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Old 11/04/2014, 08:38 AM   #376
jedimasterben
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DAYUM this thing is gigantic. Also took almost $40 in plumbing since it only has hose adapters


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Dinoflagellates are the kiss of death.

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Old 11/10/2014, 12:50 PM   #377
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Well, last Wednesday morning I unplugged all of my lighting, so only ambient light (measured 10 PAR coming in through the blinds in the morning to the front glass of the tank) for three days, and on Thursday I took a powerhead to all of the rocks and sand and stirred everything up in hopes to get as many dinos through the UV sterilizer as possible. On Friday night when I got home, I noticed that with the room light on, the tank was awfully yellow, so I flipped on a cool white CFL I have over the tank (which gives off a very pretty, bright white, and the water and everything was definitely yellow. I had recently replaced my ROX 0.8 carbon and I'm running two 400mL bags of Purigen, but that didn't stop this stuff, the Purigen was 100% pee yellow, so I pulled it out and started the regen process and put in a full cup of ROX 0.8, which cleared the water up within a couple of hours.

Plugged all of the lights back in on Saturday morning, and on Sunday I took a couple of water samples and put under a microscope. The water column was perfectly clean, nothing in it, but when I took some schmutz (basically leftover dino mucousy gunk) from a dead gorgonian and put it under 100x mag, I noticed tons of dead dinos and maybe half a dozen live ones. I scraped a bit off of a rock and put it under, and it had only a few dead but a bunch of live ones.

One unknown would be if the UV would actually kill the dinos outright or if it would just do as it is named and just sterilize them, which wouldn't really be apparent for 30 days according to the research by DNA above, assuming that I am plagued by O. ovata and not another species that would behave slightly differently.

At any rate, going forward, I will more than likely continue to do routine blackouts, I'm considering as much as weekly, every Wednesday through Friday, or possibly every other week, all the while keeping flow high in the tank to keep them suspended and keep flow through the sump (which has 100% of evertything go through the UV sterilizer ) at around 370GPH to keep stage one sterilization going.


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Dinoflagellates are the kiss of death.

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Old 11/11/2014, 12:12 AM   #378
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Quote:
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When it's cultured it's reported to divide exponentially on day 10 from culture start, to be stationary on day 18 and senescent on day 25, not being able to divide anymore.
This would indicate that individual cells have at least a months lifespan.
I may have read this wrong and probably should have referred to a culture instead of individual cells.
One can image tracking a single rapidly splitting cell is problematic.

I've read a lot of articles on dinos, but there are still so many unanswered basic questions.
The scientist I've emailed don't reply and the dinos are happy and they prosper.


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Old 11/15/2014, 09:09 AM   #379
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.
.
For those that didn't know already.
The life cycle of dinoflagellates, including all possible described transitions.
.



Pellicle cysts are temporary.
Resting cysts are long term.

Diploid cells contain two complete sets (2n) of chromosomes.
Haploid cells have half the number of chromosomes (n) as diploid.

Meiosis is a specialized type of cell division which reduces the chromosome number by half.

----

Since cysts are dinos defense against hostile environment they are my pick for this weekends reading on the subject.
Below are some interesting points from what I read.

Indeed, during dinoflagellate evolution the need to adapt to fluctuating environments and/or to seasonality is thought to have driven the development of this life cycle stage. Most protists form dormant cysts in order to withstand starvation and UV damage. However, there are enormous differences in the main phenotypic, physiological and resistance properties of each dinoflagellate species cysts.
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The data from those studies suggest that P and N levels determine the type of cyst produced during reproduction: pellicle cysts under phosphate-limited conditions and resting cysts during nitrate limitation.
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Among all environmental factors, nutrient limitation and changes in temperature are the most common triggers for resting cyst formation.
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The same study also suggested that dinoflagellate cysts are able to detect chemical signals emitted by predators.
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The survival of pellicle cysts after passage through the digestive tract of Crassostrea gigas has been reported.
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Resting Cyst Formation as a Defense against Parasitic Attack.
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Similarly, pellicle cyst formation by the Alexandrium catenella in response to phosphorous limitation was reported.

Here is the whole artice.
http://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/2/1/11/htm


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Old 11/15/2014, 09:19 AM   #380
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Pants do you have numbers of the samples you have received on each species of dinoflagellates?

Ostreopsis sp.
Amphidinium sp.
Prorocentrum sp.

These seem to be the most common, but what is the ratio and how much falls into the "other" category?


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Old 11/15/2014, 10:00 AM   #381
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I have also a pure chemical question.

My calcium levels have stayed below 400 for years and for a few months I've replenished every drop with kalkwasser on top of what my calcium reactor produces. The levels have been at 400 for a month and that is a record for my tank. Alk is at 8 and Mg at 1350.
I know the correction methods and have tried them without a long term success.

I'm looking into possibilities that my long term toxic dino soup could have an effect on calcium levels or the test kits.
My tank has a history of slow and no SPS coral growth so perhaps there is a connection.
I've also noticed that dinos have a big impact on SPS coral health.


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Old 11/15/2014, 11:29 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA View Post
Pants do you have numbers of the samples you have received on each species of dinoflagellates?

Ostreopsis sp.
Amphidinium sp.
Prorocentrum sp.

These seem to be the most common, but what is the ratio and how much falls into the "other" category?
I have so few numbers its pretty meaningless (less than 10). I sent out more than 50 mailers when I was really actively looking into this but so few people followed up and mailed it back that I gave up.

I've yet to see a bloom of Prorocentrum in a reef tank. I find them in all reef tanks, and I've seen youtube videos of aquarium blooms that are very obviously Prorocentrum.

I've seen Gambierdiscus twice. This is closely related to Ostreopsis. Its a delicate shipper so its always arrived dead.

I also have repeatedly seen a tiny dinoflagellate that I can't ID morphologically. I need to do a phylogenetic analysis, but I haven't gotten good DNA yet. It would be easiest if I could get a sample from someone locally so it doesn't die off in shipping.


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Old 11/15/2014, 12:31 PM   #383
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[IMG][IMG]http://i58.*******.com/2m5biut.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]

i think this is dino in my qt tank.

I was going to give everything a freshwater bath for a few minutes and transfer all livestock to a diffrent qt tank.

Anyway to kill them completly and not have to cycle the tank again?

Or should i redoo the whole tank?


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Old 11/15/2014, 01:52 PM   #384
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If your species of dino encysts then you'll need to pretty much nuke the system. If it doesn't it might be possible kill the dinos without killing your biofilter. Since it is a QT tank how are you handling filtration?


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Old 11/15/2014, 11:56 PM   #385
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I agree that it looks like dinos, but I'm not sure I see any of the typical bubbles in the strands. Might be worth sending Pants a sample to find out for sure before you start down the path of any eradication method.

And I'd definitely encourage you to try some of the things others have been successful with before nuking the tank. No one method works for everyone, but there are enough reports of success with H2O2, Algae-X, UV, CupriSorb, algae scrubbers and a number of other approaches that nuking your tank may not be necessary. It's worth a shot in my opinion.


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Old 11/16/2014, 12:16 AM   #386
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Those definetely look like dinos.
If I have this right and they are photosynthesizing, oxygen bubbles would be a byproduct and lifting the strings straight up in slow current.
If there are no bubbles you still have dinos. They are just using other methods of feeding at the time.


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Old 11/16/2014, 12:37 AM   #387
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Are there more dino-reefers out there having problems with their parameters?

My system holds 400g, but my kalk stirrer and calcium reactor designed to maintain 2400g are not keeping up.
Correcting the levels only holds for a short time and 400 is the highest calcium level I've been able to maintain recently, but it used to be lower.

250grams of kalk disappear into the tank every week and there is no precipitation on pumps or heaters.

The dinos have armor plates. I wonder what those are made of. (Edit: It's cellulose C6 H10 O5).



Last edited by DNA; 11/16/2014 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 11/16/2014, 02:03 AM   #388
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I have not had the chance to read my way through this giant thread. But I'm wondering something, since a lot of people say water changes ramp up the problem. Has anyone collected data on mixes vs natural sea water? I'm wondering if some (or most) salt mixes may have an abundance of certain elements the dinos love that are mostly lower or quickly dissipate in the wild? Something you learn about plant hydroponics is that the plants will eat some elements until it kills them, and others will build up because the plants eat much less of them. So over time the situation gets worse and worse. Even changing the nutrient solution only helps you so much. In a closed system (either hydroponic or aquarium) many of the natural checks and balances are absent.


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Old 11/16/2014, 09:30 AM   #389
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Quote:
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Are there more dino-reefers out there having problems with their parameters?

My system holds 400g, but my kalk stirrer and calcium reactor designed to maintain 2400g are not keeping up.
Correcting the levels only holds for a short time and 400 is the highest calcium level I've been able to maintain recently, but it used to be lower.

250grams of kalk disappear into the tank every week and there is no precipitation on pumps or heaters.

The dinos have armor plates. I wonder what those are made of. (Edit: It's cellulose C6 H10 O5).
Yes. I dose 2 part via brs dosers and kalk through ATO and I can't get my Ca above 380 and my alk above 7.5 dkh. No precipitation on pumps/heaters here either. I just recently started the kalk, and I almost doubled the 2 part dose( 96 ml per day of each part, up from 55 ml), the only parameter that changed was my pH went up about .2.


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Old 11/16/2014, 09:34 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by codyreed29 View Post
[IMG][IMG]http://i58.*******.com/2m5biut.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]



i think this is dino in my qt tank.



I was going to give everything a freshwater bath for a few minutes and transfer all livestock to a diffrent qt tank.



Anyway to kill them completly and not have to cycle the tank again?



Or should i redoo the whole tank?

Have you tried peroxide yet? My type that I dealt with was very sensitive to this. 14 days of peroxide and gone. It has been months at this point and no relapse in my tank


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Old 11/16/2014, 12:49 PM   #391
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have have not tried anything yet just trying to get a id on it. I though this could be chryophotys becuase it has been on my corals and they arent dead all polpys corals.

They do looked ****ed off half closed half open and what not.

I am goiing to freshwater dip all my corals and move them into a diffrent tank without dinos.

Then teardown the system and soak everything in fresh water and run the system with tap water for a day or so and start over.

i aam running a protein skimmer with air pump wood stones a filter pad liverock in the bottom and some macros cheato and calepra.

Kinda a bummer i have to freshwater dip 10 12 pounds of liverock.


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Old 11/16/2014, 03:47 PM   #392
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I'm looking into possibilities that my long term toxic dino soup could have an effect on calcium levels or the test kits
I don't think the dinoflagellates will affect the calcium level or the test kits in any appreciable way. I suspect something else is happening.


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Old 11/17/2014, 03:48 AM   #393
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Hi there!

Dinos in my 700 gal system as well. I think it is ostreopsis as well, but will confirm today on the microscope.

I have lost about 25 fishes, mainly tangs and blennies who eat this stuff as it was algae, the odd that zebrasomas do not eat it at all and still alive (smart tangs...) and acanthurus triostegus keeps eating and dosesn't seem very affected (might be stronger?). Snails are dying as well (turbos fluctuosus and strombus specially as they eat night and day, tectus only active at night so still alive and kicking).


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Old 11/17/2014, 04:19 AM   #394
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I have tried many things:

- Blackout: no effect, just pauses the invasion
- Fauna Marin Algae-X. Dinos smile at it.
- Dinoxal. Dinos laugh at it.
- Amoxicilline. It seemed to work but after two days, the rascals showed up again.
- UV and ozone. Doesn`t seem to affect
- NO3. I raised nitrate from undetectable level to 30 ppm by adding KNO3. Only got brown SPSs after this.

My parameters were almost "perfect":
- Salinity 35ppm
- Temp 24ºC
- NO3 undetectable
- PO4 undetectable
- Alcalinity 7ºdkH
- Calcium 410 ppm
The system is lit by sunlight and T5s, corals thrived like crazy with awesome colors before this pest.


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Old 11/17/2014, 04:25 AM   #395
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Now I am preparing a tank to hold my corals and fish. I think I'm tearing down the whole system. My plan is as follows:

- Take all the lifestock to another tank
- Pour HCL in the system and let it run for several hours
- Empty
- Fill up with tap water and pour H2O2
- Empty
- Fill up with osmosis water and salt. Check params
- Take the corals one by one and rinse in freshwater with some H2O2 and put in the system again.
- Pray.

My main concern is the cysts, do you think this would work? How much H2O2 per gallon is needed when rinsing the corals prior to take them back to the system?


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Old 11/17/2014, 10:47 AM   #396
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Montireef, I think you may have a slim chance, but remember that dinos can hold on to fish skin, gills, corals and everything else so expect a failure and hope for the best.


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Old 11/17/2014, 11:04 AM   #397
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I just did a quick Calcium test on my skimmate and it came in at 310 ppm.
It's supposed to be much higher at around 2200. (*)

There was only a hint of pink color in the gunk, but the color change was clear.
Either the test kit does not work correctly with my skimmate or there is less calcium in there than in my tank.

(*) Skimmate test by Ron Schimek.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/


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Old 11/17/2014, 02:16 PM   #398
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Confirmed on the microscope: I have ostreopsis sp in my 700 gal system.

I am watching them die in just 10 or 15 minutes due to evaporation, it seems they do not stand it well. I haven't watched them either split or laying cysts, I wonder what are the circumstances that trigger cyst conception.


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Old 11/17/2014, 03:10 PM   #399
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I have been messing around with the microscope to find that one drop of H2O2 at 3% (10 vol) quickly kills all the ostreopsis in 50 ml.

As 1 ml equals about 43 drops, it means that I could kill all the pest with just 0,35 gal of H2O2. As H2O2 is very very unstable, I presume it won't last long in the aquarium as to hurt higher creatures such as fish or inverts.

I will go with half dose tonight when the dinos swim free in the water. Wish me luck...


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Old 11/17/2014, 03:42 PM   #400
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Well my tank didnt appear to be dinos by somes opinions for the pics i posted but after cleaning glass on front and back this is whats now mixed in wife my cheato. The problem is i never see any strands with bubble on the sand or not really on LR either. I had some long snotty strands on back glass but i removed most a week or so ago with a scraper and mag float. Doesnt appear to come back like most have had but the sump looks ugly even if i do a lights out






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