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Old 04/12/2017, 11:08 AM   #4276
mandrieu
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I thought about sharing this article, courtesy of fellow reefer @badd (thanks man!) posted in a different forum, an excellent study on Ostreopsis ovata
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...one.0057291#s4


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Old 04/12/2017, 12:00 PM   #4277
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I have asked for help in a different thread to identify a "bacteria" bloom in my 5 month old tank. I was given the impression that I have to different problem locations. The first problem is red stuff - probably cyano (see first image), but I am not sure about the other back wall stuff. It is on most of my back wall, algae like consistency, with lots of bubbles and also diano like strings waving out of it. Please see the remaining images. The size is about 70 um. Is it a diano, and if yes, which one?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cyano 1200 X.jpg (41.8 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg Unknown Bacteria BACK WALL.jpg (104.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg Unknown Bacteria BACK WALL 5.jpg (77.2 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg Unknown Bacteria BACK WALL 2.jpg (26.7 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg Unknown Bacteria BACK WALL 3.jpg (32.5 KB, 43 views)
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Old 04/12/2017, 12:43 PM   #4278
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Cyano and diatoms.


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Old 04/12/2017, 06:55 PM   #4279
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I'd guess that the second picture was cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates, but I'm not good at id'ing microbes. Dinoflagellates should show a flagellum somewhere, if the focus is at the appropriate plane. I didn't see any in your images, but there's the pesky depth of field issue.


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Old 04/12/2017, 10:41 PM   #4280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I'd guess that the second picture was cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates, but I'm not good at id'ing microbes. Dinoflagellates should show a flagellum somewhere, if the focus is at the appropriate plane. I didn't see any in your images, but there's the pesky depth of field issue.
You might be onto something. I don't see a flagellum. You mentioning it also brought up another question/point. If it is dyno, should they be moving? These are static - no visible movement.


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Old 04/13/2017, 08:40 AM   #4281
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You might be onto something. I don't see a flagellum. You mentioning it also brought up another question/point. If it is dyno, should they be moving? These are static - no visible movement.
Prorocentrum is almost impossible to see flagellum.


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Old 04/13/2017, 06:54 PM   #4282
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But to be clear, it's not the result of high N, its a result of too low P.

Right?
I agree generally.
In most systems, if N is low and P is up, you might see cyano.
And if N is there and P is real low you might see dinos.



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Cyano and diatoms.
Yep. And yep.


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Old 04/13/2017, 11:52 PM   #4283
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So i wanted to check in to give an update and obtain some assistance on what to do next.

I went dirty, real dirty.

I turned off the skimmer, filled my fuge full of chaeto, fed a ton (auto feeder filled with flakes) and frozen, dosed brightwell nitrate (got it up to 20+), ultimately trying to get other algae to grow.

The good news is dinos are hardly visible now, yes I still have them, but can't really see them too much with the naked eye, they have been reduced drastically to almost non-existent.

The bad news is my rock is covered in red cotton candy algae now which is also coated with nice creamy frosting of cyano...I know, bad mixture...! I was hoping I'd get GHA instead....I should be happy about the dinos, but now I am at a point where I am not sure what to do with this massive algae outbreak with cyano mixed in.

I am annoyed that my chaeto won't grow at all for some reason...I originally hoped that if I added enough - basketball size amount, it would out compete other algae, but its not growing at all, but is alive. This has me stumped as the same light and setup has grown chaeto quite quickly in the past. I've added a few mexican turbo snails to try and clean up the cotton candy algae, but don't want to employ carbon/gfo or heavy skimming to drive nutrients down to deal with it, as it seems in the past when I drove nutrients down with GFO, a dino bloom occurred....

So for those of you that went "dirty" - what did you do once the competing algae was in full bloom and the dinos subsided? Especially if the chaeto isn't growing....? I certainly don't want to use chemi-clean for the cyano as I think that would make conditions ideal again for the dinos to take hold. I imagine I will have to live with the dinos for the rest of this tank's life, but if I can keep them not visible, I'd be happy enough.

Thx


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Old 04/14/2017, 06:51 AM   #4284
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When I did this, I had chaeto and caulerpa in the main tank. After I felt the dinos were "totally" gone, I yanked the caulerpa and gradually moved chaeto to the Fuge, or other tanks.
Odds are this isn't your issue, but invisible chemistry holds surprises... Just because you are throwing food in doesn't guarantee your parameters are what you think they are. Let's figure if there's obvious reason why your algae stopped growing.
You likely have both abundant N (nitrate dosing) and P (flake food tends to be out of balance on the P side - which is handy) but check N, P, Alk, Ca etc and post. If those all check out, then you possibly created a trace element limitation.

For cyano, if that's what it really is...Then peroxide is my go-to. cyano is affected at 1/10th the h2o2 concentration of other classes of photosynthetic stuff, so start low and adjust up until you see effect likely around 1ml/10Gal. I also target the cyano patches with the peroxide. I see no reason to play fair.


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Old 04/14/2017, 11:41 AM   #4285
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thanks - i will run my tests tonight and report back....just to clarify the chaeto didn't stop growing, it never grew in the first place since adding it and going "dirty" - on the other hand i can hardly see any rock in the display now as its covered in red cotton candy algae and cyano....i think this algae is simply outcompeting the chaeto, but I could be wrong...


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Old 04/14/2017, 11:51 AM   #4286
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Do you have herbivores that consume the tank algae? Take some pics


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Old 04/14/2017, 12:11 PM   #4287
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my lights aren't on yet, so apologize for the poor phone pics, but hopes this gives you an idea of what I am dealing with and evidence I have been running dirty......the cyano doesn't really appear until the end of my 7 hour light cycle and typically covers top of this algae or attaches to any bare spots of rock left....i have for the most part removed my substrate so nothing is on the bottom glass...






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Old 04/14/2017, 12:12 PM   #4288
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oh- and just added 4 mexican turbo snails to see if they can assist...i have a few hermits and astreas, but they haven't done much...tank is only 60 gallon cube, so have refrained from trying a foxface...


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Old 04/14/2017, 12:17 PM   #4289
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Got my UV clarifier the other day. Been running for four days now. I'm definitely noticing that dinos are coming back less and less during the day each day.

Also with the dinos lessening the few corals I do have left are slowly recovering. My frogspawn has begun expanding again. My leathers are starting to slowly come out of being dormant and I can see my various toadstools actually starting to show polyps for the first time in months.

I think I'm at the point where I may need to consider just removing my sand because I can't seem to get the last of them from there. I've noticed since running the UV my tank is incredibly clear. Never knew it could be that clear.

I tried getting some chaeto to grow to hopefully outcompete the last of the dinos but after starting with a third pound of chaeto all it did was shrink and fall apart over the course of a week. This is the second time that's happened with balls of healthy chaeto I've gotten. Not sure what to do about that. Considering maybe trying an ATS


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Old 04/14/2017, 12:53 PM   #4290
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You're still recovering.. remember that the UV can't remove the waste from the dead dinos. You'll need a skimmer or water changes to export their dead bodies.

If chaeto or green hair is falling apart, then you're not healed. Make sure the algae has enough light and that the dinos don't.


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Old 04/14/2017, 01:43 PM   #4291
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Chaeto dieing means not enough no3, po4, light, or iron. These seem good for smaller to med size fuge. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01AR...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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Old 04/14/2017, 01:48 PM   #4292
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I feed two cubes per day, definitely have measurable po4 and no3. Actually getting other green algae growing in the tank and in the refugium. At this point I'm not sure I'm going to try more chaeto because it's been a mess. Leaning towards trying an ATS, but I've wanted one of those since before this mess started.


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Old 04/14/2017, 09:36 PM   #4293
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There is only one solution to dinoflagellates:


PODS



They are the only microfauna who can eat them at our tanks and reef aquariums, if you have a fish that eats copepods and pods you will probably have dinos in the future, if you have a tank FULL of copepods, you wont have dinos, this was my experience before I added my six line, my tank was white and nice, after the six line my pod and microfauna dissapeared, and the dinos came to take my tank.


Now I know the secret.


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Old 04/14/2017, 11:28 PM   #4294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skuller View Post
There is only one solution to dinoflagellates:


PODS



They are the only microfauna who can eat them at our tanks and reef aquariums, if you have a fish that eats copepods and pods you will probably have dinos in the future, if you have a tank FULL of copepods, you wont have dinos, this was my experience before I added my six line, my tank was white and nice, after the six line my pod and microfauna dissapeared, and the dinos came to take my tank.


Now I know the secret.
I'm not disputing your experience, but that isn't the experience of other dino sufferers.


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Old 04/15/2017, 12:35 AM   #4295
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I agree that other people have had tanks with various small animals and still managed to have dinoflagellate problems. Amphipods and copepods do eat a lot of detritus, though, and might help in a fair number of tanks, without us knowing it.


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Old 04/15/2017, 06:14 AM   #4296
taricha
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Quote:
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There is only one solution to dinoflagellates:


PODS

They are the only microfauna who can eat them at our tanks and reef aquariums,
There are also ciliates that can eat dinos, and their contribution can be significant. I have pics of a half dozen different ciliates having ingested dinos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skuller View Post
if you have a tank FULL of copepods, you wont have dinos,
If you change this to say "you won't have low/non-toxic dinos" - then I agree 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skuller View Post
this was my experience before I added my six line, my tank was white and nice, after the six line my pod and microfauna dissapeared, and the dinos came to take my tank.
This is another reefer's tank with an army of amphipods.
https://youtu.be/UCoYgid9AsI
Then according to the user, they got ostreopsis and the pods died.

I almost 100% agree with you, just need caveats.
If your dinos are sand/rock dwellers of low toxicity, there is no better cure than pods and phyto (add phyto because nothing can grow on dinos alone).
If you have a large population of pods, and they are well fed, they can keep even a toxic bloom from forming.
If you don't provide food other than toxic dinos, your pods will slow down in eating them, and eventually stop, and be overrun.
If you give dinos the perfect conditions to grow, it's possible they can over-run the pods. Dinos can more than double population in a day, and pods can't.
If you have a well-established toxic dino bloom, all the pods you add will do no good - you must drastically reduce the dino numbers first.


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Old 04/15/2017, 08:55 AM   #4297
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That's not my experience at all.

I had a booming population of pods... tens of thousands before dinos and I added even more after. My tank is 380g DT and 700g system and I could not put my hand in the water without feeling them on my hands when I take my hands out.

Even my protein skimmer effluent and solid waste had pods.

I don't have mechanical filtration so their reproductive cycle is uninterrupted and I fed a lot of phyto. I tried socks for a bit and they got jammed with pods.

I even had a breeding population (several hundred) of ghost shrimp in my fuge.

I also had worms breeding in my sand bed.

Point is that I didn't lack for diversity.

I used LaCl to reduce my phosphates and dinos came as the algae died. We can argue if the loss of algae also impacted the pod population, but there are a lot of places to hide in my tank.

After the infestation, I added more biofauna... it didn't help much.

I don't argue that some pods and ciliates eat dinos. That's true. But they are neither capable of stopping the explosion caused by chemical factors (too much carbon dosing, LaCl, algaeX,...), not can they cure it after the fact.

No one ever said... I got a mandarin and that gave me dinos. Or I got too many pod eating fish and that's how I got them. This thread starts with "I wanted to get rid of my algae problem so I..."

So while the pods population may be coincidental, it isn't causal in my view.


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Old 04/15/2017, 02:53 PM   #4298
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You aren't wrong. Ostis bloom in spring in natural areas with considerable macroalgae, and I'd imagine considerable pods.
I'll point out your dinos were ostis, and mine were mostly amphidinium.
And you fed live phyto to increase pod population while running UV to hurt dinos (i didn't understand live phyto + uv at the time, now I do). I wouldn't say pods had no effect.
But, I would agree pods can't outgrow a dino bloom. Especially if their food source is contracting while nutrients are becoming dino-friendly.

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Old 04/15/2017, 03:28 PM   #4299
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Yes. Pods are always good. They're flanking the dino army while they're on the retreat but they can't win the war or even make a dent on their own.

They can't defend against dinos either. They're easily overrun.

The war needs to be multi-faceted with all allies united... but some (like microalgae and UV) are leading the offensive, while diversity and lights off slowly weaken the enemy.

I wouldn't confuse their roles.


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Last edited by karimwassef; 04/15/2017 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 04/16/2017, 09:28 AM   #4300
jjencek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjencek View Post
I have asked for help in a different thread to identify a "bacteria" bloom in my 5 month old tank. I was given the impression that I have to different problem locations. The first problem is red stuff - probably cyano (see first image), but I am not sure about the other back wall stuff. It is on most of my back wall, algae like consistency, with lots of bubbles and also diano like strings waving out of it. Please see the remaining images. The size is about 70 um. Is it a diano, and if yes, which one?
Thank you all.

To follow up based on your comments, "no movement" and "the grouping" of the unknown, I believe I got diatoms with the cyano. Of course I am glad to hear any further comments.

Now I need to plan the attack. I got them surrounded!


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