Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 05/26/2015, 12:17 AM   #1126
DDon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Brentwood,CA
Posts: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Adding vinegar to Kalk is carbon dosing- you may have been overdriving your nitrate reduction into the dino zone without realizing it.

I wouldn't intentionally add nitrates. I'd just feed... Shame to deprive the food chain and just jump to an additive imo.
Thanks. Yep I realized I was carbon dosing doing what I was doing just wasn't for that intention.
I feed fairly heavy and that is my preference as well.

I do appreciate all your feedback, thanks for responding.


DDon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 12:30 AM   #1127
DDon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Brentwood,CA
Posts: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_stir View Post
I'm slowly bringing my tank back from a state of dirty, basically maintaining the big 3 and let the po4 and no3 to rise to .08 and 5 ppm respectively(both were 0) , I also removed most of my sand bed. I stopped UV, carbon and skimming for about 3 weeks and did small water changes. I've resumed carbon and skimming.
I now get a green film on the glass daily where before dinos it was a week, no more brown film on the glass, I use 10uM filter socks on my drains which I change every 2 days. Looking at the tank I can't tell I have dinos but under the microscope I still see a few in my skimmate and socks but they seem deformed and are weak swimmers, I've started culturing phyto to rebuild the micro fauna and critters that were destroyed by FM algaeX (trying to get rid of bubble algae) which I believe are what keep the dinos in check. Hopefully this is the nail in the dino coffin.
Ostreopsis Ovata.
Do you feel running the tank "dirty" was the key to you getting rid of dinos (or at least getting them under control)? Have you seen any change for the worse or better since you restarted your skimmer? If I remember correctly you also used kordon ich attach but don't remember what the result was for you.


DDon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 07:07 AM   #1128
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Short and to the point. My tank was healthy and happy with a cosmetic problem (hair algae). The use of my choice of a marine algae killer made my tank "pretty" again. The problem is it also kicked my ecosystem back about three billion years to the point where dinos and cyano were likely the dominant life forms on earth. My dinos are mostly suppressed at the moment. Super nitrate/phosphate dcrubbers, vodka dosing, UV, yada, yada..... Despite the tank being on its way to "pretty" again I have no doubt it is otherwise a dinoflagellate dominated eco desert. Soooo...that being said I intend to visit my LFS and pick up a healthy dose of their live phyto/ rotifer/ pod offering and at least give the dinos some competition as they had before screwing things up.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 07:32 AM   #1129
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Marine algse killer? Drae ypur own conclusion. I havr.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 09:39 AM   #1130
DDon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Brentwood,CA
Posts: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikefromaz View Post
Short and to the point. My tank was healthy and happy with a cosmetic problem (hair algae). The use of my choice of a marine algae killer made my tank "pretty" again. The problem is it also kicked my ecosystem back about three billion years to the point where dinos and cyano were likely the dominant life forms on earth. My dinos are mostly suppressed at the moment. Super nitrate/phosphate dcrubbers, vodka dosing, UV, yada, yada..... Despite the tank being on its way to "pretty" again I have no doubt it is otherwise a dinoflagellate dominated eco desert. Soooo...that being said I intend to visit my LFS and pick up a healthy dose of their live phyto/ rotifer/ pod offering and at least give the dinos some competition as they had before screwing things up.
Makes alot of sense. Don't know how many posts I have read, or been guilty of myself, that having a problem with "x" so I add "y" and now dinos or some other undesireable has taken over. In my case cyano was the problem with suspected dinos lurking so started peroxide dosing, then bam, dinos in full bloom. I'm sure the peroxide was not too friendly to the microfauna.

This is the first tank I have experienced dinos in and also first that cyano was a major pain. But this is also the first tank I have run so "sterile". Started it off with carbon and gfo reactors, vinegar dosing in kalk [only when I needed a stronger concentration], etc. (Was an upgrade not a new setup). In previous tanks, I ran carbon passively and as far as gfo, never heard of it when I had my first reef tank and only ran a couple times passively in the tank I upgraded from. Maybe it's time I stop treating for issues that don't even exist and go back to keeping things simple.


DDon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 10:27 AM   #1131
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
My problem is not so much tried and true stuff like nitrate and phosphate control. My real problem ws the hsir algae was getting put of control and I misread the low nitrate as "no" nitrate. Of course the HAwas gobbling it up. Reviewing what I was doing wrong I had to take a hard look at the way I was feeding the fish. The big mistake on my part was throwing the flake food in the sump chamber with the return pump. A lot of food simply never made it to the tank. Nitrate factory for sure and I was too willing to believe the low nitrate test results. Someone a lot smarter than me once wrote on here If ypu fon' know exactly what ypu are doing to your reef don't do it. I managed to turn a cosmetic problem into a disaster by not researching any potential side effects of marine algae killers. So far I've lost about 20 snails, three stonies, and my foot high nepthea is losing pieces of itself. If that stress continues with it being as toxic as it can be there is a real risk to the remaining corals. Time for a carbon change (grin). About 12 years ago I had a single Tonga mushroom die in my amazingly successful 80gal reef. Ten years without a single coral loss. Anyway it released turpenes when it died. Seventy two hours later every coral in my tank was history. I always pass that along. Thanks for your post and good luck.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 03:18 PM   #1132
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,865
One mushroom killed an entire tank? Ouch! I'd be unhappy. I'm sorry to hear about your losses.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 03:29 PM   #1133
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,843
So I've had my UV running continuously for a few weeks. No dinos but a ton of planktonic life... Baby shrimp, starfish, worms and some kinds of pods.

Here are the baby marine shrimp
http://youtu.be/FukA9LnuhWE

I think that some plankton doesn't get sucked into the overflow at night and doesn't get zapped. These guys tend to stay close to the rocks and sand. With the UV, I think it biases the plankton in favor of those that don't free float?


karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 06:21 PM   #1134
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Thanks Jonathan. Yeah it was years ago. The most striking thing was my wife and I kept smelling "turpentine" Even though the tank was in another room it didn't take long to find the source. I am a whole lot more relaxed now that it seems the dinos are in decline in my rather small system.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/26/2015, 07:13 PM   #1135
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDon View Post
Do you feel running the tank "dirty" was the key to you getting rid of dinos (or at least getting them under control)? Have you seen any change for the worse or better since you restarted your skimmer? If I remember correctly you also used kordon ich attach but don't remember what the result was for you.
I did the ich attack for five days at regular dose and didn't see any difference so I didn't continue for fear of "kicking my ecosystem back 3 billion years again". Things are still getting better after restarting my skimmer, I think I was on the verge of hair algae though.
I spent a lot of time and effort physically removing by blowing off the rocks, UV, 10uM filter socks, heavy skimming, although that helped it only got me 75% there and if I let up the dinos picked up. Removing as much of the sand bed as I could took me to 90% but still had dino loaded brown diatoms growing on the glass which I had to clean daily (no green micro algae at all). letting the water dirty up has taken me to a new level where the green film algae has out competed the brown, It's obviously not for nutrients but more for space or it actually eats the dinos, I don't know but my tank looks its best in a year. I'm hedging my bet on phyto regenerating my ecosystem back to pre algaex conditions and putting the final nail in the dino coffin.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/27/2015, 12:23 PM   #1136
mathman7728
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 230
brown vs green film on glass

i still see dinos on the sand bed (i dont see hairs or bubbles--i hope that is because i try not to let them get away from me) but i noticed that the glass has a brown film but not a green film. what is the difference between green vs brown...what is that saying about the DT?


mathman7728 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/27/2015, 03:47 PM   #1137
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathman7728 View Post
i still see dinos on the sand bed (i dont see hairs or bubbles--i hope that is because i try not to let them get away from me) but i noticed that the glass has a brown film but not a green film. what is the difference between green vs brown...what is that saying about the DT?
When I put the brown film under the microscope I saw 99% diatoms and 1% dinos. After I turned off the UV, skimmer and carbon for a couple weeks the green algae appeared and quickly took over from the brown film, when I put the green under the scope I see only algae and no dinos. I my case I believe the dinos were out competing the micro algae and when physically beaten back the diatoms took there place, by letting the water dirty up it allowed the micro algae and other micro fauna to get reestablished and out compete the diatoms and dinos.
I didn't restart the UV for fear of decimating the micro fauna again.
Like karimwassef says, you either go dirty or go clean and heavy UV, dirty is working for me.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/27/2015, 03:59 PM   #1138
lu9103
Registered Member
 
lu9103's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 72
One of my buddies had this issue in his tank and what he did , he got cardboard and cover all the sides of his tank, he made sure that thier was no light what so ever got into the tank, he then turned off all his lights to the tank for 3 days and on the 4th day he uncovered the tank it they were all gone. I hope this helps.


lu9103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/27/2015, 03:59 PM   #1139
EvMiBo
VictoriaConcordiaCrescit
 
EvMiBo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Posts: 2,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_stir View Post
When I put the brown film under the microscope I saw 99% diatoms and 1% dinos. After I turned off the UV, skimmer and carbon for a couple weeks the green algae appeared and quickly took over from the brown film, when I put the green under the scope I see only algae and no dinos. I my case I believe the dinos were out competing the micro algae and when physically beaten back the diatoms took there place, by letting the water dirty up it allowed the micro algae and other micro fauna to get reestablished and out compete the diatoms and dinos.
I didn't restart the UV for fear of decimating the micro fauna again.
Like karimwassef says, you either go dirty or go clean and heavy UV, dirty is working for me.
What size UV and brand were you using? What pump were you using? What volume is the system?


__________________
Evan | DSA 135g Peninsula
EvMiBo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/27/2015, 04:01 PM   #1140
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
Another note, when I dirtied up the tank cyano started to take over as well but since restarting my skimmer and carbon it is subsiding to.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/27/2015, 04:08 PM   #1141
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
I was using a coralife 12x 36watt running about 400 gph plumbed off my reeflo dart return pump .
I have a 90 gal display with @ 200 gal total volume.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/29/2015, 09:48 AM   #1142
mathman7728
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 230
lights out for 10 days

curious if anyone has tried this….it seems to me that all this time and money we spend to kill these damn dinos could be saved if we can simply do lights out for 10 days…has anyone tried that?


mathman7728 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/29/2015, 10:43 AM   #1143
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,843
When you turn the lights on, the dinos will come back.

They are mixotrophic - that means that they are photosynthetic and heterotrophic.

Unlike algae, they can absorb other nutrients to survive.


karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/29/2015, 10:56 AM   #1144
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Mathman..... If you were to turn your lights off for ten days your corals if you have any would be dead, dead, and kaput. Most if not all of rest of your tank would be a lot worse off too. Dinos were surviving like crazy just like cyano long before dinosaurs. Anyway the good part is that by kerping your tank healthy you force them to compete with other microscopic critters for nutrients. My experience.... I have been reefing for twenty years os so without a hint of dinos. Cyano....yup a few times. I recently cleared my tank of hair algae using a marine "algae killer". It worked like a charm. So good that it apparantly killed all of the microscopic algae too. In a single day my tank went from "what is that brown stuff? to a point where I couldn't even keep the glass clear with scrubbing twice a day. My best success was in cleaning the sump,installing fresh phosphate and nitrate removers and finally re installing my UV sterilizer. It has been about two weeks now. The rocks are clear, the corals are obviously relieved and the dinos are down to maybe four or five dime sized spots on the sand and fading quickly. I've only had to clean the glass once in about a week now. Just my experience. Good luck.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/29/2015, 11:01 AM   #1145
shred5
Registered Member
 
shred5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Waukesha , WI
Posts: 4,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikefromaz View Post
It was proven a long time ago that dinos flouish in an excess of nutrients. Long Island sound has been plagued by red tide (dinos) whixh kill fish and inverts on a scale hard gor most people to visualize. Anyway the culprits have long been known to be nitrate based fertilizers and phosphate based detergents washing from farms and towns into the local watershed and ultimately into the sound. By the way back inthe sixties laws were passed barring phosphate detergents. In less than a year fishing and the shellfish industry were astounded by the recovery of the system. Unfortunatly the big money soap suds producets got the rulings repealed. Look up the state of Long Island fisheries if you need convincing. Any ecosystem is kept in balance by the amount of available food. The only reason dinos would subside is if they ate themselves into starvation. It is a hard way to gp bouncing back and forth between cyano/dino outbreaks trying to cure the problem with a dirty fish tank treatment. It just invites more problems down the line.
n

There is a difference..
I found that dino's can out compete other algae at very low nutrient levels.

With slightly elevated levels of nutrients other green algae can actually out compete dino's.

Now excess nutrient can provide enough for all types of algae and I dont think anyone is talking that. It like during cylce you get all kinds of algae.

I had suggested a while back that since dino's can live at so low of nutrient levels some other element might limit their growth. I mean if people were raising their nutrient levels and growing other green algae and the dino's disappeared the green algae had to be removing something from the water that dino's need.

Since allot of people I know that had them lived in areas where the water was higher in iron that might be it. Plus iron is known to help in plant and algae growth. Some people have tried cupisorb and said it had positive results. I am wondering if anyone has tried MetaSorb UHC ..


__________________
David Polzin

Last edited by shred5; 05/29/2015 at 11:12 AM.
shred5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/01/2015, 09:21 AM   #1146
natas
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 390
I wanted to update where I am with my Dino issue and also ask for some suggestions.

I gave up on my fight about 6 months ago. Basically I let the tank crash. I stopped all dosing (2 part and vodka/vinegar), stopped the skimmer and stopped changing water. About 4 months into this I stopped seeing the dino. So I continued down this path for another 2 months until yesterday.

I am sure you can imagine but the tank is filthy and I lost almost all my sps coral. I have green hair algae all over the rocks and the water is somewhat green. Yesterday I cleaned my skimmer and turned it back on and did a 10% water. I am going to do another 10% water change this weekend and let the system run for 1-2 months like this without dosing any carbon or 2 part.

If the dino comes back do you guys have any suggestions? I am actually thinking of getting a larger tank and just starting over. Do you guys suggest I continue taking it slow?


natas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/01/2015, 10:29 AM   #1147
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Natas.... I can only offer my experience. My approach was essentially the exact opposite from yours. I cleaned anything and everything that might harbor dinos. That included filter sponges, the sump, vacuuming the sand, rocks cleaning the glass on a daily basis for about two weeks. Three bags of Purigen and a fresh charge of Phosguard in the reactor. Finally I began dosing with vodka and restarted a UV sterilizer which I had from a previous tank. The biggest impact was from the dosing and the UV. This dino thing was no joke. I lost about 20 cerith snails, my trumpet, alveopora and goniopora corals. Now...about three weeks since starting my corals are looking great. The fish have their huge appatite back and instead of cleaning the glass twice a day so I could actually see thru the dinos, I have only cleaned it once this week, actually more of a minor touch up. Sand and rocks are all good. I went into this mess knowing absolutely nothing about dinos but learned a lot here. My problem was caused by a marine algae killer which gave the dinos an articially induced nutrient advantage to to lack of competition due to the totality of the algae killer effect.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/01/2015, 11:37 AM   #1148
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,843
I cleared mine up with a UV sterilizer @ low flow, and skimming constantly.

At night, the dinos become free floating and will get pulled into the UV and the dead exported by skimming.


karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06/01/2015, 11:31 PM   #1149
Mikefromaz
Registered Member
 
Mikefromaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona (well it was an ocean once :)
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I cleared mine up with a UV sterilizer @ low flow, and skimming constantly.

At night, the dinos become free floating and will get pulled into the UV and the dead exported by skimming.
Yes, I put my 9W. Turbo twist back in service with a new bulb and Rio 180 pump. I managed to restrict the flow to 51 G/hr. , slightly below their "slow" requirement for pathogens. So far it seems to be working.


Mikefromaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/02/2015, 06:15 AM   #1150
EvMiBo
VictoriaConcordiaCrescit
 
EvMiBo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Posts: 2,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikefromaz View Post
Yes, I put my 9W. Turbo twist back in service with a new bulb and Rio 180 pump. I managed to restrict the flow to 51 G/hr. , slightly below their "slow" requirement for pathogens. So far it seems to be working.
Sorry if you mentioned it before, but how big is the system? A 9w UV setup is pretty small.


__________________
Evan | DSA 135g Peninsula
EvMiBo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:28 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014