LaCl3 Dosing

arkaeus · 07/07/2013, 11:22 PM

I have been researching dosing LaCl3 on my tank for a few months now. I have read lots of material online, and most of the forms on it. From my reading I had a question I didn't see answered, or maybe I missed it?

For those interested, this is one of the best posts I have read on LaCl3

After dosing La a few times into dual 10micron filter socks, my RBTA and green sinularia would get all shriveled. Possibly due to Alk dropping, but I could swear I noticed some white stuff floating in the MT. I came up with this system in the pic. Its a big world, I'm sure others have designed this simple setup.. but I have not seen it, Easy to make. Water flows from the tank to the MJ1200 on the left, 550 Reactor is where Lanthanum has a long contact time with the water, BRS reactor is packed tightly with polyester filter floss, then flows into dual 10micron filter socks next to the skimmer for added safe guard. The lanthanum is dripped from a IV bag right before the MJ1200 usually @ 1dps.
A.L.C.R. (Arks Lanthanum Chloride Reactor) lol..

Lanthanum: foggy haze, and white stringy sticky icky

Lanthanum halfway from bottom up.

2 days worth. SeaKlear, Total of 50ml. 20ml diluted into 1000L Ro/DI. 320 total gallon system.

Dosing LaCl3 we know it also lowers Alk. I run Zeovit on my system and keep my Alk at 7.2. Dosing around 30ml of Lanthanum half a day will drop Alk from 7.2 to 6.4
Here is my question: Dosing Soda Ash before or while dosing Lanthanum. Can it cause the Lanthanum to bind to Alk over Phosphate? or do I have my facts wrong and lanthanum will always lower Alk and Phos a fixed %? I hope I worded all this correctly, greatly appreciate some responses.

Dave & Monica · 07/08/2013, 12:15 AM

For what it's worth, I don't think you'll be bonding PO4 while dosing alk, but it does prevent the drop. The LC is what's bonding. I'll bet you'll soon get sick of changing out the floss every few days. I still use the 5 micron sock from time to time but haven't in many months. For me I've been using bio pellets with great results lately. Good luck.

bertoni · 07/08/2013, 01:22 AM

Lanthanum chloride might provide nucleation sites. I'll try to check into that. Anything that raises the pH, like soda ash, can encourage more precipitation. Whether your dosing is causing more trouble would depend on a lot of factors, including the local pH effect (before the supplement is spread through the water column). Dosing into a small volume of water can make the problem worse.

tmz · 07/08/2013, 08:02 AM

It's the free lanthanum( lanthanum chloride disassociates in water to lanthanum and chloride) that binds PO4 or carbonate; PO4 preferentially as I understand it; but when carbonate is abundant and PO4 is low it will bind carbonate. Both PO4 and carbonate are alkainity, btw.

While careful filtering can get most or perhaps all of the lanthaum phosphate and or lanthaum carbonate precipitant; some free lanthanum will likely get trough and precipitate with PO4 or carbonate in the aquarium, particularly when PO4 is low. That activity may explain the "white suff" you see.That activity may be stressing certain organism and/or it may be teh rapiddrop in PO4 associated wit hlanthanum dosing. I've noticed some small white flakes in water samples taken for testing after dosing ,fwiw. Others have seen some significant hard to remove haze on galss surfaces .

tmz · 07/08/2013, 08:18 AM

When dosing lanthanum chloride there are two things to manage to limit post filtration precipitant or free lanthanum getting into the tank ,as I see it:

One ,the lanthanumum chloride dosed needs exposure to a sufficient volume of water containing enough PO4 and /or carbonate to use up the free lanthanum upstream from the filter.

Two, adequate filtration downstream to remove the precipitant.

JSimpson · 07/08/2013, 11:08 AM

Thanks for the information.
I've been dosing LC into my 90 gallon as well, diluting 1.0ml LC into 1/2 gallon of water, and dripping slowly over four to six hours into the overflow which feeds a 10micron sock. Your dose seems pretty high @ 30ml / day, but then again maybe my dose is really low? I've seen no ill effects on livestock, and have my phosphates down around .03-.04 ppm using the Hanna ULR checker.

I've been dosng twice a week for the past few weeks to try to establish a maintenance dosing level appropriate for my tank, and so far the levels are relatively constant as far as I can tell. I'm also not sure about the consistency of the Hanna checker (or myself, more likely) at levels below 0.05ppm as that is getting down pretty low in the range of the meter.

arkaeus · 07/08/2013, 02:33 PM

Thank you everyone, for the replies and good info. Please note.. Filtering out the lanthanum is not the issue here. I have no side effects in my sump or MT from dosing. The dual 10micron filter socks have no precipitate whatsoever. I think the tightly packed filter floss is doing the job, and if it doesn't then I will add a sand filter after the filter floss. The lowest I can get my Phos is .06 with my hanna meter. I understand it filters out less Phos at lower levels. I was just hoping someone would know if it picks Alk over Phos to bond too. Should I dose Alk, wait so many hours, and then dose LaCl? or can I dose LaCl and dose Soda Ash at the same time to keep Alk stable with the same results.

I have the SeaKlear bottle that comes diluted from the factory not the commercial strength. I had to hit at least 20ml to even notice a dent in my Phos levels. I would say I'm more dosing every other day. My real goal was .03 phos before I backed off and changed my GFO out to keep it around these ranges. Before I was dosing LaCl I was getting .10-.18 Phos and exhausting GFO extremely quick.

bertoni · 07/08/2013, 08:15 PM

You might be seeing some accuracy issues with the meter. I'd expect that the lanthanum chloride would lower the phosphate level better than that, if enough were dosed.

It'd take a lot of lanthanum chloride to precipitate much alkalinity, I think. I'll try to go over the numbers.

arkaeus · 07/09/2013, 03:33 PM

I have new powder coming in in a few days. I will retest. Somehow last night after dosing LaCl the meter is saying my phos is 1st @.36 then tested again @.34
With these numbers Im thinking something is wrong with my meter as every other time its always .10-.08-.06.... I have never had a reading of phos this high.
New reagents should be in Wend.
JonathaN, if you have time, please dont forget to go over the numbers =)

insomniac2k2 · 07/18/2013, 10:48 AM

I'm not quite sure why no one has mention that your dosage rate is insanely high. If I'm reading what you stated correctly, you are dosing 30ml of straight, undiluted LaCl3 a day?!

Something is very wrong with your readings.

I'm very surprised that everything in your tank hasn't died at this dosage rate. There is no way that you can keep that much LC contained in your filtration. Your tank is saturated with this stuff atm.

Not picking on you, just brain dumping.

I built my reactor setup quite some time ago now, and have experienced no ill effects. My dilution rate is based on SeaKlear CR 20ml to 1g of RODI. I dose somewhere near 3.5ML a n hour of this diluted mixture 24/7. My phos drop rate is about .01 every few days. You can search my threads if your interested in using my setup as reference.

tmz · 07/18/2013, 12:46 PM

30 ml of LC per half day for 250 gallons seems very high .

07/07/2013, 11:22 PM	#1
arkaeus Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 156	LaCl3 Dosing I have been researching dosing LaCl3 on my tank for a few months now. I have read lots of material online, and most of the forms on it. From my reading I had a question I didn't see answered, or maybe I missed it? For those interested, this is one of the best posts I have read on LaCl3 After dosing La a few times into dual 10micron filter socks, my RBTA and green sinularia would get all shriveled. Possibly due to Alk dropping, but I could swear I noticed some white stuff floating in the MT. I came up with this system in the pic. Its a big world, I'm sure others have designed this simple setup.. but I have not seen it, Easy to make. Water flows from the tank to the MJ1200 on the left, 550 Reactor is where Lanthanum has a long contact time with the water, BRS reactor is packed tightly with polyester filter floss, then flows into dual 10micron filter socks next to the skimmer for added safe guard. The lanthanum is dripped from a IV bag right before the MJ1200 usually @ 1dps. A.L.C.R. (Arks Lanthanum Chloride Reactor) lol.. Lanthanum: foggy haze, and white stringy sticky icky Lanthanum halfway from bottom up. 2 days worth. SeaKlear, Total of 50ml. 20ml diluted into 1000L Ro/DI. 320 total gallon system. Dosing LaCl3 we know it also lowers Alk. I run Zeovit on my system and keep my Alk at 7.2. Dosing around 30ml of Lanthanum half a day will drop Alk from 7.2 to 6.4 Here is my question: Dosing Soda Ash before or while dosing Lanthanum. Can it cause the Lanthanum to bind to Alk over Phosphate? or do I have my facts wrong and lanthanum will always lower Alk and Phos a fixed %? I hope I worded all this correctly, greatly appreciate some responses. __________________ Live Cam Feed http://m.ustream.tv/channel/codysreef Current Tank Info: 250 gallon (LPS,Softie) Last edited by arkaeus; 07/07/2013 at 11:38 PM.

07/08/2013, 01:22 AM	#3
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,473	Lanthanum chloride might provide nucleation sites. I'll try to check into that. Anything that raises the pH, like soda ash, can encourage more precipitation. Whether your dosing is causing more trouble would depend on a lot of factors, including the local pH effect (before the supplement is spread through the water column). Dosing into a small volume of water can make the problem worse. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

07/08/2013, 08:02 AM	#4
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	It's the free lanthanum( lanthanum chloride disassociates in water to lanthanum and chloride) that binds PO4 or carbonate; PO4 preferentially as I understand it; but when carbonate is abundant and PO4 is low it will bind carbonate. Both PO4 and carbonate are alkainity, btw. While careful filtering can get most or perhaps all of the lanthaum phosphate and or lanthaum carbonate precipitant; some free lanthanum will likely get trough and precipitate with PO4 or carbonate in the aquarium, particularly when PO4 is low. That activity may explain the "white suff" you see.That activity may be stressing certain organism and/or it may be teh rapiddrop in PO4 associated wit hlanthanum dosing. I've noticed some small white flakes in water samples taken for testing after dosing ,fwiw. Others have seen some significant hard to remove haze on galss surfaces . __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

07/08/2013, 08:18 AM	#5
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	When dosing lanthanum chloride there are two things to manage to limit post filtration precipitant or free lanthanum getting into the tank ,as I see it: One ,the lanthanumum chloride dosed needs exposure to a sufficient volume of water containing enough PO4 and /or carbonate to use up the free lanthanum upstream from the filter. Two, adequate filtration downstream to remove the precipitant. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

07/08/2013, 02:33 PM	#7
arkaeus Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 156	Thank you everyone, for the replies and good info. Please note.. Filtering out the lanthanum is not the issue here. I have no side effects in my sump or MT from dosing. The dual 10micron filter socks have no precipitate whatsoever. I think the tightly packed filter floss is doing the job, and if it doesn't then I will add a sand filter after the filter floss. The lowest I can get my Phos is .06 with my hanna meter. I understand it filters out less Phos at lower levels. I was just hoping someone would know if it picks Alk over Phos to bond too. Should I dose Alk, wait so many hours, and then dose LaCl? or can I dose LaCl and dose Soda Ash at the same time to keep Alk stable with the same results. I have the SeaKlear bottle that comes diluted from the factory not the commercial strength. I had to hit at least 20ml to even notice a dent in my Phos levels. I would say I'm more dosing every other day. My real goal was .03 phos before I backed off and changed my GFO out to keep it around these ranges. Before I was dosing LaCl I was getting .10-.18 Phos and exhausting GFO extremely quick. __________________ Live Cam Feed http://m.ustream.tv/channel/codysreef Current Tank Info: 250 gallon (LPS,Softie)

07/08/2013, 12:15 AM	#2
Dave & Monica Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Aurora, CO Posts: 1,255	For what it's worth, I don't think you'll be bonding PO4 while dosing alk, but it does prevent the drop. The LC is what's bonding. I'll bet you'll soon get sick of changing out the floss every few days. I still use the 5 micron sock from time to time but haven't in many months. For me I've been using bio pellets with great results lately. Good luck.

07/08/2013, 11:08 AM	#6
JSimpson Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Humble, Texas Posts: 199	Thanks for the information. I've been dosing LC into my 90 gallon as well, diluting 1.0ml LC into 1/2 gallon of water, and dripping slowly over four to six hours into the overflow which feeds a 10micron sock. Your dose seems pretty high @ 30ml / day, but then again maybe my dose is really low? I've seen no ill effects on livestock, and have my phosphates down around .03-.04 ppm using the Hanna ULR checker. I've been dosng twice a week for the past few weeks to try to establish a maintenance dosing level appropriate for my tank, and so far the levels are relatively constant as far as I can tell. I'm also not sure about the consistency of the Hanna checker (or myself, more likely) at levels below 0.05ppm as that is getting down pretty low in the range of the meter.

07/08/2013, 08:15 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,473	You might be seeing some accuracy issues with the meter. I'd expect that the lanthanum chloride would lower the phosphate level better than that, if enough were dosed. It'd take a lot of lanthanum chloride to precipitate much alkalinity, I think. I'll try to go over the numbers. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

07/09/2013, 03:33 PM	#9
arkaeus Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 156	I have new powder coming in in a few days. I will retest. Somehow last night after dosing LaCl the meter is saying my phos is 1st @.36 then tested again @.34 With these numbers Im thinking something is wrong with my meter as every other time its always .10-.08-.06.... I have never had a reading of phos this high. New reagents should be in Wend. JonathaN, if you have time, please dont forget to go over the numbers =) __________________ Live Cam Feed http://m.ustream.tv/channel/codysreef Current Tank Info: 250 gallon (LPS,Softie)

07/18/2013, 10:48 AM	#10
insomniac2k2 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: concord Posts: 1,280	I'm not quite sure why no one has mention that your dosage rate is insanely high. If I'm reading what you stated correctly, you are dosing 30ml of straight, undiluted LaCl3 a day?! Something is very wrong with your readings. I'm very surprised that everything in your tank hasn't died at this dosage rate. There is no way that you can keep that much LC contained in your filtration. Your tank is saturated with this stuff atm. Not picking on you, just brain dumping. I built my reactor setup quite some time ago now, and have experienced no ill effects. My dilution rate is based on SeaKlear CR 20ml to 1g of RODI. I dose somewhere near 3.5ML a n hour of this diluted mixture 24/7. My phos drop rate is about .01 every few days. You can search my threads if your interested in using my setup as reference.

07/18/2013, 12:46 PM	#11
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	30 ml of LC per half day for 250 gallons seems very high . __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.