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Old 08/30/2013, 05:29 PM   #26
DNA
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Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I was wondering whether the pest, whatever it is, actually is photosynthetic.
About half of dinoflagellate species are photosynthetic and they are also mixotrophic meaning they can take advantage of environmental conditions and use a mix of different sources of energy.

Evolution has left them with skill sets that are hard to beat.


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Old 09/05/2013, 02:12 PM   #27
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Algae X

I can't edit the opening post anymore so the AlgaeX part is here instead.

I dosed 60ml to a 1400 litre system subtacting 200 lítres for 300 Kg of live rock and equipment displacement.
(60ml was dosed into estimated 1200l of water). This means I used AlgaeX as directed by the manufacturer.

My urchin lost all of it's spines, most of my sps corals are in the process of decay and some of the LPS as well.
The SPS corals that looked good before have lost their ability to shake off the dinos that now manage to get a foothold on the weakened corals.
The dinos (zooxanthally) inside the corals have left from their tips on some while others are mostly white, but not yet quite dead.

The coral death and decay can be traced to either the 3 day dark period after the first week, the hydrogen peroxid right before AlgaeX,
the change in water chemistry due to carbon, GFO and bio pellets to be discontiued, the AlgaeX chemical itself or a combination of the above.
The toxic soup is also very likely to become more toxic without any of these filters.

Right before using AlgaeX I popped most of the the Valonia bubbles I have, thinking the Hydrogen Peroxide and the Algae X would have an easy time hitting it hard.
Not a single bubble has perished, they all look healthy and loads of tiny virgin ones are growing where the bigger ones were burst. Large or small, not a single bubble has perished.

The dinoflagellates this chemical was supposed to take care of are doing just as good as before and there is no change for the better in appearance, growth rate, amount of debris or skimming quantity.
The fact AlgaeX has failed miserably to either push back the dinos or Valonia and to leave any visible difference. Because of this I have serious doubts of this product.
If it was not for the urchin to lose it's spines I'd think I have been dosing a placebo or snake oil.
It could be that the other helping steps reefers are asked to do are really providing the results we read about in the forums.

Conclusion.
AlgaeX is was completely useless for the dinoflagellates I have.
It was also useless for bubble algae.
The corals in the tank look much worse now than before the treatment.

This was the last realistic hope for a cure, I had, for my tank.



Last edited by bertoni; 09/06/2013 at 11:16 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09/05/2013, 10:28 PM   #28
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Well, I'm sorry to hear that the treatment didn't work. Some dinoflagellates seem to be very resilient.

I can fix the spelling in the thread, if you'd like.


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Old 09/05/2013, 10:32 PM   #29
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Dang DNA sorry man that stinks. If it was my tank, big water change stat.


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Old 09/06/2013, 01:29 AM   #30
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I can fix the spelling in the thread, if you'd like.
Yes please, there is no harm in improvements.
This was written for fellow reefers to see what they are dealing with.

Now I'll take a while to think what comes next.
The excessive maintenance it takes to keep a dino tank on the right side of the line is not what I have in mind for the future.
I'd estimate it needs 5-10 times the work of a healthy tank.


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Old 09/14/2013, 04:47 AM   #31
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Last weekend I really dived into the dinoflagellate identification I had planned. Earlier I had contacted 5 dino experts asking for help, but none of them even bothered to reply.
This left me with the difficult task of doing my best and after two days of comparing videos, images and reading through descriptions of various dino species I concluded I've got Ostreopsis.
O. heptagona fitted the videos and images perfectly and the discription the best, but O. Ovata came in close second.

This excellent source by Dr. Maria A. Faust was the most valuable information along with various articles, videos and images on the web.
http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflag/

- - -

I also researched the health issues on humans associated with these toxins.
They are real and I strongly advise in reading up before anything else.

In the case of Ostreopsis there is bound to be palytoxin in the water column.


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Old 09/14/2013, 07:59 AM   #32
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I too, am battling Dino's. I am 6 weeks, into the battle and it looks to be getting better.

I have stopped doing water changes, on my 75g. I have added a GFO reactor and Carbon, in a media sock. I did the 3 days of lights out (which actually ended 2 days ago) so, I am now doing 3 hrs of light per day. Starting with my Actinics and Blue Plus bank.

I have been keeping an eye on my Birdsnest. This is where I see them start to form first. They then string from tip to tip and I'm in there, siphoning out what I can.

I have also cut back on feeding. Once a day, with either pellets or algae sheets.

I have been through everything with this reef: Cyano, diatoms and the like. I will say that, this is almost heartbreaking. I'm hoping that it has been beat!

Has anyone tried using Chemiclean to battle this?


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Old 09/14/2013, 08:18 AM   #33
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I've had sucess with the species that infested in my friends display tank at his reef shop. We raised the pH with kalk to 8.4 and sucked them out with a turkey baster every other day for about 10 days. It took about 15 minutes of work each time. They dept cming back but in less volume. After about 5 times they dtopped coming back.

I don't get them in my tanks, thank goodness. I keep pH in the 8.15 to 8.35 range ,fwiw.
A year or so ago, a new coral presented some on it's base . They disappeared in a few days without infesting the tank.

Whether or not elevated pH will work on a specific species or any at all is still questionable but worth considering along with manual removal,imo.

This article provides information that may be helpful in your casel:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Old 09/14/2013, 03:35 PM   #34
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I'm skeptical about Chemi-Clean helping with dinoflagellates, but if you get desperate, it might be worth a shot. I'd siphon out as much of the dinoflagellate mass as possible just before dosing, to reduce the amount of toxins and decay byproducts release. Also, having plenty of water on hand for changes and fresh carbon might be useful, too.


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Old 09/15/2013, 12:59 AM   #35
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I had a severe dinoflagellate bloom a few years back. I lost almost every coral, some I'd kept for over a decade at the time. Water changes seemed to fuel new growth, 3-5 day blackouts had little effect. Removal via siphon provided temporary relief. Eventually I siphoned out all my sand along with the dinos and didn't bother to replace it. The bloom ended shortly thereafter. I can't attribute cause only correlation.

Prior to the bloom I'd not done a water change in years. I dosed nothing but Kalkwasser and coral growth was glorious. I have no idea what brought on the plague, there were no new animals nor did I change maintenance, salt or anything else.


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Old 09/15/2013, 03:21 AM   #36
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I did a single density test on my water column and counted 30 in 0,2 ml.
There are around 570 000 cells / gallon in my tank. (150 000 / liter)

228 million cells are free swimming in my 400g system. (1500 liter)

I would estimate those are less than 1% of the total number of the dinoflaggellate individuals.
That leads to a minimum of 22 800 000 000 dinos living in my tank.

23 billion dinos. That's way more dinos in my tank than all the people in the world.


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Old 09/27/2013, 12:08 PM   #37
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I'm pulling the plug.

Oh what a joy starting all over.


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Old 09/27/2013, 12:14 PM   #38
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why do that before we exhaust all options that still preserve the biofilter


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Old 09/27/2013, 12:25 PM   #39
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the reason I hate to see a tank teardown is because they can come in again, hitchhiking into the brand new tank. we have specific dino cures in the peroxide thread, with pics, it should not be discounted especially when a start over is looming. Thats a tempting option I know, but Id sure take on the challenge if you wanted one last chance before a start over, what would you have to lose>? the way I would battle them in your tank is not like what has been posted here. 1 mil to 10 gallons is not the method I would use at all. with a full tank shot per today I can tell you if your corals can tolerate up to 4 mls per 10 gallons, like other tanks in our thread. the 1:10 is a baseline dosing that 95% of animals can tolerate, you simple need more, and, applied in a different way.


Yep, after rereading the thread, its premature takedown. All options have not been tried. its harmless at this point to let me get a hold of it with our most dedicated techniques, I still only rate the cure potential at 50% chance but thats a better chance including $$ vs a startover. a true startover is not reusing things from the old tank that dont go through total sterilization, I really hate to consider that on a running tank when obvious options are left on the table. lemme do some cpr on yer tank man

your biofilter is astoundingly tolerant of this type of work, the thread shows. we have so much more room to press than what has been tried. there are specific, multiple cures of dinos buried there even though the chances aren't much better than 50% when trying the best way we know to use peroxide. I love these challenges which is why Im pressing to avoid a startover until its truly the only option. Being tired of jacking with things is understandable if thats the reason why you are skipping the last option.



Last edited by brandon429; 09/27/2013 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 09/29/2013, 08:30 AM   #40
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Brandon, I appreciate your feedback, but after not having any positive results from a week of using H2O2 I don't think dosing 4 times as much is going to do much good.
I would be willing to do some test tube experiments though if you could be more specific on how it should be used.

There is no way my Ostreopsis dinos can be exterminated with a spot spraying method since they cover most surfaces and are literally in every drop of water.
The same spot would be repopulated with dinos within minutes or as soon as the effect dissipates.
It would have to be a global cure that affects all of the dinos at the same time.

If I got to kill 99.9% of the dinos they would for sure be in full numbers again within a week.


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Old 09/29/2013, 10:46 AM   #41
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Hi Dna, i have to say this is an extremely scary thread, however i do have a few questions

1-what are the odds of getting dino? is it common?
2- does it have to be introduced to your tank or can it be created in your tank? (if i set an aggressive qt routine for everything will i be able to avoid such a disaster? in other words qt-dip in fw then qt in a different tank following more fw dips?

i am about to setup my 265g (first sw tank) and reading this thread just scares the crap out of me! i cant even imagine the amount of time, money, death and torture to your current fish and corals it takes to get rid of this

could you post a few pics? /timeline /history of your tank

or just the last one, i want to see the dino in your tank


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Old 09/29/2013, 11:17 AM   #42
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My dinoflagellates outbreak began immediately after I killed off all of my Cyanobacteria by doing a 3 day dark period. Tank was COVERED in cyano before...after lights out it was sparkly clean. I loved it. Then 2-3 days later the brown bubbly snot showed up. Nothing else changed. Just killed one pest and freed up nutrients for another pest to consume


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Old 09/29/2013, 12:11 PM   #43
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Hi Dna, i have to say this is an extremely scary thread, however i do have a few questions

1-what are the odds of getting dino? is it common?
2- does it have to be introduced to your tank or can it be created in your tank? (if i set an aggressive qt routine for everything will i be able to avoid such a disaster? in other words qt-dip in fw then qt in a different tank following more fw dips?

i am about to setup my 265g (first sw tank) and reading this thread just scares the crap out of me! i cant even imagine the amount of time, money, death and torture to your current fish and corals it takes to get rid of this

could you post a few pics? /timeline /history of your tank

or just the last one, i want to see the dino in your tank


There are about 2000 different kinds of dinos and virtually all tanks have them.
It's just the beneficial types like zooxanthellae in corals. They are also very important part of the natural food chain.

Then there are the toxic species that are causing reef-keepers problems as well as mass killing fish and invertebrates in the ocean when they bloom.
The encysted forms of some dinoflagellates may remain viable for a century lying dormant in sediment until the environment is suitable for them.

I don't know the odds but I'd guess less than 1% of reefers get them as a plague, but it seems to be on the rise or they are getting more often identified.
I have it from Potsy here on Reef Central they they die almost instantly in freshwater or rapid drop in salinity and I surely hope it works that way for me.

Some of the pictures I've taken my cause quite a stir and I'm not posting them, but imagine your fish having this organism sitting on their fins, gills and vents.
Shrimps may have hundreds hanging on a single tentacle at any given time since the dinos have a unique way to attach instantly to almost anything.
All of my fish and shrimp are still alive though and to a normal reefer everything seems to be alright.

Most of us run carbon none stop and I think that is very important for your own health if you have some of the toxic ones in your tank.
I don't know of anyone that has died, but a lot have gotten respiratory problems and red eyes just by staying briefly near a shoreline where there is a dino bloom.
After identifying the ones I have and knowing it's palytoxin they produce I was swift to decide to pull the plug.
Palytoxin is one of the most toxic natural poison known and the amount that takes to kill a man, if it enters the bloodstream, can hardly be seen by the naked eye.

It does indeed sound scary, but I recommend not to be to paranoid and just enjoy your reefkeeping.
Most of us will never get them in big numbers or even notice them and carbon will take care of the toxins.

I do think it's important to be informed if you get them so you can act accordingly.
That is the purpose of this thread.

---

I found an image suitable for the public.
It's a tiny Neon Goby and you can see a few individual dinos on top of it's head against the background.




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Old 09/29/2013, 12:26 PM   #44
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My dinoflagellates outbreak began immediately after I killed off all of my Cyanobacteria by doing a 3 day dark period. Tank was COVERED in cyano before...after lights out it was sparkly clean. I loved it. Then 2-3 days later the brown bubbly snot showed up. Nothing else changed. Just killed one pest and freed up nutrients for another pest to consume
I think it's possible that it's Cyano that is sitting on top of the dinos on the sand bed.
This is where the first sign of dinos is that reefers notice.

I thought I had diatoms shortly after I restarted the tank almost two years ago, but after months the brown patches on the sand persisted and they have never left.

A good way to find out if you have dinos is to turn off all pumps and blast all the rocks with a single powerhead and wait for 5 five minutes.
If it's like fine dust coming off the rocks and they form strings in the water column when free swimming it's a good indicator of dinos.


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Old 09/29/2013, 12:36 PM   #45
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I think that fish picture is just astounding, who thinks of a fishes slime coat as a vector of pestilence we usually only consider the substrata. Truly amazing picture ill be linking back to this one some day.


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Old 09/29/2013, 12:56 PM   #46
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I have dinos in my tank especially on artificial live rock but they haven't hurt any of the corals as of yet.
Absolutely unsightly.
My weapon of choice? Powerhead blowing on rocks and a toothbrush.


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Old 09/30/2013, 09:48 AM   #47
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Someone here mentioned fresh water will "instantly kill" Dino's... Is this a fact? Or jus an opinion... Is there any info out there to back this claim?

I really need some thoughts on this...


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Old 09/30/2013, 10:00 AM   #48
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I don't know what kind I had but they started killing my corals and anemones. This worked for me in a 40g DT (55g system):
-Raised the pH with Kalk
-Black out for five days, I completely covered the tank with a metallic curtain (the ones that are like color in one side and metallic in the other). I added an air pump in the sump knowing the curtain would limit the gas exchange. Went back slowly, a week of just 2 t5 for 5hrs, then 6 T5s 5hrs.
-GFO, I used a cup of GFO with a little higher flow than usual and changed it every other day for a week and weekly for about 8 weeks.
- Wet Skimming.
- Absolutely zero water changes during the battle (about 8 weeks)

I think the key was being very aggressive with each approach, I'm not sure how aggressive you have been. Like the blackouts, not just the lights off but cover the tank and don't let any light in the display or sump and I did five days. The GFO daily or every other day changing large amounts and increasing the flow in the reactor a bit, not too much or you will pulverize it.



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Old 09/30/2013, 07:13 PM   #49
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Someone here mentioned fresh water will "instantly kill" Dino's... Is this a fact? Or jus an opinion... Is there any info out there to back this claim?

I really need some thoughts on this...
Anyone have any thoughts? Maybe I should assume that statement was bogus?


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Old 09/30/2013, 09:33 PM   #50
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Well, microbes often die when subjected to a rapid change in SG, so it's possible that dinoflagellates will. I haven't tried it myself, and different species of dinoflagellates might respond differently.


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