Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 05/20/2015, 02:44 PM   #1101
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,511
Montireef and DNA have completed the 200 part survey.
It includes most of the mesureable and observable parts of reefkeeping.

I have to say I found the comparison to be very interesting and to be a huge step forward.
Our tanks had surprisingly little in common and the big picture here shows that Ostreopsis dinos don't care about a lot of things.

We have listed over 50 different things that don't matter much for dinos and dozens of new ones.
We have also listed a handful that do help and we have discussed most of them here in this thread.

I'm off the case for the summer so that's it for now.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/20/2015, 02:45 PM   #1102
EvMiBo
VictoriaConcordiaCrescit
 
EvMiBo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Posts: 2,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA View Post
At the moment abundant and healthy plankton gets my vote.
For what? Eliminating dinos or keeping them away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA View Post
Montireef and DNA have completed the 200 part survey.
It includes most of the mesureable and observable parts of reefkeeping.

I have to say I found the comparison to be very interesting and to be a huge step forward.
Our tanks had surprisingly little in common and the big picture here shows that Ostreopsis dinos don't care about a lot of things.

We have listed over 50 different things that don't matter much for dinos and dozens of new ones.
We have also listed a handful that do help and we have discussed most of them here in this thread.

I'm off the case for the summer so that's it for now.
Are you planning on releasing the data??


__________________
Evan | DSA 135g Peninsula
EvMiBo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/21/2015, 01:27 AM   #1103
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Yes on the algae treatment. The reef I am keeping now went for a year anf a half with only two very minor cases of cyano. All indicators tell me that all algae were wiped out by the algae treatment. I carefully tested for ammonia during the transition and found none. This tells me that the bio filter was intact. The nitrate climbed from a constant 0ppm to 20ppm with no sign that it was slowimg. Water changes cleaning the sand and sump treating with extra bags of purigen and fresh phosguard started to turn the tank around. What made the most impact has been dosing with vodka. The dinos are well suppressed compared to a week ago however, after seeing the speed at which they conquer territory I am not ready to declare success yet. I bought an extra filter sock so I can rotate them out every teo days and my new UV bulb for my Coralife UV unit will be here Friday. I will run the UV nites only when the dinos are in the water column. Thats my input so far.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/21/2015, 01:29 PM   #1104
bheron
Registered Member
 
bheron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Valley Forge, PA
Posts: 2,671
A coupe weeks ago I found this thread. I tried ID with a kids microscope and it didnt work. Hopeless I simply followed what seems to be one of the general tips here used nutrients to battle my dinos. I did:

1) siphoned off as much as I could into a filter sock
2) stopped water changes
3) turned off skimmer

Its been a couple of weeks. Almost immediately I noticed the dinos stopped getting worse. And now they're almost completely gone. Just some brown spots in some places but no "snot" or "bubbles".

My tank is fairly new and in a gradual startup stage. A little while back I had no dines but encountered an outbreak of green/blue algae all over my sandbed. so I thought, huh, I guess I need to cut down on nutrients and started an aggressive program of water changes. This is when my Dinos outbreak started.


__________________
Bryan

Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005
bheron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/21/2015, 05:08 PM   #1105
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
It was proven a long time ago that dinos flouish in an excess of nutrients. Long Island sound has been plagued by red tide (dinos) whixh kill fish and inverts on a scale hard gor most people to visualize. Anyway the culprits have long been known to be nitrate based fertilizers and phosphate based detergents washing from farms and towns into the local watershed and ultimately into the sound. By the way back inthe sixties laws were passed barring phosphate detergents. In less than a year fishing and the shellfish industry were astounded by the recovery of the system. Unfortunatly the big money soap suds producets got the rulings repealed. Look up the state of Long Island fisheries if you need convincing. Any ecosystem is kept in balance by the amount of available food. The only reason dinos would subside is if they ate themselves into starvation. It is a hard way to gp bouncing back and forth between cyano/dino outbreaks trying to cure the problem with a dirty fish tank treatment. It just invites more problems down the line.
n


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/2015, 09:20 AM   #1106
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikefromaz View Post
It was proven a long time ago that dinos flouish in an excess of nutrients. Long Island sound has been plagued by red tide (dinos) whixh kill fish and inverts on a scale hard gor most people to visualize. Anyway the culprits have long been known to be nitrate based fertilizers and phosphate based detergents washing from farms and towns into the local watershed and ultimately into the sound. By the way back inthe sixties laws were passed barring phosphate detergents. In less than a year fishing and the shellfish industry were astounded by the recovery of the system. Unfortunatly the big money soap suds producets got the rulings repealed. Look up the state of Long Island fisheries if you need convincing. Any ecosystem is kept in balance by the amount of available food. The only reason dinos would subside is if they ate themselves into starvation. It is a hard way to gp bouncing back and forth between cyano/dino outbreaks trying to cure the problem with a dirty fish tank treatment. It just invites more problems down the line.
n
I've been battling Ostreopsis Ovata for a year now and the only thing that has really worked is letting the water dirty up a bit, to the point where I have to clean the micro algae on the glass daily.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/2015, 11:52 AM   #1107
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,528
There are many species of dinoflagellates, and I would hesitate to make any assumptions about how all the species react to different environments. High-nutrient waters definitely can encourage the blooms of some species, but that doesn't mean that all dinoflagellates require an environment like that. From what I can tell from reading threads here, tanks respond very differently to methods for dinoflagellate removal. Part of the issue could be different species, and other factors might be specific to the tank in question.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/2015, 01:29 PM   #1108
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Very true

Jonathan...I agree completely with your observations. I fully expect more of the same. Good days and not so good. The truth is I have done most if not all of the standard push back stuff. I have two packages of eurythromycin for a couple of years now hoping never to need them. The ol' nuclear option huh?


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/2015, 01:34 PM   #1109
EvMiBo
VictoriaConcordiaCrescit
 
EvMiBo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Posts: 2,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
There are many species of dinoflagellates, and I would hesitate to make any assumptions about how all the species react to different environments. High-nutrient waters definitely can encourage the blooms of some species, but that doesn't mean that all dinoflagellates require an environment like that. From what I can tell from reading threads here, tanks respond very differently to methods for dinoflagellate removal. Part of the issue could be different species, and other factors might be specific to the tank in question.
Agreed. The species in the North East is Alexandrium fundyense. It seems like what we deal with in aquariums is of the genus Ostreopsis. For the most part it seems like making the water "dirtier" helps to keep Ostreopsis at bay. I've been doing that (no water changes, no carbon, the gfo, etc.) then nuking with FM Ultra Algae X. 7th dose tonight, dinos about 90% gone, corals fine, fish fine. Algae growth on glass has come to a hault. Fingers crossed...


__________________
Evan | DSA 135g Peninsula
EvMiBo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/2015, 02:23 PM   #1110
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvMiBo View Post
Agreed. The species in the North East is Alexandrium fundyense. It seems like what we deal with in aquariums is of the genus Ostreopsis. For the most part it seems like making the water "dirtier" helps to keep Ostreopsis at bay. I've been doing that (no water changes, no carbon, the gfo, etc.) then nuking with FM Ultra Algae X. 7th dose tonight, dinos about 90% gone, corals fine, fish fine. Algae growth on glass has come to a hault. Fingers crossed...
Careful with the FM Ultra Algae X, my dinos appeared after using that to try to get rid of bubble algae, and the bubble algae came back to.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/2015, 05:41 PM   #1111
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Cal_stir. I had the same experience using API Marine Akgaefix. I dosed that stuff for not quite two weeks. I was happy and amazed to see how it cleared the hair algae etc. I had bare live rock again! A day or two more and the dinos hit hard. My best guess is the Algaefix took out macro and micro algae, the net effect being no competition for nitrates and phosphates. My first clue of trouble was my nitrates. For a year and a half my nitrates never read higher than 5ppm. I checked the day the dinos hit and the reading was 20ppm and climbing. An additional check showed zero ammonia which told me the conversion process is ok. Your experience is the third one I heard in the past week.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/2015, 09:20 PM   #1112
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
I find it very interesting that we seem to have two opposite treatment strategies. One involves a considerably dirty tank approach followed up by an algae killer and one approach started with algae killer hoping nutrient reduction and all the regular chemicals and UV treatment will work. I will try any approach if it works. I guess I must be lucky to have reefed for twelve years before catching dinos. The bottom line is I am no dino expert. That being said I will continue to report whatever progress does or doesnt happen in my tank and keep an open mind to other strategies.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 08:38 AM   #1113
mathman7728
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 221
lighting in sump, no lighting in DT

do you turn off the sump light when you are not running lights in the DT?

i removed the dinos in the sand as much as possible and then went lights out for 3 days. i added cleto and other red algae in the sump with a small light in hopes that the cleto would take out any excess nutrients that may have been feeding the dino. but then i wondered if keeping the lights on in the sump would allow the dinos to survive in the sump and just return to the DT when i turned the lights back on…..


mathman7728 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 02:23 PM   #1114
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,528
I agree that keeping the lights on in the sump will defeat a lot of the purpose of doing a lights-out treatment. You might want to try it again.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 02:42 PM   #1115
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,585
You know... That might be the key!

Ok. Just stay with me till the end.

We're trying to remove a disease organism from the body (the reef), right? Most separation mechanisms depend on changing states to remove the offensive material from healthy tissue.

So, if you want to remove iron from dirt, you use a magnet over a conveyor belt.
If you want to remove fats from water, you cool it and skim the surface.

The idea is that, if the material to be removed has a preferential attraction, that can be used against it. That preference can isolate it from the rest of the system.

So how about we use light as a localization binding agent?

We turn all lights off for 24hrs, including the sump. Then we run an outside loop to a holding tank... Maybe a 5 gal bucket? ... That is very brightly lit. The bucket has lots of large opening mesh media (like netting or open weave cloth).

With a slow enough flow, the protozoa should choose to settle to feed off the light. Run this for 24hrs, then throw away the cloth or mesh...

Just thinking in a different box, and this is just crude concept for now, but maybe this allows for a low risk removal method.

Kind of like a hyper fast turf scrubber for dinos...


karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 02:44 PM   #1116
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,585
I'd run the return through a uv sterilizer and then straight into the skimmer intake for safe measure... LOL!


karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 02:49 PM   #1117
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,585
Instead of a 5 gal bucket, maybe a shallow tray to give the slowest flow and maximum light exposure? It would need to be covered up completely to avoid any light getting to the tank or sump.


karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 02:50 PM   #1118
msderganc
Registered Member
 
msderganc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
You know... That might be the key!

Ok. Just stay with me till the end.

We're trying to remove a disease organism from the body (the reef), right? Most separation mechanisms depend on changing states to remove the offensive material from healthy tissue.

So, if you want to remove iron from dirt, you use a magnet over a conveyor belt.
If you want to remove fats from water, you cool it and skim the surface.

The idea is that, if the material to be removed has a preferential attraction, that can be used against it. That preference can isolate it from the rest of the system.

So how about we use light as a localization binding agent?

We turn all lights off for 24hrs, including the sump. Then we run an outside loop to a holding tank... Maybe a 5 gal bucket? ... That is very brightly lit. The bucket has lots of large opening mesh media (like netting or open weave cloth).

With a slow enough flow, the protozoa should choose to settle to feed off the light. Run this for 24hrs, then throw away the cloth or mesh...

Just thinking in a different box, and this is just crude concept for now, but maybe this allows for a low risk removal method.

Kind of like a hyper fast turf scrubber for dinos...
Very interesting idea. It may work for cyano as well...


__________________
- Matt

Current Tank Info: 75g SPS ReefSavvy in the Works (prior: 260g SPS heavy system, 70g prop system, 29g Biocube)
msderganc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 03:00 PM   #1119
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,585
Well, turf scrubbers have existed for a long time. I'm adapting it to dinos with a lights out mode to drive them out.

A traditional turf scrubber uses algae to bind excess nutrients that can be exported when you scrape the algae off. The point there is to grow the algae - on purpose. The water runs FAST and for a long time (weeks).

This modification doesn't want to cultivate dinos! Just to bind them to a mesh matrix for direct export. The water runs slow and export is very frequent - every 6 hours?


karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 03:34 PM   #1120
Randyp79
Registered Member
 
Randyp79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Owensboro, KY
Posts: 134
Pants,

Can you i.d. the type of dino in this video? Sorry for the poor quality, it was the best I could get with my cell phone and my classroom microscope. I have the typical brown snot with O2 bubbles. Not sure if you can see it in the video but the dinos seem to spin as they swim.


Randyp79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 03:37 PM   #1121
DDon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Brentwood,CA
Posts: 768
Seeking some advice in my battle with/recovery from dinos.

Tank is a 240g mixed reef (SPS dominant) and have been battling dinos since January. I had been fighting cyano for some time then noticed quite a few across with STN from base and from tips at which time a began to suspect dinos. At this point I started using peroxide ramping up to 1ml/gal to battle the suspected dinos and this seems to be when they really became apparent. Did a 3 days lights out but not a complete blackout with heavy siphoning and blowing of rocks while continuing peroxide. This seemed to knock them back quite a bit and stated seeing good growth on corals again but slowly dinos started showing in greater numbers again. Tried another 3 day lights out with even greater physical removal and no water changes. Also, continued peroxide dosing but at 1ml/gal twice a day. Again this knocked them back and what I saw remaining I was doing spot treatments with peroxide. Also stopped adding vinegar to my kalk as I was afraid this might be fueling dinos.
At this point I went on a 10 day trip overseas and left the tank in the care of my oldest daughter. She knows the basics maintenance but nothing more. While on my trip I got some reports from my son (who just loves to give me bad news) that some of my corals were dying. When I returned home it was soo much worse than I could have imagined. Tank was loaded with dinos and the coral losses were pretty severe with the majority of SPS (including across, montis, stylos, birds nests etc.) impacted. Not all were dead but most were damaged. LPS were also impacted with loss of a chalice and mac o'lantern lepto looking very rough.
I have to say at this point I was so discouraged I considered tearing the tank down and starting over or just taking a sledgehammer to the tank and be done with it.

Anyways, at this point I decided to do 5 day blackout, so turned off lights and covered tank in black plastic. Started with peroxide treatment again at a dose of about 1.5ml/gal twice a day, thorough cleaning of the system to remove as many dinos as possible and including a full cleaning of the sump. Also did 3 40 gal water changes in a week and fresh carbon (twice) and fresh GFO.
Today is the first day that lights are back on. Just running an actinic and blue bulb (T5) and my kessils on at 15% intensity and color at 10% for 5 hours.
Tank looks great right now, well not seeing any dinos at least. Still pulling dead corals out and will need to do some pretty hard trimming on others to see if they might survive.
Going forward I am not sure what to do. Is the lighting intensity and duration I started at fine or would you start slower and for how long? Also seeing so much mixed info on low nutrients or slightly higher? Continue with regular water changes or stop again since lights are back on? Start vinegar dosing in my kalk again or not?
Before all this started tank looked the best it ever did. I was running GFO changed monthly and was dosing vinegar with my kalk. 15% water changes were performed weekly.
Any advice for moving forward would be greatly appreciated. Oh and before you ask, I never did identify what type of dinos I was dealing with.
Thanks

Edit: I knew I forgot something. I was also adding additional kalk, in a slurry, to try to raise pH during the first 3 day lights out period and during the 5 day blackout, though to a lesser extent the second time due to equipment and livestock issues that were experienced the first time.



Last edited by DDon; 05/25/2015 at 03:48 PM. Reason: Add Additional Information
DDon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 04:39 PM   #1122
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,585
Sounds like your tank was very algae free and low in nutrients.

IMHO, I think there is a risk with carbon dosing of reducing nitrates so low that algae struggle and dinos can thrive with minimal phosphate and nearly no nitrates.

If you're looking healthy, then the dinos are just waiting for you to set up that perfect condition again. I would keep phosphates low, but don't shred down to zero nitrates again. Give a little algae room to hold on and defend against dinos. I don't think you need to stop carbon dosing, just keep it in balance to your feeding level.

That's my advice, anyway. I used the clean method with heavy UV and skimming and killed off my dinos that way. I've kept it up with no downside to date.


karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 08:42 PM   #1123
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
I'm slowly bringing my tank back from a state of dirty, basically maintaining the big 3 and let the po4 and no3 to rise to .08 and 5 ppm respectively(both were 0) , I also removed most of my sand bed. I stopped UV, carbon and skimming for about 3 weeks and did small water changes. I've resumed carbon and skimming.
I now get a green film on the glass daily where before dinos it was a week, no more brown film on the glass, I use 10uM filter socks on my drains which I change every 2 days. Looking at the tank I can't tell I have dinos but under the microscope I still see a few in my skimmate and socks but they seem deformed and are weak swimmers, I've started culturing phyto to rebuild the micro fauna and critters that were destroyed by FM algaeX (trying to get rid of bubble algae) which I believe are what keep the dinos in check. Hopefully this is the nail in the dino coffin.
Ostreopsis Ovata.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 08:55 PM   #1124
DDon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Brentwood,CA
Posts: 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Sounds like your tank was very algae free and low in nutrients.

IMHO, I think there is a risk with carbon dosing of reducing nitrates so low that algae struggle and dinos can thrive with minimal phosphate and nearly no nitrates.

If you're looking healthy, then the dinos are just waiting for you to set up that perfect condition again. I would keep phosphates low, but don't shred down to zero nitrates again. Give a little algae room to hold on and defend against dinos. I don't think you need to stop carbon dosing, just keep it in balance to your feeding level.

That's my advice, anyway. I used the clean method with heavy UV and skimming and killed off my dinos that way. I've kept it up with no downside to date.
Thanks for your input.
I never carbon dosed to reduce nitrate, only added to kalk to increase strength of kalk solution, though I do understand I was carbon dosing doing that. I have always run with very low nitrates in the tank, have never been able to get a reading (3 different test kits). Have been able to maintain phosphates at a relatively low level. My tank has always been algae free with the exception of cyano, a green algae similar looking to cyano that I was ale to blow off with turkey baster and some bubble alage. I did buy some sodium nitrate to try to increase my nitrates to a measurable level during my battle with dinos but abandoned that for now. May consider doing in the future if I go back with vinegar in my kalk.


DDon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/25/2015, 10:14 PM   #1125
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,585
Adding vinegar to Kalk is carbon dosing- you may have been overdriving your nitrate reduction into the dino zone without realizing it.

I wouldn't intentionally add nitrates. I'd just feed... Shame to deprive the food chain and just jump to an additive imo.


karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:08 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014