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Old 05/29/2016, 01:19 PM   #3701
karimwassef
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DNA, sorry that the slow flow UV doesn't work in your tank.

It might be that we need to start matching different dino strains and the treatments that work for them.

Maybe even with a species like Ostis, some can be eradicated with UV. In your case, the fact that is seems to make it worse may indicate that you have multiple strains at once. The UV may be killing some, but that may encourage others to bloom to replace them.

Did you go dark with slow flow UV? Did you use a skimmer afterwards? It would help to understand your approach and align it with your strains.


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Old 05/30/2016, 07:11 AM   #3702
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Originally Posted by Kurt03 View Post
Youtube is still rendering the video but heres the link, it should be done soon.
https://youtu.be/ihIS2oTi6kc

Its kinda long but figured I would leave the whole video there and you can skip around as you wish. There is some good video around 5:30 at higher magnification. The moving object has some sort of moving tentacles/whiskers on its face(if its called a face!)
I had a tough time looking for a class of ciliates that could match it. It's not something I've seen in my tank. If I had to guess, (and I do, cause I have no idea) I would say it's a trocophore of some sort. That's not an ID, that's a larval stage of many kinds of worms, mollusks, echinoderms etc that has ciliated head region and can have a locomotive foot.

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Wonder if anyone has noticed an increase in no3 or po4 when the Dino's disappear?

It looks like mine are in a decline since I've been overfeeding and dosing po4. Has anyone else dosed po4 and noticed this? I'm closely testing po4 to make sure I don't add to much, but I'm adding .016 - .03 every few days on top of dosing oyster feast, flake food several times a day, reef chili, and whatever else I feel like. I still test below .02 on red sea and .003 on hanna ulr. Not sure which to believe but the same end result, it's pretty low! Something's eating all those nutrients, hopefully it's mostly good stuff
In my experience, I had to add a pretty substantial amount of N and P to keep them both elevated to the levels I wanted.

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Initially all samples I viewed were Ostreopsis on rock and sand they were stringy and produced bubbles. Bothered the heck out of corals since they made the polyps close up.After UV for some reason It got rid of them easily( I know that was not your experiance with UV).

That left Amphidinium to grow and produce a heavy mat but no string or bubbles. It grew all over the sand bed but virtually none on the rocks at all. These did not bother corals at all.
...I was very surprised to find all Amphidinium under the scope from then on.


I still belive these guys had something to do with it. Although I never saw them actually eat Dinos they did multiply in my tank and would see one with the naked eye from time to time in the water column and in my filter socks when changing them. Biggest I saw was 3/4" or so:


In hindsight I believe I had Osteopsis and Amphidinium since the beggining. I belive i got the easiest samples to get at first which were got from the strings with a q- tip.
After UV and the strings were gone, I was scooping sand and looking at those samples of all Amphidinium.
A few points. Quoted and bolded for the observations that are in line with everything I've seen from amphidinium and ostreopsis, and can help people ID their dinos a little more easily.
Mine went reverse. I never saw an osti until I got rid of my amphidinium.
And PREDATION. I think it's an under appreciated key to sand-dwelling dino control. That was the key for getting rid of my amphidinium, lots of dino predators that could remove the dinos once I slowed their growth rate. I've seen ciliates of several different genera having ingested dinos, and I've also seen your micro polycheate worms in my sand too, coinciding approximately with the time that the amphidinium disappeared from the sand. And although I've never seen large numbers of dinos in their opaque gut, I had lots of pods too. And the literature says pods (moreso) and ciliates (less, usually) are important predators of dinos in the wild.
Ostis on the other had, with their ability to attach in strings to high flow areas far away from the substrate does a good job of insulating them from predators. Not that some things won't eat them given the opportunity (I have shots of ciliates that love munching ostis) just that osti's growth habit lessens those opportunities.


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Old 05/30/2016, 08:06 AM   #3703
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As for my peroxide Osti testing, it might be a few weeks before I have anything else since the summer brings maintenance work time when my testing space can be put off limits.

The question seems pretty dang straightforward: What level of single-dose H2O2 kills ostreopsis? (Can figure out multi smaller doses, and what else dies at those doses later)
It's not that simple.
Going to list all doses in ml H2O2 per Liter of tank water.
Did concentrations of .8ml/L, .7, .6 and .5
Found that in each beaker 100% of dinos had stopped moving by 30 min after, and many of the ostis lost their theca. I thought hmmm, I guess tomorrow I can continue testing lower doses, but I better check first to see if they somehow recovered overnight (I had read some stuff about cells repairing oxidation damage in the dark).
Next day, the dinos that didn't lose their theca had recovered overnight in all 4 beakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combined Exposure to Hydrogen Peroxide and Light
Toxicity of H2O2 under Various Irradiances.
H2O2 was observed to be toxic in the dark, but light enhanced its toxicity substantially ... The light-induced effect was most significant in tests with Microcystis (a cyano),where an irradiance of 500 µmol m-2s-1 caused H2O2 toxicity at concentration about 20 times lower than in the dark. Even dim light (10 µmol m-2s-1) caused a 5-fold increase of peroxide toxicity. Light-dependent toxicity was also observed for the other two tested species (a diatom and a green algae), albeit at much higher concentrations of H2O2 (Figure 2)
I tried to attach the figure: column one is the cyano, , 2nd is green algae, 3rd is the diatom. Top to bottom is from zero light to bright light, the numbers in the columns are in mg of peroxide per liter to reach inhibition

So next the one question becomes 2: what peroxide level to kill ostis in the dark, and what level kills them in the light? And probably since I'm already dealing with what would pretty much be considered crazy peroxide levels for a tank, I'm just going to look into what levels kill ostis in a well-lit condition.

side note: I don't know if this is already recommended usage for H2O2 - I haven't gotten far enough in the peroxide treatment thread yet, but it seems like any application of peroxide to kill photosynthetic stuff should be done in bright light to reduce the amount of H2O2 required.


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Old 05/30/2016, 08:38 AM   #3704
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Do you feel like elevating no3 and po4 made a difference for you? Unless it's just timing I feel like it's the single thing I've done with the biggest impact. Could just be timing though.

If they have lost there theca are they dieing? I have a bunch that I don't see a theca around.



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Old 05/30/2016, 11:22 AM   #3705
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Do you feel like elevating no3 and po4 made a difference for you? Unless it's just timing I feel like it's the single thing I've done with the biggest impact. Could just be timing though.
No. And definitely yes.
Higher N and P did not make dinos stop. They do just fine with lots of N and P, but so does algae. Elevated N and P was crucial for growing lots of algae in my system, which provided large diversity of grazers of dinos, and the algae also consumed trace elements that the dinos needed and slowed dino growth.
So yes, elevated N and P was important.

Quote:
If they have lost there theca are they dieing? I have a bunch that I don't see a theca around.
Without theca, they can probably be presumed dead. However, some kinds are naturally unarmored ("naked") like amphidinium. Maybe symbiodinium too? Ostis, it's hard to see the theca unless it comes off, or is in the process of coming off. Some kinds, you can see the theca and grooves in it while it's in place.


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Old 05/30/2016, 11:28 AM   #3706
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Just got home and uncovered my tank again. I did a 3 day total blackout last week and then covered the tank back up with cardboard when I left to go camping. The rocks are even less brown than before but still not spotless like the sand. Still nothing stringy. So far so good though, no smell to the tank and i'm back to dosing Microbacter7 and phyto. Turning on moonlights now, i'll post an update in a few days.


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Old 05/30/2016, 11:39 AM   #3707
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Good to hear about the n+p. My thoughts as well with it more feeding competitors and not directly affecting the Dino's.

Ahh, I'm guessing I just couldn't see the theca on most of these, being I could see theca on some ostis I was thinking the ones I didn't see theca didn't have it. I guess I could add a drop of fresh water to the slide and see if I notice more theca's

The snot brown crap on the back glass of my tank is the unknown circle things, ostis are on egg crate and in a few stringy masses. I'll try another section on RC to get an I'd on those, might help in how to fight them.

I think I'm close to doing a big syphon cleaning of the tank, then lights out a few days and start scrubbing and moving coral to the rescue tank. Need to take a few samples of the rescue tank and make sure I see lots of micro fauna.

Thinking out loud here, any thoughts on the effect koralcolor would have? A couple other threads I'm following it seems to be helping control nuisance algae (also improving sps color), not sure if it would limit Dino competitors, or possibly limit Dino's.. for example, 100ppm nitrate sps tank, that still has solid colors and no algae. My brain is having a hard time accepting 100ppm no3 without adverse affects in a reef tank.....

I think the speculated ingredient that is making a difference is manganese.


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Old 05/30/2016, 11:41 AM   #3708
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Just got home and uncovered my tank again. I did a 3 day total blackout last week and then covered the tank back up with cardboard when I left to go camping. The rocks are even less brown than before but still not spotless like the sand. Still nothing stringy. So far so good though, no smell to the tank and i'm back to dosing Microbacter7 and phyto. Turning on moonlights now, i'll post an update in a few days.
Scope a scraping of brown area, might just be diatoms, hopefully! Awesome news though!


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Old 05/30/2016, 01:27 PM   #3709
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Scope a scraping of brown area, might just be diatoms, hopefully! Awesome news though!
Not diatoms, unfortunately. I am, however, starting to see some diversity I haven't seen in any previous slides. In the first sample, I found some kind of worm with phytoplankton in its gut. Found more Amphidinium on the rock among the motionless, yellow discs. I also found a diatom or two, which I haven't seen before this. I also noticed the brown stuff on the rock has faded to a more light tan color where it was dark brown before I left. Before, I had to scrape with my fingernail to get anything off the rock, and now everything comes right off as if it were detritus.

I'm also seeing some kind of fast moving, yellow pill-shaped things which appear to be able to bend and change shape. They're roughly the same size as our mystery yellow discs. The Amphidinium near the center of the frame in video 2 can be used as a size reference.










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Old 05/31/2016, 10:54 AM   #3710
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Tagging along for help. Recently had a dino outbreak. Ive tried raising ph to 8.4, blackout and h202. In the process of pulling rock that does not have sps and dipping in freshwater. Microscope coming today for identification..


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Old 05/31/2016, 04:56 PM   #3711
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Tagging along for help. Recently had a dino outbreak. Ive tried raising ph to 8.4, blackout and h202. In the process of pulling rock that does not have sps and dipping in freshwater. Microscope coming today for identification..
Nice stringy dinos. Just for our information, what was the blackout length and what was the peroxide dosing regimen (dose per tank volume, frequency, how long)?
Water params? Nitrates & Phosphates especially.

You're doing the right thing. Manual removal of the vast majority is important for whatever steps come next.

edit:
Also, this is my own personal curiosity. Most everyone's dinos seem to look less bad just as lights come on, and at their worst after several hours of full lights, but I haven't actually observed a system with a big stringy mess, and how it changes through a day.
Do you have pics right at lights on, vs afternoon full light?



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Old 05/31/2016, 07:33 PM   #3712
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First 4 weeks i spent cleaning off the rock with a toothbrush. Dinos would return every 3-4 days. Then i tried a 72 hour blackout. I saw no reduction after the blackout. Next came the h202. I started 1ml per 10 gallons once a day and saw no change for 2 weeks straight. I bumped up to 3ml per 10 gallons for the next two weeks, again no change. I tried dosing carbon via vitamin c and saw a huge increase in 24 hours. I also swapped out brs gfo for rhowaphos. (No change noticed). I spent a couple weeks doing 20% wc and they seemed to come back faster. I now have gone 3 weeks no water change and they seem to come back slower. That picture was around 5pm after a week of ignoring the tank and a day after I forgot to turn my mp40 back on. I also bought kno3 and dosed nitrates from .02 to 2ppm. The battle has been going strong for 5 months.

The tank is a 65 gallon rr with 10 gallon sump. The tank is barebottom (HDPE) and the dinos are only on the rock. All the rock started a base rock from reefcleaners. Maxspect razor 160 led, reef octopus nwb150 and mp40. I only dose kalkwasser atm. Dinos started after dosing aquavitro fuel.

Paramters.
80 degrees
PH 8.3-8.4
1.025 salinity
420 cal
9 alk
1320 mag
Phos 0
Ammonia/nitrite 0
Nitrate .02 at start, 2 now

What I've tried
Blackout - no impact
Reduced feedings - no impact
H202 - no impact
Increased feeding - more film algae
Increased nitrates - no impact
Daily water change - increase in dinos
Vit c dosing - increase in dinos
Rhowaphos- no impact
Remove carbon - huge increase dinos (ran out for 2 days)


I have a hunch the dinos are brought on by a bacteria inbalance and fed by carbon. I just bought the zeovit system to see what happens..



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Old 06/01/2016, 09:40 AM   #3713
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...


I have a hunch the dinos are brought on by a bacteria inbalance and fed by carbon. I just bought the zeovit system to see what happens..
Mine seems to like to eat cyano. Only time I ever notice dinos is when I get a bit of cyano.


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Old 06/01/2016, 12:05 PM   #3714
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Started to see some dusting on my sand again and decided to take a sample before getting too discouraged. I was surprised to see almost nothing but diatoms in the slide. I am seeing the occasional Amphidinium but the diatoms present are far more abundant. Is it okay to have a small number of these dinos? Are they present in small amounts in everyone's tank? Or will they eventually bounce back since some still remain?


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Old 06/01/2016, 12:18 PM   #3715
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I had the same question after testing a second tank I'm going to use to rescue coral from my Dino tank. Tested a small patch of what I thought was cyano just to make sure and there is some ostis in it. Allot of other stuff though. My guess is that it's common in new setups and recovering systems, and is OK as long as numbers are small. I'd love to hear someone else's opinion.



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Old 06/01/2016, 12:32 PM   #3716
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I bumped up to 3ml [H2O2] per 10 gallons for the next two weeks, again no change. I tried dosing carbon via vitamin c and saw a huge increase in 24 hours.

Dinos started after dosing aquavitro fuel.

Paramters.
Phos 0
Nitrate .02 at start, 2 now
Thanks for the report on a higher daily H2O2 dose that didn't work, and this thread has seen lots of reports of carbon dosing being associated with onset of dinos. Personally, my crazy high carbon dosing (50% higher than TMZ recommended amount) is what I consider the biggest factor in my dino onset. Interesting that Vit C has same result as other carbon dosing.
You aren't the first to be dosing aquavitro fuel (it's a mix of lots of difference vitamins and trace elements) when dinos arrived.

If you decide to go "dirty method" I'd recommend elevating both N and P.

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I have a hunch the dinos are brought on by a bacteria inbalance and fed by carbon. I just bought the zeovit system to see what happens..
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2459 View Post
Mine seems to like to eat cyano. Only time I ever notice dinos is when I get a bit of cyano.
Cyano provides a lot of things that dinos could be interested in. It's an N source, it can capture Fe, and it produces and exports B12.

It seems like in systems dominated by bacteria (carbon dosing, zeo, etc) dinos have an ability to shape the bacterial community to their liking and can thrive to problem levels.

This is a super-crazy-oversimplification but it really seems to be generally true in our systems: call it Rock-Paper-Scissors - Dinos beat bacteria beats algae beats dinos.

If you have lots of algae, dinos don't thrive. If you grow lots of bacteria to outcompete algae, then you are at risk of the possibility of dinos taking control of the bacteria.


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Old 06/01/2016, 12:47 PM   #3717
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Started to see some dusting on my sand again and decided to take a sample before getting too discouraged. I was surprised to see almost nothing but diatoms in the slide. I am seeing the occasional Amphidinium but the diatoms present are far more abundant.
A growth of brown dusting on the sand in the form of diatoms is a very positive shift. Lots of reports of dinos followed by diatoms, almost no reports of diatoms replaced by dinos.

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I had the same question after testing a second tank I'm going to use to rescue coral from my Dino tank. Tested a small patch of what I thought was cyano just to make sure and there is some ostis in it. Allot of other stuff though.
Kill it with fire. okay, slight overreaction but this thread is filled with accounts of cyano growth giving way to lots of dinos. If I ever see cyano in my display again, I'd spot treat it with peroxide on the spot. Cyano is about 10x more sensitive to peroxide than anything else in the tank, and a 1/2 ml here and a ml there applied directly to the cyano mat makes quick work of it.


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Old 06/01/2016, 01:00 PM   #3718
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Ok, I'll break out the flame thrower! Does it look like cyano to you in my picture? Also wanted to thank you for all the time you spend responding to our questions!

I just stumbled across this, any thoughts on it IDing the round unknown spheres?
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/natureplus/blog...encing-results



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Old 06/01/2016, 01:37 PM   #3719
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A growth of brown dusting on the sand in the form of diatoms is a very positive shift. Lots of reports of dinos followed by diatoms, almost no reports of diatoms replaced by dinos.
This is very encouraging to hear. I just scrubbed all the rocks best I could with a toothbrush and did another 25% WC. Added a fresh baggie of Purigen and another 2x amount of ROX carbon. I upped my moonlight intensity very slightly (from 1 Dark Blue to 2 DB and 1 Blue), trying to take it slow and steady. I think I might introduce a very low intensity full spectrum to the tank this weekend for only 1 hour and see how that goes.


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Old 06/01/2016, 02:01 PM   #3720
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Ok, I'll break out the flame thrower! Does it look like cyano to you in my picture? Also wanted to thank you for all the time you spend responding to our questions!

I just stumbled across this, any thoughts on it IDing the round unknown spheres?
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/natureplus/blog...encing-results
yep. That's cyano in your pic. according to algaeid.com it's an oscillatoria.
Thanks. I can't resist a tricky puzzle. Wish all our responses were actual answers, but for every handful of cases that establish clear trends (slow flow UV kills ostis!) there's a frustrating exception (DNA's super-mutant ostreopsis that's immune to a million watt slow flow UV for months...[horror movie narrator]...coming this summer to a LFS near you AAAAGH! )
Just understand that there isn't a consensus here on most of this stuff - getting closer though. Just trends, reports, and finding patterns in lots of people's experiences, and testing which patterns hold up to more intense scrutiny.


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Old 06/01/2016, 02:20 PM   #3721
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Thanks for the report on a higher daily H2O2 dose that didn't work, and this thread has seen lots of reports of carbon dosing being associated with onset of dinos. Personally, my crazy high carbon dosing (50% higher than TMZ recommended amount) is what I consider the biggest factor in my dino onset. Interesting that Vit C has same result as other carbon dosing.
You aren't the first to be dosing aquavitro fuel (it's a mix of lots of difference vitamins and trace elements) when dinos arrived.

If you decide to go "dirty method" I'd recommend elevating both N and P.





Cyano provides a lot of things that dinos could be interested in. It's an N source, it can capture Fe, and it produces and exports B12.

It seems like in systems dominated by bacteria (carbon dosing, zeo, etc) dinos have an ability to shape the bacterial community to their liking and can thrive to problem levels.

This is a super-crazy-oversimplification but it really seems to be generally true in our systems: call it Rock-Paper-Scissors - Dinos beat bacteria beats algae beats dinos.

If you have lots of algae, dinos don't thrive. If you grow lots of bacteria to outcompete algae, then you are at risk of the possibility of dinos taking control of the bacteria.
Oh, I don't know about carbon dosing + 0 algae spurring on dinos. I've carbon dosed as my main means to reduce nitrates and maintain low phosphates. 0 algae and it's only when I do something stupid that cyano comes out and dinos follow. Otherwise I don't see either. I like to harvest algae but have gone long stretches not doing that either so 0 algae. Vinegar, a skimmer, and consistent water changes has been my constant.


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Old 06/01/2016, 03:53 PM   #3722
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Actually, DNA's Ostis feed on UV and get more powerful!! There's the horror story.

Like shooting lasers at Gojira and having him get bigger.


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Old 06/01/2016, 05:33 PM   #3723
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Wish all our responses were actual answers, but for every handful of cases that establish clear trends (slow flow UV kills ostis!) there's a frustrating exception (DNA's super-mutant ostreopsis that's immune to a million watt slow flow UV for months...[horror movie narrator]...coming this summer to a LFS near you AAAAGH! )
Just to be very clear, I suspect that the Ostreopsis is quite vulnerable to UV if it goes through the filter. There's no reason to believe that the dinoflagellates are entering the UV filter at a rate high enough to be of interest, though.


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Old 06/01/2016, 11:29 PM   #3724
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I opened my tank up on Friday afternoon. Looks good. Still have not turned lights on higher than 10% blues. Also started dosing microbater as well. Ran rowasphos for the last 3 days of black out. Going to pull it out tomorrow and add carbon to the reactor. So far looks a ton better all my white rock is back to white with no signs of Dino. Started my fuge this weekend as well as going to install an ats up flow as well. More to come
Update.

Pulled the uv off line along with the rowasphos. Added some mangroves and an up flow ats. Turned my blues only up 10% per day currently at 40% blues and 5% whites for 4 hours a day. Run the ats and refug light for 8-12 hours on the off cycle of display. Still dosing microbater and algaefix marine and skimmer. Turning of the skimmer for 4 hours after dose. So far so good. What is left of the stringy Dino's is turning clear and white. I don't want to suck them out manually because I want to see what's left die and make sure it doesn't recover. I have not done a water change. Only top off with fresh ro/di. Also replacing Polly every 3 days. Added pods and cheato as well. Just my small price of the puzzle


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Old 06/02/2016, 11:06 AM   #3725
taricha
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 535
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
Just to be very clear, I suspect that the Ostreopsis is quite vulnerable to UV if it goes through the filter. There's no reason to believe that the dinoflagellates are entering the UV filter at a rate high enough to be of interest, though.
That is a very reasonable conclusion. But it wouldn't be much of a horror movie. :-)


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