Reef Central Online Community
SpectraPure

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 10/16/2015, 10:42 PM   #2051
Quiet_Ivy
Registered Member
 
Quiet_Ivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohnny View Post
Anyone have experience with this?
Sorry I've been AWOL, all my elderly relatives are deciding to climb up ladders and fall into the rhubarb.

Using dirty method, dosing nitrates to ~5ppm, phos is .03. Feeding a rotation of frozen mysis, emerald entree, heavy doses of phytofeast, ROE, NLS teeny pellets and oyster eggs. No water changes. Running minimal carbon, mechanical filtration at night. No skimming or water changes. I think my tank may be turning a corner.. I have had a couple of snail deaths which is worrying, but the other inverts are ok. Having a lot of cyano in the one corner where a crab and shrimp molt wound up but otherwise I see a whole lot of green algae, diatoms (weirdly). Still seeing at least 2 genera of dinos under the microscope but I can't scrape enough off the glass/filter socks to get Sommus' test to work.


@bigjohnny I have a load of corals from my bro in law's tank which exploded near the beginning of the month. Includes 2 palm sized Monti caps and 3-4 unknowns. The fuzzy sticks actually look really happy, with good PE. They are very brown, but the bleaching from the shock of being dropped onto the floor is actually reversing. I also have crap lights compared with bil. 2 monti caps, seem ok but one has a white margin I'm not sure about.

@bheron the carbon is more to soak up toxins. I run it since I have toxic Ostreopsis and have had a lot of deaths. Skimmer did nothing for me but some people have had good results. Dinos suck up *insane* amounts of nitrates and phosphates. I have had to actually dose nitrates to maintain a reading.

@billybatz Glad to hear you're getting somewhere! I would try to gently suck the cyano up with a turkey baster. Water changes don't do much for cyano (imho) because it can fix its own nitrogen anyway.

@karimwassif I think dirty vs clean is where one is on the ocd scale. Some people are driven insane by algae patches and want tight control of what goes on in the tank. People like me are kinda lazy, like the idea of random critters and aren't going for a TOTM aquarium. There's probably a correlation between having sps and getting dinos; I just got "lucky".

ivy


__________________
28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15

Last edited by Quiet_Ivy; 10/16/2015 at 10:44 PM. Reason: forgot to add that I feed my fishies
Quiet_Ivy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/19/2015, 03:28 PM   #2052
Quiet_Ivy
Registered Member
 
Quiet_Ivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 390
Good paper on blackouts and dinos!

I found this fascinating paper on using blackouts to kill dinos! (Hey Google, why on earth didn't you kick this up in the gazillion previous searches I've done??) 3 day blackouts are *not* effective, it has to be at *least* 5 days, 8 for total kill.

A maximum of 75% of the cells were found to be dead—according to the Sytox staining technique—after 5 days in darkness. Duplicate sub-cultures from 3 day dark cultures resulted in regrowth of vegetative cells, after a short lag period. By contrast, duplicate sub-cultures from 8 day dark cultures produced no detectable growth (increases in fluorescence) over a three week monitoring period.


From: Mortality in cultures of the dinoflagellate Amphidinium carterae during culture senescence and darkness Daniel J. Franklin and John A. Berges (pdf file)

found during a search for photoperiod and cyanobacteria of all things.
Ivy


__________________
28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
Quiet_Ivy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/19/2015, 06:44 PM   #2053
BigJohnny
Registered Member
 
BigJohnny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy View Post
I found this fascinating paper on using blackouts to kill dinos! (Hey Google, why on earth didn't you kick this up in the gazillion previous searches I've done??) 3 day blackouts are *not* effective, it has to be at *least* 5 days, 8 for total kill.

A maximum of 75% of the cells were found to be dead—according to the Sytox staining technique—after 5 days in darkness. Duplicate sub-cultures from 3 day dark cultures resulted in regrowth of vegetative cells, after a short lag period. By contrast, duplicate sub-cultures from 8 day dark cultures produced no detectable growth (increases in fluorescence) over a three week monitoring period.


From: Mortality in cultures of the dinoflagellate Amphidinium carterae during culture senescence and darkness Daniel J. Franklin and John A. Berges (pdf file)

found during a search for photoperiod and cyanobacteria of all things.
Ivy
Depends on the species and stage of development/colonization. I know people who have had success with 3 days


BigJohnny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/19/2015, 06:58 PM   #2054
garygonzales
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: WEST ALLIS ,WI
Posts: 825
ive have success with 3 days also...


garygonzales is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10/19/2015, 07:02 PM   #2055
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,847
I agree that the study covers only one species of dinoflagellate. I don't know how common that particular species is, but I think it's interesting that it took 8 days to kill it off. Maybe a longer dark period would be a good idea for tanks that show no effect from a shorter period.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10/19/2015, 11:00 PM   #2056
Billybatz9
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 557
Can corals and anemones go 8 days without light? What about fish?


Billybatz9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/20/2015, 12:09 AM   #2057
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,847
The fish should be okay. I'd expect that corals and anemones would be okay, but I can't be sure.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10/20/2015, 01:59 AM   #2058
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
I'm too lazy to read through my own posts right now, but I did 5 days if I remember it correctly and the effect it had on Ostreopsis was just like pressing pause and it was an automatic resume after the light came back on.

They are mixotrophic meaning lights out are not a problem for their energy needs and then there are the cysts.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/20/2015, 10:04 AM   #2059
PorkchopExpress
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Wrigleyville
Posts: 103
the longest i was able to go was 5 days before my sps started dying (my goal back then was 7 days)...i had to do 3 days, then 1 day of reduced light, then 2 days before i started noticing some stn and i stopped...of course back then my sps stn'ing could have been a multitude of other factors such as H2O2/UltraAlgaeX/Dinoxal dosing and many other things i was trying

i can do 3 days with absolutely no problem, in fact they seem to actually like a 3 day lights out once in a while - when i uncover the tank their polyps are all out, no signs of color loss, and they've continued to grow during the lights out

fish are fine depending on what you have...i have anthias so when i do lights out, i will turn on the blues every 2nd night for 15-30 minutes just to feed him and any others that want to eat then cover the tank again...but generally they are fine for a few days without any food

ps - as mentioned above, i've found blackouts to be temporary bandaids...they always came back afterwards, sometimes stronger than previously although i never tried more than 5 days...i suppose if you blackout for long enough, anything photosynthetic would die including most dinos



Last edited by PorkchopExpress; 10/20/2015 at 10:29 AM.
PorkchopExpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/20/2015, 11:40 AM   #2060
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
I would like to point out that filter-socks used in dino infested tanks could be a health risk after washing and drying.
They can potentially collect a lot of toxins in a few days of use in the tank. The toxins are not neutralized with boiling and the little that did not get washed off can easily get airborne after the sock dries.

A solution could be to store them in a salt bucked.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/20/2015, 04:29 PM   #2061
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,847
I wouldn't boil a filter sock under any circumstances. Hydrogen peroxide or bleach should break down any toxins, if enough is used.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10/20/2015, 05:26 PM   #2062
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I wouldn't boil a filter sock under any circumstances.
Not the best choice of words on my behalf.
I was just saying the heat in in washing machine has no effect on the toxins.
Boiling is really dangerous since the toxins can be breathed in with the steam.

After my socks get cleaned and dried they give off smelly odor and it's clear that there are still particles stuck in the socks massive surface area. Dust them off and you could be breathing them in.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/20/2015, 07:56 PM   #2063
Quiet_Ivy
Registered Member
 
Quiet_Ivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA View Post
I would like to point out that filter-socks used in dino infested tanks could be a health risk after washing and drying.
They can potentially collect a lot of toxins in a few days of use in the tank. The toxins are not neutralized with boiling and the little that did not get washed off can easily get airborne after the sock dries.

A solution could be to store them in a salt bucked.
I'm using cheesecloth and throwing it out for exactly that reason. Dinos make my asthma a lot worse. Modern washing machines suck, they don't even kill dust mites and other allergens. Did you know that Ostreopsis ovata makes palytoxin, the toxin that's been poisoning the heck out of aquarium enthusiasts lately? Scary.

Amphidinium is one of the most common genera Pants identified in people's tanks, along with Ostreopsis and Symbiodinium. His website with pics: http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

I'm not recommending 8 day blackouts, I have no idea if that's safe for other life. I just find it interesting that they tested the usual 3 days and found dinos regrew very well. That has certainly been my experience.

8 days is the length of time it took the dinos to starve-even mixotrophic organisms must prey on something. They were checking on starvation vs apoptosis/chemotrophy.

hth
ivy


__________________
28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
Quiet_Ivy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/21/2015, 11:28 AM   #2064
cal_stir
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: corunna,ontario,canada
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by bheron View Post
Question about the Dirty method. I've seen some recent posts showing people going Dirty but also skimming and running carbon.

Does that still qualify as dirty? I havent done either while in dirty mode. Is it recommended I wet skim and run carbon?
I recommend no skimming until you start to notice the early stages of hair algae then start skimming dry, a small amount of carbon to remove toxins, maybe 1/4 of what is recommended for your size system.


cal_stir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 10:47 AM   #2065
Billybatz9
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 557
Going to order filter socks to siphon water into... hopefully will catch some dinoflagellates.
Should I go with 10 microns or 25?


Billybatz9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 12:07 PM   #2066
Budman422
Registered Member
 
Budman422's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 218
I always use a little bleach when I wash my filter socks. Hoping it kills everything. Plus I run through an extra rinse cycle to get rid of bleach residue. This may not be the best way but has worked with no apparent effects


Budman422 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 07:40 PM   #2067
scubadan206
Registered Member
 
scubadan206's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Kenosha WI
Posts: 981
When my tank had dino's, my nitrates and phosphates were at zero. Mine went through a two week blackout. After the die-off my nitrates spiked to over 150. All the algae died and released it all back into the water column. I then did about a 90% waterchange. Have not seen any of the stuff since.
If you are wondering, I removed any coral I could to another tank.

Daniel.


scubadan206 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 08:27 PM   #2068
Cyberdude
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 352
Dinoflagellates.

Been three weeks without dinos and still have no detectable nitrates or phosphates. Been feeding 4 times a day and haven't done a water change in two months.

No chemical filtration. No carbon.
Just a skimmer and filter floss. And a ton of cheato.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445563659.102538.jpg


Cyberdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 08:32 PM   #2069
Billybatz9
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberdude View Post
Been three weeks without dinos and still have no detectable nitrates or phosphates. Been feeding 4 times a day and haven't done a water change in two months.

No chemical filtration. No carbon.
Just a skimmer and filter floss. And a ton of cheato.

Attachment 331662
You used Dino x right?


Billybatz9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 08:37 PM   #2070
Cyberdude
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 352
Yup. And been feeding very heavy since I started the 4 doses to today. Also started dry skimming. Corals are very happy.


Cyberdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 08:51 PM   #2071
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,833
I'll make a few claims here - and see what you think

"Dinos explode when the majority of rock in the system is artificial or decimated through bleaching/baking, etc..."

Another claim:

"The lack of biofauna creates an environment like the ancient oceans, where dinos were prevalent without predators or sufficient competitors"

Final claim:

"Systems with stablished bio rich rocks are not susceptible unless chemicals are used to kill the biofauna on the rocks (like algae or bacteria killers) or starve them."

...


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10/22/2015, 09:12 PM   #2072
Cyberdude
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 352
I think the final claim is what did me in


Cyberdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/23/2015, 02:18 AM   #2073
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I'll make a few claims here - and see what you think

"Dinos explode when the majority of rock in the system is artificial or decimated through bleaching/baking, etc..."

Another claim:

"The lack of biofauna creates an environment like the ancient oceans, where dinos were prevalent without predators or sufficient competitors"

Final claim:

"Systems with stablished bio rich rocks are not susceptible unless chemicals are used to kill the biofauna on the rocks (like algae or bacteria killers) or starve them."

...
I like the metaphors and yes, this is nicely put on what we have been saying for the last months.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/23/2015, 02:33 AM   #2074
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,833
I'm writing an article of man made rock, so this is good confirmation thus far.

I wonder how long artificial rock needs to cycle and with what grade of live rock to overcome the deficiency of life.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10/23/2015, 02:50 AM   #2075
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
I know of a tank where the rocks were imported directly to be fresher than any of us can have.
The tank had dinos for a while but I think it's not visible any more.

You got link in pm if you like to serearch.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:31 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014