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Old 11/13/2015, 08:24 PM   #2201
Billybatz9
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Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I don't believe that any sea hare will eat dinoflagellates, but I've been surprised before. I suppose a starving sea hare might in theory ingest a lot of things. They might disturb the dinoflagellates while looking for something to eat, which might be good enough.
What would you recommend to feed a sea hare if there is no green hair algae in a tank for testing purposes. Would have for it to die and nuke my tank


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Old 11/13/2015, 08:30 PM   #2202
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I don't think there's any way to feed a sea hare other than algae in the tank.


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Old 11/13/2015, 08:47 PM   #2203
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You can feed it nori tied to a rock, but be prepared to put out a LOT of nori.


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Old 11/14/2015, 02:43 AM   #2204
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Anyone use a sea hare before?
If there was an easy solution it would have been discovered at least a decade ago.
We are on a track here already that seems to lead to real improvements.

A healthy microfauna is what we are going for.


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Old 11/16/2015, 01:01 PM   #2205
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i had a very small dino problem and what worked for me is what the latest part of this thread is getting to...

i went dirty (not the clean method) because i think the tank was too clean (too much skimming and not enough feeding). i changed skimming to relatively dry and the skimmer is only on from 8pm till 6am instead of all day. i feed at least 3x day mostly frozen (the fish love it and their coloration is excellent) but some "finicky fish" formula sinking pellets. orgiinally i did add a new round of pods and phyo but havent done that since. in the beginning, i did have a cyno (red color mostly and on the sand) that i did treat with chemiclean at the beginning (there is some discussion of how dinos and cyno are linked so i wanted to nuke the cyno). i did NOT have any problems with the chemiclean and my corals, inverts, etc. i would use it again if needed. i also had turf style algae that nothing would eat. my apporach to the visable turf algae and dinos (on the rocks) was to actually remove the rock, apply bleach to the specific area on the rock (used a pipit to direct the bleach where i wanted it), scrubed the turf algea with a brush dipped in bleach and then replaced the rock. that was months ago and no sign of turf in the DT (though i see it in the sump) or dinos anywhere. i get plently of green and brown algae on the glass.

go dirty method my friend, kill any cyno if you have it, add as much different micro fauna as you can find, cut back on skimming and feed lots.


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Old 11/18/2015, 08:31 PM   #2206
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I have nitrates of 20ppm. Should I do water change? I don't watch to fuel dinoflagellates


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Old 11/18/2015, 09:05 PM   #2207
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Yay, I get to get in on this thread. I've been following for years now waiting for my next outbreak. I'm actually surprised it took this long.

I've experienced just about every kind of outbreak one can experience when dealing with rocks and substrates. From basic GHA, diatoms and Cyano to Bryopsis and Dinos. Though the one algae I don't think I've ever had is bubble.

There was quite a gap though from when I finally tackled phosphates leaching from pukani dry rock for a good year or so up until last year when the room next to my sump room was heavily cleaned with mold and mildew remover while I wasn't home and wiped out any invert not burried in the sand it seems and what I assume an ammonia spike taking out several fish.

After that was a nice mix of turf, GHA, bryopsis, cyano, diatoms, and I'm sure I left something out. I didn't do anything. Didn't even get into pulling any of it out. I was awaiting for the dino to hit. It never came. Everything cleared up on its own or I should say with nothing beyond what I normally do.

A little over a month ago I got an Apex AFS feeder. I learned a lesson in not programming anything on the Apex while not in front of the tank and/or while distracted playing games with kids. I eventually dumped the entire container that was just filled full in the mater of an hour or so. Noticed it later that night. Oh well.

As expected on came the onslaught. But this time it looks like I finally got my last wave in rounding it a off with a nice matting of Dinos. It's only on two rocks though and mainly on one of the two.

I figure I'll do nothing again. Beyond what I normally do that is.






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Old 11/19/2015, 12:12 AM   #2208
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This is an interesting story Jason.
A massive dry food overdose opens the door for dinos.

Several drastic things must have happened to bacteria, chemical composition, oxygen etc.
Did you test your water during this period or notice anything in particular?


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Old 11/19/2015, 02:15 AM   #2209
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Hmmm... Dirty method brings dinos and dirty method sends them away?


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Old 11/19/2015, 12:44 PM   #2210
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This is an interesting story Jason.
A massive dry food overdose opens the door for dinos.

Several drastic things must have happened to bacteria, chemical composition, oxygen etc.
Did you test your water during this period or notice anything in particular?
Yeah, I'd have to go back into my tank journal thread for specific numbers but I do know my phosphates jumped quite a bit after that mass feedding. Nitrates undetectable. I wasn't' expecting Nitrates to move but remember testing anyway. I've never had any issues with maintaining low nitrates under 5.

I did put on some GFO to get the phosphates back down to just under .1 and took the GFO back out after that. I normally do not have to run GFO and haven't for years.

I just think the instability there with the nutrients and what was the main consumer of those nutrients opened a window here for the Dinos to bloom. I don't think they are ever gone at least not in my tank. Just like all the different algae and cyano. It's in my tank just doesn't have a chance to take hold. I imagine the Dinos started taking hold but wasn't able to fully bloom like this until just the past couple weeks.

I don't know anything about using dirty or clean methods. Just time. Keep things consistent. Seems like any inconsistency opens the doors. I've never done black outs or chemicals. Well, beyond salt mix, Mg, kalk in my ATO, and a carbon source like vinegar.

For nutrient export:
I change saltwater ~1% daily via a spectrapure AWC. Used to have Ozone running a few hours a day at a very small dose. But since implementing a Turbo ATS my ORP count has climbed steadily and a couple months ago went above 400 which is my cut off point so haven't been dosing any Ozone. There's another thing I use which is harvesting algae via a turf scrubber which has been working wonderfully. Basic skimmer that's not over rated by any means (currently an Aquamaxx EM300) that's been very consistent. Then I dose around 100ml/day of vinegar which I believe is my main means of keeping Nitrates down and maintains lower PO4 with the assistance of everything mentioned previously. I do run a reversed undergravel filter as well which I'm thinking it may actually help reduce nitrates too but if anything grows a tremendous amount of zooplankton like many various pods and worms.

My import of nutrients:
I have a fairly heavy fish bioload and feed a lot. I have said automatic feeder that drops a decent amount of pellets 4x per day. I add at least one sheet of algae in a day. I feed at least 2-3x a day a mixture of meaty stuff.

My parameters are usually always pretty steady and are in a target range. Here's a couple threads I started a couple weeks ago as the diatoms were starting to show themselves showing my parameters and just about all parameters that could possibly or reasonably, test for by myself and Triton. I'll be doing a full round of testing soon too.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2537234
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2538789

So, I would say I have "clean" water? I don't do any kind of mechanical filtering besides a skimmer but they are not a very efficient mechanical filter. So, my water isn't "polished" by any means.

I will basically do what I have been doing. Not changing anything and staying the course keeping consistency which I believe overreacting and instability can lead to other issues causing a chain reaction or snow ball effect.

My long running tank journal that I've updated with any significant changes since I restarted the hobby after loosing everything to a flood in 2008.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...673282&page=59


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Old 11/19/2015, 10:33 PM   #2211
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Sorry I've been awol, elderly relative needed a bionic replacement. I've been away from my tank and unfortunately N and P completely crashed -I'm getting 0 phos with the Hanna checker, which is nonsensical. Dinos are actually killing off the cyano, I can see them encroaching on the patches daily. My poor rescued conch died, probably because the sandbed has gone toxic. Grrr! I'm out of phyto too, really should be culturing it. I really may need to add a 3rd fish.

@jason2459 It sounds to me like your tank is very stable, mature, and has good biodiversity..that's why it can fight off the dinos. The food dump probably started a mini cycle, but your tank is resilient so you saw normal algae succession and the dinos lost. I certainly wouldn't mess with a system that is working so well. Those of us using the 'dirty method' are actually trying to replicate your tank.

BTW I think you're only the 2nd reefer I've heard using an RUGF. I had freshwater tanks as a kid but we used hob biowheels.

@Billybatz Gosh no dude. The idea behind the dirty method is to make conditions good for green algae, which will grow happily and faster than the dinos, which will die out. If you're not seeing green algae, but you are seeing dinos, hang tough.

Glad to see some of the regulars' tanks recovering tho!
ivy


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Old 11/20/2015, 09:53 AM   #2212
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Sorry I've been awol, elderly relative needed a bionic replacement. I've been away from my tank and unfortunately N and P completely crashed -I'm getting 0 phos with the Hanna checker, which is nonsensical. Dinos are actually killing off the cyano, I can see them encroaching on the patches daily. My poor rescued conch died, probably because the sandbed has gone toxic. Grrr! I'm out of phyto too, really should be culturing it. I really may need to add a 3rd fish.

@jason2459 It sounds to me like your tank is very stable, mature, and has good biodiversity..that's why it can fight off the dinos. The food dump probably started a mini cycle, but your tank is resilient so you saw normal algae succession and the dinos lost. I certainly wouldn't mess with a system that is working so well. Those of us using the 'dirty method' are actually trying to replicate your tank.

BTW I think you're only the 2nd reefer I've heard using an RUGF. I had freshwater tanks as a kid but we used hob biowheels.

@Billybatz Gosh no dude. The idea behind the dirty method is to make conditions good for green algae, which will grow happily and faster than the dinos, which will die out. If you're not seeing green algae, but you are seeing dinos, hang tough.

Glad to see some of the regulars' tanks recovering tho!
ivy
I actually just tested all my params.
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 20ppm
Ammonia 0.5ppm

Still think I should avoid water change?


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Old 11/20/2015, 10:15 AM   #2213
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Thanks ivy. It's fairly established now. But my first encounter with them my system wasn't. It was with my 55g and I think it was about a year and a half after getting it setup I hit a stage of Dinos.

So far both times happened after waves of cyano and multiple types of algae. So yeah I can see where people are going with the dirty method trying to get algae to out compete the Dinos. I think patience, consistency, and just not trying to keep a sterile tank is good.


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Old 11/20/2015, 06:58 PM   #2214
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I actually just tested all my params.
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 20ppm
Ammonia 0.5ppm

Still think I should avoid water change?
Did something big die? I just checked back in the thread and you haven't mentioned doing anything drastic. That's way high ammonia. I would double dose Prime immediately. If you're sure the ammonia is right, yeah, water change. (And don't buy a sea hare.)

hth
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Last edited by Quiet_Ivy; 11/20/2015 at 07:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11/20/2015, 09:31 PM   #2215
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Did something big die? I just checked back in the thread and you haven't mentioned doing anything drastic. That's way high ammonia. I would double dose Prime immediately. If you're sure the ammonia is right, yeah, water change. (And don't buy a sea hare.)

hth
ivy
No not really. Just a a couple hermits. All fish are alive. I dont know why the ammonia built up.

One thing I did was not change out a filter sock for like 2 weeks. I ran a filter sock in my biocube 29 to filter out all the dinoflagellates (10 micron). First time using a filter sock, so I did not know I was supposed to replace them like every 2 - 3 days.

Could this have been nitrate and ammonia problem?

I did water change today and vacummed sand bed. Lets hope the dino bloom isnt too bad.

I lost my birdsnest colony


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Old 11/20/2015, 09:48 PM   #2216
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I did a quick round of testing last night with some extensive PO4 testing for a shoot out among several kits. All looked pretty normal and in range of what I like.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2540702

1 Nitrates
.03 PO4

The Dino's are looking more bubbly and stringy.


@billybatz9 You should be able to test for ammonia again and should have 0 by now if your bacteria necessary to cycle it is up to par. If you still have ammonia readings a polyfilter and GAC may be a good idea if your hermits died. Could be something else beside ammonia which is impacting some inverts and the bacteria necessary to process the ammonia.

Running a filter sock unmaintained I highly doubt would spike ammonia or cause any kind of rise in it. Nitrates could be increased by that but it's not nearly as toxic if at all in the levels indicated.


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Old 11/20/2015, 10:20 PM   #2217
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I did a quick round of testing last night with some extensive PO4 testing for a shoot out among several kits. All looked pretty normal and in range of what I like.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2540702

1 Nitrates
.03 PO4

The Dino's are looking more bubbly and stringy.


@billybatz9 You should be able to test for ammonia again and should have 0 by now if your bacteria necessary to cycle it is up to par. If you still have ammonia readings a polyfilter and GAC may be a good idea if your hermits died. Could be something else beside ammonia which is impacting some inverts and the bacteria necessary to process the ammonia.

Running a filter sock unmaintained I highly doubt would spike ammonia or cause any kind of rise in it. Nitrates could be increased by that but it's not nearly as toxic if at all in the levels indicated.
Thanks for reply ! I will test again tomorrow morning (sleepy now)

I really dont know what it was that spiked the ammonia. Kinda weird. I use dr tims one and only live bacteria, fritz zyme 9, and ocean water for water changes, so I should have all sorts of bacteria to break it down.


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Old 11/21/2015, 10:29 AM   #2218
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Update
I am now 6 months dino free, still culturing and adding phyto and pods.
[email protected] 0.04 and [email protected] 5 ppm, bubble algae almost all gone as well.
The dirty method worked for me.
Ostreopsis Ovata sp.


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Old 11/21/2015, 12:19 PM   #2219
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Only Dino I see is some brown film on wave makers and chaeto. I guess it could be anything. But my nitrates got up to about 30 and phosphate read 0 on api test. I'm sure if I do a w/c the Dino's will appear more. I'm thinking about carbon dosing but have never tried it and only briefly read up on it. How else can I reduce nitrates? I don't think the chaeto in my new refugium is growing (probably because Dino's are taking out all the phosphate???).
Input anyone?


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Old 11/21/2015, 01:15 PM   #2220
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Update
I am now 6 months dino free, still culturing and adding phyto and pods.
[email protected] 0.04 and [email protected] 5 ppm, bubble algae almost all gone as well.
The dirty method worked for me.
Ostreopsis Ovata sp.

Have a pic of your setup of phyto and pods?

How do you separate the pods from the poo?


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Old 11/21/2015, 01:15 PM   #2221
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Only Dino I see is some brown film on wave makers and chaeto. I guess it could be anything. But my nitrates got up to about 30 and phosphate read 0 on api test. I'm sure if I do a w/c the Dino's will appear more. I'm thinking about carbon dosing but have never tried it and only briefly read up on it. How else can I reduce nitrates? I don't think the chaeto in my new refugium is growing (probably because Dino's are taking out all the phosphate???).
Input anyone?
I have nitrate problem also. Would like to see what you do. I did water change and nitrates are still up


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Old 11/21/2015, 01:21 PM   #2222
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Looks worse in this picture but in person the Dinos are looking pretty pathetic.




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Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
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Old 11/21/2015, 01:27 PM   #2223
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Only Dino I see is some brown film on wave makers and chaeto. I guess it could be anything. But my nitrates got up to about 30 and phosphate read 0 on api test. I'm sure if I do a w/c the Dino's will appear more. I'm thinking about carbon dosing but have never tried it and only briefly read up on it. How else can I reduce nitrates? I don't think the chaeto in my new refugium is growing (probably because Dino's are taking out all the phosphate???).
Input anyone?
I would highly suggest getting a different test kit for PO4. I just wrote this up reviewing multiple test kits

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2540702

I'm a big fan of carbon dosing for nitrate reduction. Harvesting algae is another good method and can work together.

A couple good sources to read up on carbon dosing
Vodka
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...nftt/index.php

Vinegar
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....arine-aquarium

And on the combination of the two that's in RedSea
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...408985&page=11


My current favorite way to harvest algae and have a Turbo ATS doing really well.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...77420&page=289


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Old 11/23/2015, 08:38 AM   #2224
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Have a pic of your setup of phyto and pods?

How do you separate the pods from the poo?
Pretty simple setup, 3 pails for pods, Tisbe and Tiger copepods and Amphipods. I siphon the copepods thru a sieve and I have sponges in the amphipod pail that I shake out in tank water and rinse through sieves.
I have 3 bottles of nannochloris and 3 bottles of tetraselmis that I harvest alternately.




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Old 11/23/2015, 02:11 PM   #2225
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Pretty simple setup, 3 pails for pods, Tisbe and Tiger copepods and Amphipods. I siphon the copepods thru a sieve and I have sponges in the amphipod pail that I shake out in tank water and rinse through sieves.
I have 3 bottles of nannochloris and 3 bottles of tetraselmis that I harvest alternately.

Nice. Thanks


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