminifera other than that they're kinda cool, so we really need solid evidence from an afflicted DT to find out if we're dealing with cocos or forams or what.

This is from the paper that originally tipped me to what's going on:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Community and environmental influences on reef coral calcification
CO2 diffusion through the boundary layer surrounding an aquatic autotroph can support photosynthetic rates of about 0.2 u mol per m^2 per second... Algae and corals often have photosynthetic rates that are several times that fast, indicating that they use mainly bicarbonate. However, bicarbonate utilization requires additional protons (H+ + HCO3- = CH2O + O2). The protons may derive from H2O and HCO3-, with a corresponding efflux of OH- and CO3-. Large OH- and CO3- effluxes imply alkalinization and therefore CO2 depletion at the absorptive surface. This process reduces photosynthetic efficiency because of the Michaelis kinetics of CO2 fixation by the enzyme Rubisco (ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase oxygenase). Calcification provides an alternative proton source and potentially allows autotrophs to avoid most of the alkalinization and CO2 depletion that otherwise accompanies HCO3- utilization. ...

Nutrients may also affect reef calcification rates. Highly calcareous autotrophs such as corals and coccolithophorids calcify faster when nutrients are scarce and thrive in nutrient-deficient waters. McConnaughey and Whelan (1997) therefore suggested that calcification assists nutrient uptake. ...it might therefore accumulate NO3- and H2PO4- at least three and 10-100 times more strongly. Extracellular acidification should also improve NH4+ uptake slightly and slow Fe2+ oxidation, aiding in assimilation. Calcification's potential for improving nutrient assimilation therefore appears to be substantial. Moreover, seawater pH and alkalinity should affect this physiology much as they affect HCO3 assimilation. Photosynthesis and calcification may therefore become correlated, as will calcification and pH, even if the autotroph calcifies mainly to obtain nutrients. ...

Nutrients may directly suppress calcification, as was observed, for example, by Marubini and Davies (1996), and nutrients may encourage fleshy algae that compete with the calcifiers and feed their predators. Through such mechanisms, nutrients may reduce reef calcification. On the other hand, nutrients stimulate photosynthesis by both calcareous and noncalcareous autotrophs. By raising pH and the alkalinity:acidity ratio, reef calcification may be stimulated... This represents a metabolic cost to the calcifiers and may reduce their competitiveness in nutrient-rich situations. ...

...photosynthesis increases the alkalinity:acidity ratio, which reduces how efficiently calcification generates CO2. More calcification is therefore needed to obtain a particular photosynthetic benefit. Fleshy algae can thereby stimulate calcification in nearby corals.
This paper predates the DDAM model, though not by much, so this may be the authors casting about in search of an explanation for things they've seen in the field that's about to come from another direction. Or it may be that in some tanks, the rapid growth normally taken to be evidence that corals are in robust good health is actually signaling chronic stress due to low CO2.

In any event, extrapolating from the relationship between fleshy algae and calcifying corals to illuminate the possible relationship between dinos and cocos, it looks like all the photosynthesis happening at the surface of DNA's sand bed should push the cocos to calcify more rapidly in order to obtain CO2. Plus, the elevated pH that facilitates calcification reduces the efficiency of rubisco, which means primary producers need even more CO2, which means the cocos have to calcify that much more to get it. Everything points to diminishing returns driving higher and higher levels of calcification, which fits with the "titanium wall" limiting DNA's params.

It seems clear that even if ostis don't eat cocos (unlikely, given the nature of the enemy), they stand to benefit substantially by partnering with them, and that raises the question of what cocos get out of the deal. Obviously, they get a secure, calcification-friendly home, and if they're growing and reproducing quickly enough to stay ahead of predation by dinos and other organisms, they must also be getting a steady food supply. Cocos don't have gaps in their armor like dinos do to allow them to eat solid food (it's thought that one of the reasons some cocos are naked and others go through naked phases is to permit heterotrophic feeding) so they're dependent on dissolved nutrients, but they are thought to be able to access dissolved organic carbon, a nutrient pool that is for all practical purposes unavailable to other primary producers.

BTW, I poked around on Google Scholar for a while trying to turn up some papers linking calcification and bicarb photosynthesis in the microphytobenthos, but I came up totally dry. Maybe I just didn't think of the right keywords, but the closest I got was a paper from 2001 on the algal symbionts of radiolaria (which have siliceous armor) and planktonic foraminifera (many species of which have calcareous armor). Interestingly, in both cases the dominant photosymbionts were dinos, though other algae were also present.

Bacteriologists seem to be comfortable with the synergy between photosynthesis and calcification being split between separate organisms and the benefits shared, no doubt because they've spent years studying calcifying cyanobacterial mats and crusted-over desert sands. Given that dinos like to steal DNA from bacteria, perhaps they stole the genes to tap into this virtuous circle, and that's why they're dominant on foraminifera and radiolaria (...though I know nothing about silica deposition, so I don't know if it facilitates bicarbonate photosynthesis as calcification does) and how they mess with alk in some aquaria. But I don't know as anybody has seen evidence of, let alone investigated, that sort of coupling among eukaryotic microorganisms.

I'll try my luck with Google Scholar again and see if anything turns up.


Community and environmental influences on reef coral calcification
http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_45/issue_7/1667.pdf

For more insight into coral calcification, biology, and structure:
Geochemical Perspectives on Coral Mineralization
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

The chapter from Evolution of Primary Producers in the Sea that covers coccolithophores:
Origin and evolution of coccolithophores: from coastal hunters to oceanic farmers
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf


Just because I like to geek on this stuff, note that one of the authors of Community and environmental influences on reef coral calcification is Walter H. Adey, inventor of the algae scrubber. And in any discussion of calcification, Ted A. McConnaughey totally rates a name check, too.

psu.edu is Penn State, incidentally -- Google Scholar keeps steering me back there, so I'm guessing they've got a pretty good marine biology program.

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha
A point on the "dirty" method that I haven't seen discussed much:
If elevated N and P are the definition of "dirty" then it may be harder to do than people think.
There was another lengthy dinoflagellate thread in which I believe the goal was to try to get rid of dinos by manipulating nutrient levels, particularly N, to get green algae to outcompete them. As you surmised, it didn't work, at least not consistently.

FWIW, I put this on the table about a month ago, as I don't know if it has been tried by anyone in either thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
I was keeping NO3 at 5ppm, the spike to 15 was a mistake. Phos at about .05 I was dosing NaNo3 at about 3ppm *daily*, and a (land plant based) P fertilizer weekly. Currently nitrate is still about 15 which is very odd. P undetectable.
Have you tried playing the stoichiometry card to encourage your phyto? I don't have the numbers for nannochloris, but IIRC a "typical" N:P ratio for green and red phyto is around 30:1 to 50:1, so holding your N:P ratio in that range may be helpful when dosing. Note that Redfield stoichiometry = 1.53 x ( NO3 ppm / PO4 ppm ) -- it's explained here -- so a 50:1 N:P ratio would not be 2.5 ppm NO3 and 0.05 ppm PO4, for example, but closer to 1.5 ppm NO3 and 0.05 ppm PO4, as 1.53 x ( 1.5 / 0.05 ) = 45.9, or a roughly 46:1 ratio, and a 30:1 ratio would be about 1 ppm NO3 to 0.05 ppm PO4, while 5 ppm NO3 is about 150:1.

Dinos suck at absorbing nitrogen directly from the water column, but that's not to say they can't do it if there's enough around.



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Old 02/27/2016, 05:48 PM   #3205
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Cygni, I've been keeping N and P at a redfield approved ratio since your post. It doesn't seem to make good things happen any faster than randomly upping both. The dirty method *does* work. It's slow, and may require actually dosing N. Agreed that both N and P have to be elevated for green algae to start taking over.

My dinos were gradually diminishing as N rose, until i hit a 'critical point' and something triggered a mass dino die off. I would sure like to know what.

Unfortunately I don't know the exact numbers at the trigger point since it happened when I was away from home. I came home to most of my corals dead and rotting -I assume from the dino toxins, as all my equipment seems to be working and nothing could have got into the tank. My 2 fish and cleaner shrimp are ok, which is surprising. My nitrate's now off the scale.

major grumps
Ivy


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Old 02/27/2016, 07:21 PM   #3206
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Alkalinity is a topic filled with misleading definitions.

I agree that dinoflagellates, and any photosynthetic organism, for that matter, can deplete carbonate alkalinity, although not total alkalinity. This depletion raises the pH, and phytoplankton growing containers can get very high in pH, up to 10 or so, if my memory is correct.

For most of our tanks, the aeration capacity is high enough that carbon dioxide can enter rapidly enough to ensure that there is plenty of carbonate alkalinity. Any pH below 8.6 or so likely is fine as far as pH effects. A number of organisms seem to prefer to take up bicarbonate for their inorganic carbon, but I don't remember how wide-spread that is.


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Old 02/27/2016, 08:03 PM   #3207
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34cygni, sent you a PM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni View Post
There was another lengthy dinoflagellate thread in which I believe the goal was to try to get rid of dinos by manipulating nutrient levels, particularly N, to get green algae to outcompete them. As you surmised, it didn't work, at least not consistently.
hmm... I'll find that thread, sounds like I'm rehashing quite a bit of it.

On a side note, trying to figure out dinos is like studying chemistry and biology of the whole dang ocean.
I tell my physics students that I've learned 80% of what I know about biology and 90% of what I know about chemistry from my reef tank. I need to update those numbers. They are way higher now


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Old 02/28/2016, 09:07 PM   #3208
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Following up on an earlier idea -
I have a 10 gallon tank that I'm culturing as a potential healthy sandbed transplant for my main tank.
It will surprise no one following the thread that dinos do not live long in a tank that looks like this...


Here's a shot of the tank glass crawling with all kinds of beasties.
https://youtu.be/dgEk2cuWiwg
I put 2 or 3 turkey basters of dino sand/cyano in every day, and by the next day dinos are 80-90% gone.
But it didn't start that way. Over a week ago, when I put the first squirt of dino sand in, 2 days later the dinos had spread slightly, so I have the tank a boost by dumping 200ml of skimmer "green tea" in to see if that helped. Dinos were dramatically reduced 2 days after that.

Still no direct observation of predation on dinos by micro life, but there are lots of candidates in the tank and I will keep watching.



Last edited by taricha; 02/28/2016 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 02/29/2016, 11:53 PM   #3209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
Cygni, I've been keeping N and P at a redfield approved ratio since your post. It doesn't seem to make good things happen any faster than randomly upping both.
That's useful information, too.

I'm not a devotee of the Redfield Ratio School of Algae Management, but I thought it might be worth a try because there were a few reports of tanks -- I think yours was one of them -- that went dirty and saw a flush of algae growth before the dinos took over again. My interpretation of this is that the dinos fought back, using their toxins to manage the bacteria population and make the system more hostile to the green algae holobiont, but it was also possible that these systems transiently passed through the "redfield approved ratio" zone as nutrient levels rose, and that was why green algae briefly took off, but then the algae lost a key competitive advantage when the N:P ratio went out of whack.

But apparently not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
My dinos were gradually diminishing as N rose, until i hit a 'critical point' and something triggered a mass dino die off. I would sure like to know what.
You and me both.

What took the dinos' place? I'm guessing your tank isn't carpeted with green algae now... Did the dinos go away and leave clean sand?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
I came home to most of my corals dead and rotting
So, so sorry to hear that not only did your tank crash, but that you were getting a handle on the situation when it fell apart in your absence. I can only imagine how horrible it must have been to come home to that, especially after all that work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy
My nitrate's now off the scale.
Am I correctly recalling that you're into FW, too? You might dig up an old an airlift and jam it into your sand bed to circulate tank water through the sand. Works better with coarse sand, but that should facilitate denitrification and eventually gas off enough nitrogen to get your NO3 down to FOWLR levels. Should help with dissolved organic N as well as NO3.

I almost suggested this to you last year as a way of trying to mess with the dinos' bacteria farms, but it seemed too simple and too silly to be taken seriously, and what self-respecting reefer would put an airlift pump in a DT? In retrospect, I'm sorry I didn't put it on the table for you to consider.

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha
Over a week ago, when I put the first squirt of dino sand in, 2 days later the dinos had spread slightly
Ye gods!


Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha
200ml of skimmer "green tea" in to see if that helped. Dinos were dramatically reduced 2 days after that.
Since the dinos spread at first but are now being killed off, that would seem to suggest that whatever's killing them was concentrated in the tea, but absent or too thinly spread to be effective in the tank. After you added an extra dose of dino-killing whatever, these organisms are apparently able to sustain themselves in sufficient numbers to remain effective -- presumably because you're feeding them.

Have you tried making black tea yet?


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Old 03/01/2016, 04:53 AM   #3210
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Ok here we go. Glad I found this thread.
Dinos exploded last week in my tank, amazing how fast they took over.

I've been dosing phyto for the last 2 days, running carbon and a little gfo and a few doses of LC. Ordered a UV, Kalk powder, Coral Snow, Seachem Replenish and was considering a canister filter but not sure I can get small enough filter media to catch the dinos.

I did siphon some out into a jar and filter it into another jar through a paper towel and within an hour had some stringy stuff in there. I should be able to check with a scope by the end of the week.

I've also been siphoning it out once a day but that requires a 5gal water change to replace what I siphon out. Snails are still alive and laying eggs so it doesn't seem toxic to them. Smooth skinned acros, zoas, and hammer taking a beating though....


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Old 03/01/2016, 05:16 AM   #3211
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Report back here !

After 5 days total black out, fish , LP were ok , but one acros Stned from base. Other remains ok.

Have observed that rocks and tank base glass were clear of those brown algae yet still seeing strands of brown algae like stuff stick to some corals , don't know what it was but after five days do total black surely it should not be Dino.

Now still battling for high nutrients and to my surprised my zeobak dosing are not able to lowered down my nutrient of which I doubt if it was bad batch or counterfeit item .

Now leaving me no clue what should I do next !















MD


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Old 03/01/2016, 06:09 AM   #3212
taricha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni View Post

Have you tried making black tea yet?
Funny you should mention that.
Yes, I have, and it's effective - seems to contain similar zoom-y things to the green tea, and dinos don't do well in it which is a good thing. I'll continue adding to it
...because my "green tea" bottle crashed so to speak, it started growing a lot of green cyano - and so dinos hang out happily in the mix now.
Cyano and my dinos - BFFs.

news on the dino predator front.
Found several of these in my dino sand in my main tank. Looks to me like a ciliate - maybe euplotes?? with a half dozen amphidinium dinos in its gut.
https://youtu.be/f5VctFNP_zs

another individual, also some amphidinium in its gut
https://youtu.be/mR9jrbsJvX8

Anyone help on the ID, and is it likely anyone out there is culturing these?


Quote:
Originally Posted by machodik View Post
After 5 days total black out...
Now still battling for high nutrients and to my surprised my zeobak dosing are not able to lowered down my nutrient of which I doubt if it was bad batch or counterfeit item .
Most of the thinking is that Dinos come back after a lights out period because they are not replaced by something. So now you have a dino-sized vacancy in your tank biosystem. Most people try something like live phyto, pods, beneficial bacteria, algae etc to fill the space so dinos don't have a place to come back to.



Last edited by taricha; 03/01/2016 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 03/01/2016, 04:18 PM   #3213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
Found several of these in my dino sand in my main tank. Looks to me like a ciliate - maybe euplotes?? with a half dozen amphidinium dinos in its gut.
https://youtu.be/f5VctFNP_zs

another individual, also some amphidinium in its gut
https://youtu.be/mR9jrbsJvX8

Anyone help on the ID, and is it likely anyone out there is culturing these?
I saw several of these in my tank as well. On close watch under the microscope for like 30 mins i never saw any one of them actually ingest a dinoflagellate. They look like Dinos in its belly but i doubt they are. At least in my observation they did not take an interest in the Dinos in their close sorroundings at all. I hope I'm wrong. I hope they do eat them in which case im loaded with those creatures.


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Old 03/01/2016, 05:21 PM   #3214
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I saw several of these in my tank as well. On close watch under the microscope for like 30 mins i never saw any one of them actually ingest a dinoflagellate.
I looked for a long time, watching a bunch of ciliates that didn't eat dinos.

But in addition to those on the video, I saw two more different species of ciliates today with dinos in their belly.
I'm starting to wonder if there's something to ciliate predation - at least for less toxic dino species.


Ran across this AA article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/10/breeder on culturing ciliates. I might flirt with the idea a bit.


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Old 03/02/2016, 06:58 PM   #3215
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I have dinoflagellates growing like brown hair algae on certain spots at the end of some of my setosa. Any was to get rid of this? Anyone else deal with problems like this?


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Old 03/03/2016, 09:30 AM   #3216
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Quote:
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Report back here !

After 5 days total black out, fish , LP were ok , but one acros Stned from base. Other remains ok.

Have observed that rocks and tank base glass were clear of those brown algae yet still seeing strands of brown algae like stuff stick to some corals , don't know what it was but after five days do total black surely it should not be Dino.

Now still battling for high nutrients and to my surprised my zeobak dosing are not able to lowered down my nutrient of which I doubt if it was bad batch or counterfeit item .

Now leaving me no clue what should I do next !















MD
I don't think 5 days is long enough for the black out method. I chickened out at 8 or 9 days, others who have stopped short have reported the dinos have come back a few weeks or a few months later. My tank was spotless, not a single sign of any sort of algae.

I would keep getting bio-diversity in to the tank, on a daily basis, keep the pH high (8.5) and strictly use blue spectrum lights only for the next 2 weeks.
Make sure you are siphoning out the dead dinos and any areas of the sand they remain on, replacing with synthetic salt water (TMCPR or similar (no DOC's).


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Old 03/03/2016, 03:26 PM   #3217
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I ran the new UV last night and it seems to be working. Filter sock is in place and running carbon in my reactor. Skipped the gfo this time. Still running the lights but will start kalwasser dosing when my ph probe gets here (I haven't checked ph in about 7 years).

Still dosing the phyto 5 ml/gal and dosed the coral snow today (I read it will bind to the free floating dinos to make filtering them out easier)

This UV was really cheap, hope it lasts a few weeks...

Green Killing Machine Internal 24 Watts UV Sterilizer with Power Head
by AA Aquarium


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Old 03/03/2016, 10:06 PM   #3218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksc View Post
I ran the new UV last night and it seems to be working. Filter sock is in place and running carbon in my reactor. Skipped the gfo this time. Still running the lights but will start kalwasser dosing when my ph probe gets here (I haven't checked ph in about 7 years).

Still dosing the phyto 5 ml/gal and dosed the coral snow today (I read it will bind to the free floating dinos to make filtering them out easier)

This UV was really cheap, hope it lasts a few weeks...

Green Killing Machine Internal 24 Watts UV Sterilizer with Power Head
by AA Aquarium
Personally I'd drop the UV, you're adding biodiversity and then undoing it by killing it off again with the UV.(I also added FM UltraBio daily).

I think you need to pick one or the other approach or have clearly defined phases: knock the dinos right back and then pile the biodiversity in to fill the gap before the Dinos can recover.


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Old 03/03/2016, 10:24 PM   #3219
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I added biodiversity and used a UV - they don't interfere with each other because dinos are in the water column in the dark, while most of the biodiversity is in the rocks and sand.


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Old 03/03/2016, 10:40 PM   #3220
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Quote:
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I added biodiversity and used a UV - they don't interfere with each other because dinos are in the water column in the dark, while most of the biodiversity is in the rocks and sand.

Not sure I would agree with that if you are dosing bacteria and also phyto into the water column... Also methods like triton specifically advise against UV due to its impact on biodiversity.

Dinoflagellates are only massed in the water column when you disrupt their colonisation of the substrate and rock with a blackout also, so again, in my logical view, you'd need to get them into the water column to impact them.


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Old 03/03/2016, 10:44 PM   #3221
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that's why you turn lights off... drive them into the water column.

Also, bacteria need media to settle in/on. You can mix them in by day and turn UV on by night.

It worked.


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Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
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Old 03/04/2016, 02:18 AM   #3222
ksc
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
that's why you turn lights off... drive them into the water column.

Also, bacteria need media to settle in/on. You can mix them in by day and turn UV on by night.

It worked.
It is working. My tank looks great this morning (relatively). My thinking is I'm constantly adding the phyto/coral snow but constantly killing the dinos. I've been running the lights on their normal cycle and basting my corals and rocks.

When I finally shut off the UV I will continue the phyto/coral snow and see what happens.


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Old 03/04/2016, 03:29 AM   #3223
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I kept my UV going for months.


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Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
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Old 03/04/2016, 10:35 AM   #3224
TampaSnooker
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Hoping someone can save me going back through the thread:
When culturing skimmate, should the solution be kept in light or dark? Is aeration/circulation necessary?

I have to treat a skimmerless tank but have several other systems with skimmers that I can culture from. Unless there are other suggestions, I plan on collecting skimmate from other systems and adding dinos from the affected tank to the culture. I have not ID'd the species that we are fighting yet, but thought that if I added the species I want preyed upon, there is hope that there are predatory organisms in the skimmate and I would be able to monitor what grows in the culture. I can borrow a scope in a week or two to snoop around the culture to see what the dominant microbes are.


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With fronds like these, who needs anemones?
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Old 03/04/2016, 11:19 AM   #3225
taricha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TampaSnooker View Post
When culturing skimmate, should the solution be kept in light or dark?
Is aeration/circulation necessary?
I'd say Inconclusive. Try both, see what you get!
I've seen some benefits from both, but I think the sunlight one has been more effective. The sunlight one did "crash" eventually - grew sheets of green cyano and stopped killing dinos.
But before it did, I used it to seed a 10 gallon sand bed that's now full of ciliates of many varieties.

Quote:
I plan on collecting skimmate from other systems and adding dinos from the affected tank to the culture. I have not ID'd the species that we are fighting yet, but thought that if I added the species I want preyed upon, there is hope that there are predatory organisms in the skimmate and I would be able to monitor what grows in the culture. I can borrow a scope in a week or two to snoop around the culture to see what the dominant microbes are.
Sounds great! Look forward to seeing what you get.


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