Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 06/30/2016, 07:27 AM   #3876
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
I've had no changes to pH or ORP after dosing either 1st or 2nd dose so far. Nitrates on day 2 haven't changed (~2.5) and PO4 came up as undetectable via hanna ULR.


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2016, 07:16 PM   #3877
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Nitrates still 2.5
Phosphates 0.0122

Used the Aquazole tonight. I scooped up some tank water and placed in 10 250mg pills. Stirred with a spoon and it was fully dissolved in about a minute or two and poured that into the tank.

Day 3 2.5 grams done...

Well, then I got curious and plopped 10 more pills directly in the sump. They sank right to the bottom and started disolving instantly. Seems like a very easy way to dose it.

Now day 3 5 grams done...

I'm going to get a sample tonight to put under the microscope and see what's there and in what shape.

Tomorrow I won't dose anything.

I'll clean out the skimmer as the body is caked and bring it back up to normal operations and place a filter sock on the siphon line going into the sump. Then start blowing off the rocks.


I'll still leave the automatic water change off and carbon dosing cut in half.


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2016, 08:32 PM   #3878
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangeDejavu View Post
Interesting little write-up on copepods and dinos: http://www.scienceisart.com/dockbook.../a2012-09.html
Unrelated, but I am very interested to hear how your amphidinium carterae do with metronidazole.
The reason is that it will either support or shoot down one of the proposed mechanisms for how the drug could affect some organisms.
It goes like this. (I'll do the citation thing when I'm not on my phone.)
There is a protein that is crucial in the photosynthetic process called ferredoxin. As you guess from the name, it's iron based, and one of the largest iron demands of photosynthesis.
Metro is highly reactive with iron in general and specifically reactive with ferredoxin. This is the proposed action of metro in this theory.
(I'm a little fuzzy on whether the reaction inhibits or destroys the photosynthetic machinery)
Dinos stole their photosynthetic machines at different times from different things, so they don't all have the same equipment.
Some dinos, when they need to - like if nutrients and iron are low - can make a substitute for ferredoxin called flavodoxin.
Flavodoxin does the photosynthetic work without iron and without the interference from metro.
The ferredoxin/flavodoxin switch in many cases accounts for which organisms are metro targets and which aren't affected.
There's little info on which dinos can and which can't, but amphidinium carterae can make flavodoxin.

Therefore, your amphidinium carterae should survive the metronidazole treatment....

Or else that is not the mechanism involved with this drug interaction.


taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2016, 09:11 PM   #3879
StrangeDejavu
Registered Member
 
StrangeDejavu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Posts: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
Unrelated, but I am very interested to hear how your amphidinium carterae do with metronidazole.
The reason is that it will either support or shoot down one of the proposed mechanisms for how the drug could affect some organisms.
It goes like this. (I'll do the citation thing when I'm not on my phone.)
There is a protein that is crucial in the photosynthetic process called ferredoxin. As you guess from the name, it's iron based, and one of the largest iron demands of photosynthesis.
Metro is highly reactive with iron in general and specifically reactive with ferredoxin. This is the proposed action of metro in this theory.
(I'm a little fuzzy on whether the reaction inhibits or destroys the photosynthetic machinery)
Dinos stole their photosynthetic machines at different times from different things, so they don't all have the same equipment.
Some dinos, when they need to - like if nutrients and iron are low - can make a substitute for ferredoxin called flavodoxin.
Flavodoxin does the photosynthetic work without iron and without the interference from metro.
The ferredoxin/flavodoxin switch in many cases accounts for which organisms are metro targets and which aren't affected.
There's little info on which dinos can and which can't, but amphidinium carterae can make flavodoxin.

Therefore, your amphidinium carterae should survive the metronidazole treatment....

Or else that is not the mechanism involved with this drug interaction.
Well I hope for my Dad's tanks' sake that a different mechanism is at work here. It's late now, but i'll get two samples tomorrow and see if I can notice any changes in their behavior/appearance and try to follow up with pics and/or video.


__________________
BioCube 29 - AI Prime - MP10QD
StrangeDejavu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/01/2016, 04:43 PM   #3880
StrangeDejavu
Registered Member
 
StrangeDejavu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Posts: 416
Looks like we finally have some before/after shots on a microscopic level of Ostreopsis before and after Metro treatment. These were posted by Twilliard of user Alanc425's dinos, from samples before and after treatment. Just beautiful.

Pre-Metro:



After Metro:






__________________
BioCube 29 - AI Prime - MP10QD
StrangeDejavu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/01/2016, 08:09 PM   #3881
Kurt03
Registered Member
 
Kurt03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,614
Awesome! How many days after first dose are those pics?


Kurt03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/01/2016, 09:15 PM   #3882
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 525
Day 4, just over 76 hours since first metro dose.
Everything is the same about the two test beakers except the medicine.
Here is my control beaker (no metro)- brown string developed yesterday and bubbles visible today.

Here is the metro beaker (higher than recommended dose) - no strings or bubbles, but there are dinos in brown clumps on bottom


So there is visible macroscopic difference. However, under the microscope, no obvious cell morphology differences between the two beakers.
Looks to me like you'll see it with your eyes before you see it with the scope.
Control


Metro


Finally, here's the dinos from my tank wrung out of filter floss into tiny beaker


Under the scope, still evidence of reproduction/splitting



taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/02/2016, 10:48 AM   #3883
Kurt03
Registered Member
 
Kurt03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,614
Can't wait to see them start exploding!


Kurt03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/06/2016, 03:54 PM   #3884
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,511
When I tried Peroxide a few years back it was obviously not doing any real damage to my Ostis.
Now you have verified it's ineffectiveness so we can safely forget about it.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/06/2016, 07:10 PM   #3885
Kurt03
Registered Member
 
Kurt03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,614
8 days in, I'm still seeing osteoporosis strings. Need to put under scope again to confirm.

Tick tock. Playing the waiting game. This tank is empty so I'll do an extended lights out if needed.

My rescue tank so far is doing well and currently the coral look cleaned up so will be moving to display soon.


Kurt03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/06/2016, 08:17 PM   #3886
StrangeDejavu
Registered Member
 
StrangeDejavu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Posts: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt03 View Post
8 days in, I'm still seeing osteoporosis strings. Need to put under scope again to confirm.

Tick tock. Playing the waiting game. This tank is empty so I'll do an extended lights out if needed.

My rescue tank so far is doing well and currently the coral look cleaned up so will be moving to display soon.
Unfortunately, Twilliard confirmed his Ostreopsis ovata left its cystic state and began multiplying again on week 4. We know Metro leads to the destruction of Ostis currently in the tank, but the question that has to be answered now is: Was this simply an existing cyst coming out as usual, or did Metronidazole force them to encyst? If so, how long should the tank be dosed until you're confident you got them all? And does Metro affect the cyst at higher doses? Those questions haven't been answered yet but will in the future, i'm sure.


__________________
BioCube 29 - AI Prime - MP10QD
StrangeDejavu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/07/2016, 09:40 AM   #3887
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Run down Update

Prep
Dumped in enough food to cause a massive outbreak of cyano and dinos that would normally last at least 1-2 months

Before Dosing
  • Turned off Automatic Water Changes
  • Took out GAC (would have taken out any GFO too if I had any)
  • No ozone (same would apply to UV or dosing H2O2)
  • Cut carbon dosing in half
  • Tuned down the skimmer but kept it aerating the water
  • Kept ATS online
  • Kept ATO online
  • Kept feeding as normal (a lot)

Day 1 (Night of July 28th)
  • 5 grams Metroplex dosed
  • (This works out to around 250mg per 10 gallons per day)

Day 2 (Night of July 29th)
  • 5 grams Metroplex dosed

Day 3 (July 30th)
  • 5 grams (20 pills) Aquazole dosed
  • sample under microscope shows active peridinium dinos


Day 4 (July 1st)
  • Added filter sock.(100 micron felt. 4" ring by 14" length)
  • Blew of all surfaces
  • Changed sock
  • Brought skimmer back online
  • 5 grams Aquazole dosed

Day 5 (July 2nd)
  1. Changing filter sock 3 times per day
  2. Blowing off all surfaces in the evening
  3. Minor grow back of visual dinos
  4. extremely minor to no growth back of cyano
  5. 5 grams Aquazole dosed

Day 6 (July 3rd)
  1. 5 grams Aquazole dosed.
  2. Very minor growth again.
  3. Changing out 100 micron felt sock 3x per day still.
  4. Blowing off all surfaces at night
  5. Day 6 (night of July 4th)
  6. Very minor growth again.
  7. Changing out 100 micron felt sock 3x per day still.
  8. Blowing off all surfaces at night
  9. Samples show no recognizable or moving peridinium dinos. A lot more much smaller flagelet phytoplankton of some kind.
  10. No dosing done

Day 7 (July 4th)
  • 5 grams Metroplex dosed
  • No blowing off of surfaces done
  • Skimmer still online
  • Filter sock changed out twice
  • Very minor amounts of visual dino growth on rocks

Day 8 (July 5th)
  • 5 grams Metroplex dosed
  • No blowing off of surfaces done
  • Skimmer still online
  • Filter sock changed out twice
  • Extremly minor amounts of visual dino growth on rocks
  • No real change to nitrates or phosphates through out. Possible slight increase in PO4 tonight.



__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank

Last edited by jason2459; 07/07/2016 at 09:54 AM.
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/07/2016, 10:52 AM   #3888
SnowManSnow
Registered Member
 
SnowManSnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 973
keep up the good work on this stuff guys. defeating this scourge will be a HUGE win for the hobby.


__________________
It's dark as the inside of a cow out here! - Mark Twain

Current Tank Info: 120 MRC acrylic Tank (love it). Constellation T5s Mixed Reef
SnowManSnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/07/2016, 11:40 PM   #3889
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 525
Today was day 10 for me. I dosed according to the recommendation for 3 days.
I wring the ostis out from my filter floss hanging in front of my power head into a tiny beaker every day (or two).
Some progress by that metric.

(Day 4 and 8 had two days' growth when wrung out)


taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 01:09 AM   #3890
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,511
Even though day 10 looks promising they have always bounced back from everything else.
I my experiments I'm not trying to get rid of them completely, but reducing them to invisible numbers and keeping them that way.

If we are not figuring out why we are able to keep a bloom going for years I'm pretty sure they will be coming back again soon.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 06:57 AM   #3891
dustinkimpel
Registered Member
 
dustinkimpel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinkimpel View Post
Alright guys update, My dinos are gone. Knock on wood. I'm up to running my lights 6 hours a day and no dinos have returned and my corals a flourishing. Things I've done:

Removed Sand bed kept BB
Removed and soft scrubbed all rock
Dosed H202 for 5 days
Went lights out for 6 days
Added new sump, skimmer and attached Coralife UV sterilizer to return line.
Added 3 new fish
heavy water changes during the lights out period sucking out all visible dino (I know people say wc feed them but it worked for me)
One of the new fish had ich so pulled all fish and put them in hospital tank (maybe the ich had something to do with getting rid of the dino?)
Tank currently just has coral and a cleaner shrimp in it for the next 72 days.

I'll post pics later to show how good my tank is looking, not a dino in sight.

Good luck guys, feel like I've won this battle
For anyone interested this is what worked for me. Haven't had Dino in over a year. If anyone wants pictures of my tank currently running BB just ask and I'll get some.


__________________
55 Gallon Reef ,Full Apex, Eshopps 75 Sump, Eshopps 75 Skimmer, 2 Jebao RW-8, JBJ Auto Top-Off, 2 Aquastar 165W LEDs
Yes, my CHEAPO lights support:Carpet Anemone, Torch Coral, Frogspawn, Chalice, Zoa
dustinkimpel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 11:23 AM   #3892
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinkimpel View Post
For anyone interested this is what worked for me. Haven't had Dino in over a year. If anyone wants pictures of my tank currently running BB just ask and I'll get some.
Keep in mind there's a lot of different kinds of dinos. This may not work for all. It may have also just pushed them back from being visible with the naked eye in the tank. 99% of the time my tank is that way but they are still there.

That said that's awesome you were successful with that treatment and if anyone tries it I hope it works for them as well.


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 03:37 PM   #3893
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,583
I'm almost tempted to say that we should stop using the word "Dino" and should instead use "Ostis" or "Amphidinium" or "Zooxanthelle" or even "Oodinium" for velvet disease in fish.

Saying Dinos is like saying "bacteria"

By the way- you can buy dinos for $7.75 from a bio lab... Oops, I mean Amphidinium.
http://www.carolina.com/catalog/deta...FYOBaQodrK4Ktw


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 03:38 PM   #3894
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,583
Hey. Check out section 21.3.3 in this book on fighting "dinos"

https://books.google.com/books?id=-7...ellate&f=false

Theme - grow ulva seaweed and the bacteria on it kills dinos...


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 05:11 PM   #3895
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I'm almost tempted to say that we should stop using the word "Dino" and should instead use "Ostis" or "Amphidinium" or "Zooxanthelle" or even "Oodinium" for velvet disease in fish.

Saying Dinos is like saying "bacteria"
Couldn't agree more.
Ostreopsis is basically invulnerable to Peroxide, but amphidinium carterae are done in by around 0.2 ml/liter (according to lit. Haven't tried it)

The most common amphidinium species in our tanks is invulnerable to UV, because it never leaves the sand, but ostreopsis is susceptible because it scatters into water column nightly.

Amphidinium is smaller, unarmoured, less toxic, stays close to rock and sand and is vulnerable to lots of predators. ostreopsis is big, toxic, armored, grows in high-flow strings away from sand and rock so gets eaten by very few predators (mostly just pods). I found some ciliates that would eat ostis, but they didn't grow on it. Bummer :-(

We could all go on, but in terms of most interventions people would try, they just are more different than similar.
The ID down to genera tells you something. "Dinos" tells you very little.

Prorocentrum haven't been played with as much, but they are larger, armored, grow in high flow up on rocks etc, so I'd treat it like ostis until better info shows up.

Symbiodinium / zooxanthellae / similar are small unarmoured, less toxic, and so I'd probably treat them like amphidinium until we know better.

BTW: Did we know that scientific lit has been looking for, but still can't find any evidence of ostreopsis mixotrophy.
Wonder if we could get by just treating it like a photoautotroph.

And that might be the thing they ("dinos") have in common. Light requirements. Which is one reason to be fascinated with the metro treatment. Twilliard says it attacks DNA. And it does in some target organisms. In others it attacks a working photosynthesis system, which is what I think/hope is actually happening.

More on that if it pans out.


taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 05:45 PM   #3896
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,583
taricha - maybe you should put a matrix table together ... name the dinos on top (left to right), and then the control variables/properties on the left (up down)...

armor
vulnerability to UV
vulnerability to Peroxide
vulnerability to Cilliate predation
Toxicity
benthic vs. night floating
Mixotrophic
.....

then we can add to the table as we learn more


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 06:20 PM   #3897
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I'm almost tempted to say that we should stop using the word "Dino" and should instead use "Ostis" or "Amphidinium" or "Zooxanthelle" or even "Oodinium" for velvet disease in fish.

Saying Dinos is like saying "bacteria"

By the way- you can buy dinos for $7.75 from a bio lab... Oops, I mean Amphidinium.
http://www.carolina.com/catalog/deta...FYOBaQodrK4Ktw
Wish we could just call them by name. Most can't see them to identify them and those that can see them is still hard to identify them as many are so very similar and have many variations with in families.

Like I believe I have Peridinium sp. but what kind I don't know as there's various var. types of Peridinium and its entirely possible its not even peridinium. lol


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 08:03 PM   #3898
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2459 View Post
those that can see them is still hard to identify them as many are so very similar and have many variations with in families.

Like I believe I have Peridinium sp. but what kind I don't know as there's various var. types of Peridinium and its entirely possible its not even peridinium. lol
I wondered about your ID as well. Can't think of anyone else who had them. Pretty unusual to have a weird one like that.
I've looked a little bit at your pics and vids, I don't have a better ID.
I wonder if there is something cheap that could be used to stain the cellulose theca to help ID.


taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 08:14 PM   #3899
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,583
someone should set up a webservice where you send sample of your water and they ID the critters in them.

I think there's a gel that you can add to water that harders into a clear plastic and quickly traps everything like "on glass". Then the service can slice the plastic disc and take images and ID the bugs.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2016, 08:19 PM   #3900
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
taricha - maybe you should put a matrix table together ... name the dinos on top (left to right), and then the control variables/properties on the left (up down)...

armor
vulnerability to UV
vulnerability to Peroxide
vulnerability to Cilliate predation
Toxicity
benthic vs. night floating
Mixotrophic
.....

then we can add to the table as we learn more
Yep. I could do something like that. At least start it as a shared document that can be expanded on.

I'll go back and re-read the "stupid dinos" document that was started by ivy and see if there's a way the two can be set up to complement each other.


taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:55 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014