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Old 03/21/2017, 07:43 PM   #4151
jason2459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
if it's well known and studied, post the link or references. Diffusion is very slow and doesn't go very deep because the water doesn't go deep. There's no transport mechanism deeper than the surface few mms.

I make my own rocks. So, to promote diffusion through the rock and into a denitrification zone, I suggested a sponge center core within a thin rock shell... uncle objected to the fundamentals:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ight=diffusion
Is that to me? I did post my reference. A well published and peer reviewed resource and a very good read. I highly recommend it. I'm not sure you are even responding to what I stated.


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Old 03/21/2017, 08:02 PM   #4152
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I think he's referring to the post that I quoted.


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Old 03/21/2017, 08:04 PM   #4153
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Personally during my phase where I was dumping nutrients in and getting almost no algae. When I found the missing biomatter, it was in the form of 100s of grams spread between detritus in sand bed, asterina stars, micro brittle stars, and most of all - bristleworms.
Algae growth finally did take off, but it lagged the nutrient input by weeks.

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Old 03/21/2017, 08:56 PM   #4154
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I'm not sure what is meant here. It's not making any sense to me yet. I agree that diffusion won't do the job. Bulk flow will move water through the sand to some degree, but only phosphate will bind to the sand.
The point is... if people are dumping in all kinds of nutrients into a tank how do the nutrients remain low? I just feel like there is no way dinos can be using all of these extra nutrients. So where do these extra nutrients go?


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Old 03/21/2017, 09:04 PM   #4155
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The phosphate can be removed by skimming or with a binder like GFO. Live rock and sand should be able to bind phosphate for some finite period of time until the matrix is at equilibrium with the water column, although calcification might continue to incorporate some phosphate into coralline and coral skeletons. Nitrate can be removed by conversion into nitrogen gas, and skimming can remove fixed nitrogen before it becomes nitrate.


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Old 03/21/2017, 09:15 PM   #4156
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The phosphate can be removed by skimming or with a binder like GFO. Live rock and sand should be able to bind phosphate for some finite period of time until the matrix is at equilibrium with the water column, although calcification might continue to incorporate some phosphate into coralline and coral skeletons. Nitrate can be removed by conversion into nitrogen gas, and skimming can remove fixed nitrogen before it becomes nitrate.
OK. How does a skimmer remove nitrate and phosphates? It might take the food out that would eventually break down into n/p. but it would not remove them directly. So again, where do all these nutrients go when someone is not using any inorganic filtration?

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Old 03/21/2017, 09:25 PM   #4157
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I ordered the Pilson book from Amazon. I've read lots of theory, but no work with data showing how it work (or even if it works).

Randy mentions live rock and sand as denitrators - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

he references it as nitrate generation on the surface of rock and sand can help it diffuse into the rock and sand for denitrification. That goes back to my discussion of the sand bed surface as a potential battle zone for dinos vs. algae where the dinos have the advantage.

but I don't see any supporting evidence showing depth of penetration of different elements inside rocks.

Equilibrium is fine, but that's a very slow process and through a very thin shell of rock.

It wouldn't be that hard - put a rock (one where a portion has been removed to test for nutrient content) in a controlled tank with very high nitrate and phosphate and measure the rate at which those elements are removed... and then remove the rock and cross-section to measure the nutrient content at different depths...

data...

It doesn't matter for the purpose of this thread - the question here is how to promote algae uptake of nutrients before dinos take it up. Looks like flow is one key variable in addition to the replenishing the missing nutrient (phosphate or nitrate).


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Old 03/21/2017, 09:36 PM   #4158
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Awesome, glad you got it. Most excellent book I hope you'll like. I assume you got the latest 2013 revision.


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Old 03/21/2017, 09:46 PM   #4159
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just says second edition

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0132589710


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Old 03/21/2017, 09:46 PM   #4160
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OK. How does a skimmer remove nitrate and phosphates? It might take the food out that would eventually break down into n/p. but it would not remove them directly. So again, where do all these nutrients go when someone is not using any inorganic filtration?

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Considering a skimmer will remove anything that will attach to or be pushed up by a bubble this will account for DOCs before they break down and organisms that have consumed those nutrients like bacteria. I've also seen many micro fauna swept up by the foam like various pods and even worms like bristle worms as well as things like algae.

Otherwise, the nutrients will be picked up by a lot of things like binding to CaCO3 surfaces or consumed by a myriad types of life like bacteria and the diversity of surfaces coated with periphyton. Don't forget the life you can see like your corals with the dinoflagellets in them.

Then any other filtration one may have especially GAC which is shown to be much more efficient then a skimmer. Even GFO will bind more then just phosphates.


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Old 03/21/2017, 09:51 PM   #4161
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The one you linked to says 1st eddition. The second 2013 edition add more studies into the carbon cycle among other research updates.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00E6...ID=51ftxnhPr6L


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Old 03/21/2017, 09:56 PM   #4162
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I bought the softcover for $30. The pictures says second edition, but there's a little note that says that the picture is of the hardcover that's only available in hardcover for $70.

In pursuit of knowledge and avoiding the wrath of my reef-hating wife, I'll stick with the first edition as a compromise.


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Old 03/21/2017, 10:01 PM   #4163
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OK. How does a skimmer remove nitrate and phosphates?
I should have been more precise and said that the skimmer will remove organics before they can break down into nitrate and phosphate in the water column.


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Old 03/21/2017, 10:06 PM   #4164
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I bought the softcover for $30. The pictures says second edition, but there's a little note that says that the picture is of the hardcover that's only available in hardcover for $70.

In pursuit of knowledge and avoiding the wrath of my reef-hating wife, I'll stick with the first edition as a compromise.
Will still be a great read. If I had a hardcopy I would loan it out to you. I only have it in my kindle. Can I share that with another kindle user?


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Old 03/21/2017, 11:23 PM   #4165
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I get that there are things in the tank that will use N and P but it still seems like a ridiculous amout of nutrients that are not being accounted for. I'm wondering more why algae doesn't show up right away when people are trying the dirty method.

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Old 03/21/2017, 11:27 PM   #4166
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I get that there are things in the tank that will use N and P but it still seems like a ridiculous amout of nutrients that are not being accounted for. I'm wondering more why algae doesn't show up right away when people are trying the dirty method.

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Oh man, you have got to look under a microscope. It's everywhere along with every other nuisances you can think of like cyano. Periphyton is an all encompassing mix of life. Even if you never see it in full bloom, it's there.


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Old 03/21/2017, 11:35 PM   #4167
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No argument here about periphyton being there. I know it can and will suck up nutrients.

So then you think we just have to feed until the things in our tanks that suck up nutrients can't suck up any more and then green hair algae will start to apear?

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Old 03/21/2017, 11:50 PM   #4168
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No argument here about periphyton being there. I know it can and will suck up nutrients.

So then you think we just have to feed until the things in our tanks that suck up nutrients can't suck up any more and then green hair algae will start to apear?

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I don't think so. It's not about the other parts of the tank absorbing nutrients. It's the dinos being able to outcompete in a specific chemistry and regions of the tank.

Most people cannot keep algae out of their tanks. It takes an imbalance for dinos to take over. The remedy is to back up and add enough nutrients, light, and flow to get algae back in the game. It's not about saturating the tank to the point that there's something left over for the algae. If dinos are present, they will simply consume and grow faster, releasing toxins and killing everything.

Either N, or P or both are too low. Flow is too low. or the algae-friendly zones aren't getting enough light... or a combination of those.

I still think that there are some elements that are more friendly to algae.. Iron? Zinc?


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Old 03/21/2017, 11:52 PM   #4169
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No argument here about periphyton being there. I know it can and will suck up nutrients.

So then you think we just have to feed until the things in our tanks that suck up nutrients can't suck up any more and then green hair algae will start to apear?

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I don't believe in the current discussion.

I gave my input on what I do which is nothing at all above and beyond what I normally do and patience. And I don't think any one way is applicable to all types.


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Old 03/22/2017, 12:11 AM   #4170
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so if I were to do another 3 day lights out, at the end of the 3rd day, do you think I would be able to measure any phosphate or nitrate? For some unknown reason, I can never get a measurable reading of either on this tank, no matter how much I feed. I always assumed the dinos were just too efficient at uptaking them to get a reading...


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Old 03/22/2017, 12:18 AM   #4171
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dinos can survive in the dark. Many are autotrophic or heterotrophic


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Old 03/22/2017, 02:27 AM   #4172
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I am seriously shaken by all this - removing the sand was my last straw
Hey guys, It's me, DNA!

I'm the one that has had dinos for a decade and spent ridiculous amounts of time researching and implementing various methods on my own tank. I'm absolutely sure none even come close to have put the same effort into this than I have.

Here you are holding a working solution in your hands from the best source available and refuse to use it.

I swear this is my final post here until...


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Old 03/27/2017, 09:40 PM   #4173
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Wow... this thread is long. I read some of the first few pages and got some info. I also have been having a problem with what I assume are Dinos. It is like dust when I hit it with a baster. Lights off for 3 days seemed to clear it but it gradually returned despite lower light schedule. First, can someone confirm this is Dinos?



Next, I've restarted my lights out. Previously it was covering almost all my zoas and it seemed to be killing them. When I did my lights out and blasted them off with a baster, my zoas returned. So again, I'm trying to get ahead of this stuff. Where would you guys turn next? Am I reading right that it's best to get rid of the sand bed? Most of mine seem to reside on my rocks and seem to especially light the more algae ridden rock. I'd think that I need to get this rock somewhat cleaned of algae to limit the Dinos from living in it. I was going to consider restocking my CUC, but then read that Dino toxin kills snails. Not sure where to go next. Thanks for any help.


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Old 03/27/2017, 10:10 PM   #4174
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technically, the only confirmation would come under a microscope. You need to take a picture and see if they match. There are several species of dinos...

but ... that looks like dinos to me.

most telling is the complete absence of algae anywhere.


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Old 03/27/2017, 10:13 PM   #4175
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get a UV sterilizer and run low flow through it and start an ATS and feed it.. that's what I would do if I were in your shoes.

DNA will tell you to remove all your sand and start over with a bare bottom after scrubbing your rocks too (jumping ahead ).


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