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Old 05/15/2014, 07:50 PM   #76
Michael Hoaster
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Price of Success?

I'm running into a bit of a hold-up to this project. Me.

I'm having a hard time taking the next step - breaking down my heavily planted freshwater tank. It would be easier if I could just add a new tank, but my wife has me on a strict one-tank-only deal. It's a fair deal.

It's tough uprooting happy plants! I need to so I can start making the mods on my tank. Got to install my coast2coast overflow, set up the sump, and the fuge and install the new plumbing.

The fake mangrove root is just about done.

Can't start the fake mudbank until I've done the overflow, since they'll be integrated.

Gotta take that next step…


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Old 05/22/2014, 09:19 PM   #77
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How's it going?


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Old 05/22/2014, 09:52 PM   #78
Michael Hoaster
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It's going well, thanks. if a little slowly. I've made the leap and pulled the plants, just waiting to hook up with my LFS owner to finish the deal.

I've secured salt mix and 80 pounds of very fine oolite sand. Next step is to install overflow, sump, refugium and plumbing. Plus I have reconfigure my closed loop plumbing as well. I've got a lot of work to do!


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Old 06/03/2014, 05:55 PM   #79
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Sounds like it's going OK.Rounding everything up for a project is usually the slowest part for Me.

I went too Jackson City,Tenn. a couple of weeks ago for a Petsmart install and found some glutamic acid,but the jar was to big to get into My carry-on bag for the flight home.
So today I was headed over too Petsmart on the east side of Wichita for some repairs and found a Vitiman Shoppe that had some.
I bought a bottle and put one 500mg tablet in the grass bed next to the glass so I could watch it.So we'll see what happens.


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Old 06/03/2014, 11:01 PM   #80
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Yes it is taking a while. I try to move forward, if only a little, everyday.

Tank's empty and I think my overflow is ready for install. I need to have it in place, so I can start building the fake mudbank. Plus there's the rest of the plumbing. I thought I had settled on a configuration, but now I'm reconsidering.

Took the liberty of temporarily installing the fake mangrove root, just to see how it looked in the tank. Not bad. Maybe a little larger than it needs to be, but can I work with it. In my head, the final product looks spectacular!

Glad you found the glutamic acid. Cool idea inserting it right by the glass. I look forward to hearing your results.


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Old 07/01/2014, 06:45 PM   #81
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pics of the finished mangrove roots??


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Old 07/02/2014, 07:27 PM   #82
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Thanks for your interest, dingodan87. I've still got to seal them, then I'll post pics. Have you seen the mangrove root thread? Here it is:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2393807


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Old 08/29/2014, 12:09 AM   #83
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Update on progress

Well this is taking awhile…

So, the fake mangrove root is done. It looks pretty good! But it''s kinda big and I'm getting a "War of the Words" vibe from it. Most important of course is it's function in the tank-so we'll see.

The fake mudbank came out rather ugly. Too wrinkley and shiney. But I have a plan to sand it down with a finishing sander. So I should have the control I need to get the look I want. So that's the plan.

For my next project on this wild ride, I'm considering building a berm with concrete and coral rocks. I need a deep sand bead for the seagrasses, but I want it shallow around the fake root. A berm would help. Yay, another project!

I really look forward to posting about my plants and my fish! Just getting the tank ready has been a struggle and there's still so much to do. But I am trying to enjoy all phases of this new microcosm I am about to bring about. It's going to be sweet!


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Old 08/29/2014, 09:09 AM   #84
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My fake threads

If you're interested, you can find my threads on the fake mangrove root:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2393807

And fake mudbank:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2403722

Basically, these projects were undertaken to hide stuff. I want no plumbing or gizmos visible in this tank. The mangrove root hides a powerhead, the mud bank hides behind-the-tank plumbing. As I got into each project, I realized I could get other benefits from them. For instance, I've hidden in the foam wall a bunch of plastic bottles to provide caves for my fish. There will be little to no live rock in the tank, so I knew I needed to provide shelter for my fishies to feel safe and secure. The root looks cool and provides additional 'structure' for the fish to hang around.

I hope these threads inspire others to try to 'do-it-yourself', to make their own solutions to problems that might crop up when setting up an aquarium.

Enjoy!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Old 09/01/2014, 10:34 AM   #85
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Looks nice! It'll be great to see the final product. Also, I found this really great video of a mangrove forest/reef- though I am not sure about where this video was taken (it looks a little more Indonesian). Still, it is good inspiration for any mangrove tank. The URL is: vimeo.com/8666506.


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Old 09/01/2014, 11:17 AM   #86
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Thanks, JLynn! That video is awesome! Even the soundtrack was good (and not annoying!) I was trying to ID the region by the fish- Batfish and Archers, etc. Then I saw on the credits-it was Indonesia.

Kind of similar to what I'm going for with this tank, with the exception of seagrass dominating, rather than corals. I'll eventually add some (caribbean) gorgonia, anemones and sponges, but this is really a Colorado Grass, er, I mean Caribbean Seagrass tank!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Old 09/03/2014, 03:09 PM   #87
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You're welcome! I found it inspiring as well. A mangrove tank definitely won its place on my list of future tanks! Though when I do it I won't do as strict of a biotope as you are; most likely I will do anything that can be found in (tropical) mangrove reefs at any time in any place. That way I will have more coral options than just photosynthetic gorgonians. More fish options, too.

If only we could get Caribbean stony corals in the hobby. I would die for a frag of Madracis mirabilis! It would be so awesome to make a tank featuring a monotypic reef of that SPS and schools of beautiful Caribbean fish! I wonder what colors it would be in better water conditions.


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Old 09/03/2014, 03:10 PM   #88
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Last edited by JLynn; 09/03/2014 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Accidental double-post! Can someone delete this?
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Old 09/03/2014, 03:35 PM   #89
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Yes, I've definitely limited my choices! I'm originally from Florida, so the Caribbean is like my 'home' sea. Ironically as I compile my fish list, I find I've never kept any of these fish before! For this particular tank, I have no interest in corals. I'm most excited about keeping seagrass and some macro algae. It's sort of like a 240 gallon display refugium. I'm trying to combine what I've learned from reef keeping and FW plant keeping, to make a tank that's fun to watch and easy to maintain.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass-Mangrove Mudbank Lagoon
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Old 09/04/2014, 02:05 PM   #90
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Talking about limiting my choices got me to thinking that maybe, now is a good time to discuss the fish I'm considering.

If you've seen my fake mudbank thread, you may have seen my first choice is the Royal Gramma. A perennial favorite in the hobby, I've actually never kept one! But I plan to house much more than one. I'm going to attempt a peaceful, but large 'harem' of around seven, with one large (male) specimen and the rest smaller females. These fish start life as females, the largest of which will turn into a male if "there's not a man around". One of the main reasons I made the fake wall was to hide plastic bottles for 'gramma caves'. They like vertical hardscape and they need plenty of hiding places. With little to no liverock in the tank, I felt it was required.

Another fish I may try the harem trick with is the Cherub Angelfish. I know they can be terrors, and even considering more than one is insane, but they have been bred in captivity this way. Maybe four total fish. Hopefully, they'll direct their attention towards each other more than their tankmates. Anyone else tried this? I'd love to hear from you. Of course, these fish will be one of the last fish I add.

I may add another Angelfish. Probably a Rock Beauty. I know! These fish are excellent at dying. But I wouldn't even try, if I hadn't had some success with other difficult fish, like the Moorish Idol. I think the key to keeping these fish alive and fat, is "Angelfish Formula" frozen food, with marine sponge one of the ingredients. Come to think of it, that may have been the key with the Moorish Idol as well…

I'd love to have a Queen Angel, but I just don't think my tank is long enough. It's five and a half feet long. The queen needs at least six, and eight would be better. As far as looks go, it's my favorite fish. Maybe the next tank!

There are three Caribbean Butterflyfish I'd like to keep. The Foureye, Banded and Reef. Unfortunately, I also want to keep anemones, so unless someone can vouch for any of these as not eating anemones, I probably won't. We'll see though!

The Chalk Bass is another small fish I can keep in a school (around 6). They're kind of 'jewel' fish, like the grammas. They seem kind of boring in the small dealer's tank, Like the Cardinalfish, they just kind of hang around. I wonder if they'd move around more in a larger tank.

I'll get a Caribbean Algae Blenny, if I can find one that's not nippy. Any recommendations?

Also, the Atlantic Blue Tang. I'd love to get a small, yellow phase specimen, and watch it change over time. Can't do more than one of these, unfortunately. It'd be cool to also get a Doctorfish (surgeon), but The Blue Tang wouldn't tolerate it. Maybe if I got two small specimens, I could add them simultaneously. But if I have to choose, the blue wins.

A school of Chromis, any Caribbean species. I like the 'sunshine'. The blues are very nice too. It'll probably come down to what I can find the best deal on.

I may sneak another Basslet or two in, like the Black Cap or Swiss Guard. These are deeper water fish, so I'll have to see if I develop some good shady spots for them to feel comfy. If the plants do well, it should.

Probably the trickiest pick would be Lookdowns. I want small ones, maybe four. One of the reasons for attempting to get a good 'gyre' flow around the tank is for these guys. I know my tank is maybe a little small for them, but I'm hoping with strong waterflow, they'll be busy and happy. I may also do a large school of feeder shrimp to keep them from eating the other fish! I was very much inspired by the video of the gyre/lookdown tank in Atlanta. Google it! But if they don't work out, they're gone.

I may do some Neon Gobies. Unfortunately, these fish prey on zooplankton, besides the cleaning service. Maybe if I get a huge population of plankton first. Come to think of it, maybe all of these fish eat plankton! Refugium!

I'd love some Yellowhead Jawfish too, but they're too timid, I think.

Well that's about it! I think it could be awesome!

I'd love to hear from anyone who's kept any of these fish.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass-Mangrove Mudbank Lagoon

Last edited by Michael Hoaster; 09/04/2014 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 09/04/2014, 11:08 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
Talking about limiting my choices got me to thinking that maybe, now is a good time to discuss the fish I'm considering.

If you've seen my fake mudbank thread, you may have seen my first choice is the Royal Gramma. A perennial favorite in the hobby, I've actually never kept one! But I plan to house much more than one. I'm going to attempt a peaceful, but large 'harem' of around seven, with one large (male) specimen and the rest smaller females. These fish start life as females, the largest of which will turn into a male if "there's not a man around". One of the main reasons I made the fake wall was to hide plastic bottles for 'gramma caves'. They like vertical hardscape and they need plenty of hiding places. With little to no liverock in the tank, I felt it was required.

Another fish I may try the harem trick with is the Cherub Angelfish. I know they can be terrors, and even considering more than one is insane, but they have been bred in captivity this way. Maybe four total fish. Hopefully, they'll direct their attention towards each other more than their tankmates. Anyone else tried this? I'd love to hear from you. Of course, these fish will be one of the last fish I add.

I may add another Angelfish. Probably a Rock Beauty. I know! These fish are excellent at dying. But I wouldn't even try, if I hadn't had some success with other difficult fish, like the Moorish Idol. I think the key to keeping these fish alive and fat, is "Angelfish Formula" frozen food, with marine sponge one of the ingredients. Come to think of it, that may have been the key with the Moorish Idol as well…

I'd love to have a Queen Angel, but I just don't think my tank is long enough. It's five and a half feet long. The queen needs at least six, and eight would be better. As far as looks go, it's my favorite fish. Maybe the next tank!

There are three Caribbean Butterflyfish I'd like to keep. The Foureye, Banded and Reef. Unfortunately, I also want to keep anemones, so unless someone can vouch for any of these as not eating anemones, I probably won't. We'll see though!

The Chalk Bass is another small fish I can keep in a school (around 6). They're kind of 'jewel' fish, like the grammas. They seem kind of boring in the small dealer's tank, Like the Cardinalfish, they just kind of hang around. I wonder if they'd move around more in a larger tank.

I'll get a Caribbean Algae Blenny, if I can find one that's not nippy. Any recommendations?

Also, the Atlantic Blue Tang. I'd love to get a small, yellow phase specimen, and watch it change over time. Can't do more than one of these, unfortunately. It'd be cool to also get a Doctorfish (surgeon), but The Blue Tang wouldn't tolerate it. Maybe if I got two small specimens, I could add them simultaneously. But if I have to choose, the blue wins.

A school of Chromis, any Caribbean species. I like the 'sunshine'. The blues are very nice too. It'll probably come down to what I can find the best deal on.

I may sneak another Basslet or two in, like the Black Cap or Swiss Guard. These are deeper water fish, so I'll have to see if I develop some good shady spots for them to feel comfy. If the plants do well, it should.

Probably the trickiest pick would be Lookdowns. I want small ones, maybe four. One of the reasons for attempting to get a good 'gyre' flow around the tank is for these guys. I know my tank is maybe a little small for them, but I'm hoping with strong waterflow, they'll be busy and happy. I may also do a large school of feeder shrimp to keep them from eating the other fish! I was very much inspired by the video of the gyre/lookdown tank in Atlanta. Google it! But if they don't work out, they're gone.

I may do some Neon Gobies. Unfortunately, these fish prey on zooplankton, besides the cleaning service. Maybe if I get a huge population of plankton first. Come to think of it, maybe all of these fish eat plankton! Refugium!

I'd love some Yellowhead Jawfish too, but they're too timid, I think.

Well that's about it! I think it could be awesome!

I'd love to hear from anyone who's kept any of these fish.
Well, I haven't kept them myself, but I have done research on several of them. First of all, while I agree that lookdowns are very interesting fish, I am concerned about the size of the tank. While reading the Advanced Aquarist article, "Reconsidering the Lookdown", I noticed that they mentioned that seagrass should be kept to the side of the tank in order to give the lookdowns room to swim above it. Now, I don't know about your tank specifically, but the standard height for a 240g is 24". If you account for the DSB, you have more like 16" or 18". That would not be a problem, except that you intend to keep one of the longer species of seagrass, which typically end up at 18" tall. Of course, I assume you will keep it trimmed down somewhat, in order to let us see the lovely mangrove roots in the back corner, but it is something you need to consider carefully, if you haven't already.

Also, the according to Jay Hemdal's book, "Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques: Guide to Successful Professional Marine Aquarium systems", while small groups of juvenile lookdowns will do fine in anything larger than 125g, small groups of adults need at least 900g ! While I generally feel that minimum tank size recommendations can be safely bent, there is a very large difference between a 900g and a 240g; I think lookdowns are probably similar to wrasse and Moorish Idols in that they need a whole lot more swimming space than their size would suggest. Point being that it would be very unwise to get lookdowns, unless you are planning on adding a 900g FOWLR to your collection sometime soon .

And you mentioned that you were trying to set up a gyre; have you checked out the Maxspect Gyre? It sounds perfect for this kind of tank!

Anyways, about the angelfishes... Well, I agree that a harem of angelfish would be fantastic! While I was researching angelfish recently, I heard several people mention that even when they found a group of dwarf angelfish that would get along, the male angelfish would always end up changing back into females. Nothing has been proven, per say, but the hypothesis is that it was due to the presence of much larger angelfish and tangs within the tank. That may have nothing to do with it at all, but its a thought. There was a thread about keeping fish in groups a while back in the fish forum that you might want to check out. Or just post a question there about whether or not anyone has kept a harem of dwarf angelfish in a community tank and how that worked out for them.

Other than that, I really like your fish choices! Especially the chalk basses- I have always felt that they were vastly under-appreciated. Have you taken a look at the cardinalfish that live in the Caribbean? In a tank this size, you could probably get a nice big school of them going.


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Old 09/05/2014, 07:09 AM   #92
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Ok, so as for blennies, I did a cursory search on Live Aquaria and only came up with the Horned Blenny (Hypsoblennius exstochilus). I am sure there are more; I'll look into it later today. You might consider Scooter Blennies as well (not sure if they are Caribbean or not, though...). Also, have you thought about maybe doing a frogfish? They are typically found in areas with algae and seagrass, and they are really cool looking creatures. Their camouflage is fantastic. I don't know how they do in a community tank, but in a tank that large it might not be a problem.


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Old 09/05/2014, 09:41 AM   #93
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Thank you, JLynn, for your input!

On the Lookdowns, I agree my tank is maybe too small. It is 30 inches tall and 5 and a half feet long. The DSB will be confined to the left two thirds of the tank with the berm/planter I am building for it, so no seagrass in the right third around the fake root. The reason I thought I might get away with it is the gyre flow. Did you look at the Lookdown/gyre tank in Atlanta I mentioned? Those fish were basically swimming in place.

My thinking is that having a strong gyre flow around the tank, in effect, makes it larger. Think treadmill, hamster wheel or lap pool. To swim from one end of the tank to the other against a strong current is like swimming a much greater distance. So that's why I'm thinking I might be able to pull it off. So I may still try it with small fish, and see how they do as they get bigger. As I said, I have no problem removing fish if they aren't 'working'.

That Maxspect Gyre pump is cool! I may get one to supplement what I have already.

I had not seen that about the male Angelfish reverting to female. Was it the Cherub Angelfish? Well, if that happens in my tank, it's probably OK. It's the males that are the problem. I'd be more concerned if they all decided to turn into males! So, I'm not necessarily trying to breed them, as much as observe natural behaviors, and keep more than one peacefully in my tank.

Yes, I've considered the Cardinalfish. The great thing about them is their willingness to breed in captivity. On the other hand, to me this fish is boring. They barely move! Maybe with my large(ish) tank and the gyre flow, they'd be more interesting. A school might be cool though.

I've looked at Horned, Red-Lipped and Eyelash Blennies, which are all Caribbean species. I think one of these will work. I just have to dig a little deeper to find a winner. This would be a champion microalgae grazer, that doesn't pick on other fish. These fish tend to get added early to help the cleanup crew. Maybe I could hold off until later to add one, so my other small, timid species could get established first.

I think there are Caribbean Scooter Blennies (Dragonets). Not as colorful as psychedelic ones, but they are interesting little guys. The main concern with these fish is making sure they don't starve. Since I plan to build a large and diverse population of plankton, it could work. The tricky part will be maintaining population levels to support all these little fish. I do plan to have a refugium to help in that regard.

I'd love to do a Frogfish or other stealthy predator, but I'm afraid he'd eat all my small fish. As I said with the Lookdaowns, maybe a breeding school of feeder shrimp would help. I'll think about it.


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Old 09/05/2014, 10:31 AM   #94
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This thread inspires me.


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Old 09/05/2014, 11:41 AM   #95
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Cool concept. Your fish choice seems cool


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Old 09/05/2014, 12:32 PM   #96
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Thanks, nawilson89 and Dr.Brain Coral, for following!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass-Mangrove Mudbank Lagoon
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Old 09/05/2014, 02:47 PM   #97
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Thank you, JLynn, for your input!

On the Lookdowns, I agree my tank is maybe too small. It is 30 inches tall and 5 and a half feet long. The DSB will be confined to the left two thirds of the tank with the berm/planter I am building for it, so no seagrass in the right third around the fake root. The reason I thought I might get away with it is the gyre flow. Did you look at the Lookdown/gyre tank in Atlanta I mentioned? Those fish were basically swimming in place.

My thinking is that having a strong gyre flow around the tank, in effect, makes it larger. Think treadmill, hamster wheel or lap pool. To swim from one end of the tank to the other against a strong current is like swimming a much greater distance. So that's why I'm thinking I might be able to pull it off. So I may still try it with small fish, and see how they do as they get bigger. As I said, I have no problem removing fish if they aren't 'working'.

That Maxspect Gyre pump is cool! I may get one to supplement what I have already.

I had not seen that about the male Angelfish reverting to female. Was it the Cherub Angelfish? Well, if that happens in my tank, it's probably OK. It's the males that are the problem. I'd be more concerned if they all decided to turn into males! So, I'm not necessarily trying to breed them, as much as observe natural behaviors, and keep more than one peacefully in my tank.

Yes, I've considered the Cardinalfish. The great thing about them is their willingness to breed in captivity. On the other hand, to me this fish is boring. They barely move! Maybe with my large(ish) tank and the gyre flow, they'd be more interesting. A school might be cool though.

I've looked at Horned, Red-Lipped and Eyelash Blennies, which are all Caribbean species. I think one of these will work. I just have to dig a little deeper to find a winner. This would be a champion microalgae grazer, that doesn't pick on other fish. These fish tend to get added early to help the cleanup crew. Maybe I could hold off until later to add one, so my other small, timid species could get established first.

I think there are Caribbean Scooter Blennies (Dragonets). Not as colorful as psychedelic ones, but they are interesting little guys. The main concern with these fish is making sure they don't starve. Since I plan to build a large and diverse population of plankton, it could work. The tricky part will be maintaining population levels to support all these little fish. I do plan to have a refugium to help in that regard.

I'd love to do a Frogfish or other stealthy predator, but I'm afraid he'd eat all my small fish. As I said with the Lookdaowns, maybe a breeding school of feeder shrimp would help. I'll think about it.
As I matter of fact, I seem to have missed your reference to the Atlantan tank. But that is an interesting theory... it seems plausible that a strong gyre could create a sort of treadmill for the fish. In that case, go ahead and give it a shot!

However, I think you should wait until the lookdowns get larger to amp up the gyre action, because if you had such a strong current from the beginning, it would move the sand around and make it harder for the seagrass to take root. If you wait, on the other hand, you would give the seagrass time to develop a stronger root system and grow a bit so that the current would not pose a threat to them and their roots would halt sand erosion. I would be worried that perhaps some of the other, smaller fish would have trouble swimming in such a strong current, but if the seagrass had grown to cover the part of the tank you planted it in, those fish would probably be ok if they swam in the seagrass, where they would be shielded from the current.

As for the angelfish, it was not just one particular species, but rather a note that no one seemed to have been able to maintain a harem of ANY angelfish species in a community tank (in the long term, at least). Still, if you are fine with a sorority, that's not a problem.


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Old 09/05/2014, 05:11 PM   #98
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Those are some good points, JLynn.

You're right, it is just a theory at this point, that a gyre flow effectively enlarges a tank. I'm anxious to test it, and as you said, I'll "give it a shot".

I have considered the issue of too much current for both the seagrass and the fish. I will be able to start with less, and gradually increase it over time. I plan to plant the grass more towards the middle of the tank and not in direct path of the flow. Also, the pump outputs driving the gyre flow will be in the top two-thirds of the tank, so there should be less current towards the bottom. I'd be amazed if I actually had too much current for the fish. I saw a video taken in a caribbean seagrass bed. There were seahorses in there going about their normal activity, while the current was obviously raging. The grass was moving very erratically but the little horses just did their thing! I'll definitely keep an eye on everyone and adjust the current as needed.

I'll try and track down that info on the angelfish, or if you remember where you found it, that would be great. A 'sorority' would be fine. Love that term by the way! My main concern is that they coexist peacefully with each other and their tankmates.


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Old 09/05/2014, 07:56 PM   #99
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I thought maybe showing some sketches would be helpful. They're pretty rough, but I think legible.


See how the DSB is a peninsula jutting across the tank, leaving the shallow sand bed in front and right.


This one shows the DSB confined by the berm/planter.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Old 09/05/2014, 11:01 PM   #100
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Those drawings make perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

I remembered that some of those comments were from the "OMG! Look at these hybrid and rare fishes!" thread on the Singapore Reef Club forum. I think they were around the 60-70 page mark, but I could be wrong (it is a 400 page thread, so...). I have only gotten through the first 130 pages thus far, so I can assure you that it is before then.

And it seems I am wrong about that being for dwarf angelfish, as I just came across a thread entitled "dwarf/pygmy angelfish harem formation" here on RC. Perhaps the information from the other thread was outdated. Either way, dwarf angelfish have been kept successfully in harems/sororities (I got the "sorority" thing from the betta fish world, by the way- it seemed appropriate).

I think that as long as the angelfish are young and introduced at the same time, it should be fine. Dwarf angelfish, I gather, aren't the schooling type; each female will stake out her own territory, and the male(s) will visit all of them individually. Your tank should have enough room for this process to go down pretty smoothly, so I wouldn't worry too much.

You certainly seem to have covered all your bases! It is really nice to read build threads where the author did their research. Personally, I think it makes everything at least twice as interesting.


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