reef politics

thenewguy997 · 04/26/2014, 12:11 AM

If a law was made that no organism can be taken from the ocean unless you are a licensed dealer, in which case you may take 2 of one species breed them and release them so that all that is sold is tank bred. Would you support it, why or why not

formsix · 04/26/2014, 10:44 AM

While I would definitely support more stringent guidelines for what can be taken from the ocean (and moreso what can be exported/imported into different countries), there are a few things I don't think would work with your proposal.

First, while it would be AWESOME if all it took to get tank-bred fish were to take two from the ocean and let them have at it, that's just not gonna happen. The reality of breeding is that you're going to loose stock along the way -- possibly quite a bit of stock since we have no clue how to breed most fish in captivity yet. In addition, to have a sustainable healthy breeding program you need to start with more than two individuals. Well, you can START with two, but for the next generation you'll probably want to add another fish for genetic diversity.

Then, when it comes to returning fish to the ocean, that is probably more cruel than it sounds. These fish have now spent a good chunk of time living in a temperature controlled tank with regular feedings and no predators. Releasing them back into the wild is not a good idea. Not to mention what would happen to the wild population if these fish happened to pick up some exotic disease while they were in captivity.

thenewguy997 · 04/26/2014, 01:42 PM

Good points!

Dmorty217 · 04/26/2014, 03:28 PM

Without question I would buy those fish, but as mentioned above that is hard to do and near impossible for most fish and even if it was it would take a lot of resources and $$ Tim buck too that catches the fish and eats what he can't sell to accomplish. Unfortunately most "cool" fish come from far, far away places instead of off the coast of 'Merica of a territory of 'Merica

KafudaFish · 04/26/2014, 03:34 PM

No. Too many other impacts need to be addressed before focusing on this.

Look at the reefs off of the USA and then go look at the reefs off of Cuba.

There are others such as not all species can be captive breed plus what are you doing to do with everyone on this and every other board that sells frags?

Misled · 04/26/2014, 04:09 PM

I agree with Mike!! (Dr. Kafuda if you're nasty). We get better as time goes on, but our hobby has much less impact than say fishing or the environment itself. I also think our hobby has helped people more understand the reefs of our planet.

thenewguy997 · 04/26/2014, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

No. Too many other impacts need to be addressed before focusing on this.

Look at the reefs off of the USA and then go look at the reefs off of Cuba.

There are others such as not all species can be captive breed plus what are you doing to do with everyone on this and every other board that sells frags?

Are the usa's reefs not healthy?

billsreef · 04/27/2014, 08:39 AM

Like other reefs in the world, the US coastal reefs (S. FL and the Keys) are under the pressure of environmental degradation. Coastal pollution, dredging, loss of mangroves, loss of sea grass beds, ocean warming and acidification, fishing pressures, etc. etc. The more developed (i.e. more people and more industry) an area, the more the pressures.

With your aquaculture idea, you should also consider the pressures that aquaculture brings to bear on the environment. High electricity demands, waste water, food for the growing fish....the best foods being based on marine based sources such as crabs, fish, shrimp, krill, etc. that are all wild harvested. Simply put, aquaculture is not the environmental panacea some think, it is simply trading one set of issues for another...while simply allowing some to be ignored.

syrinx · 04/27/2014, 09:44 AM

Good points all around. I will bring up an example of how protecting a species from collection can fail. There was a species of tarantula that we had just started working on breeding. It really was not in the trade and only a few had been imported. Well the spider got CITES and we could not continue the project. However, the habitat was not protected- and thus destroyed by the timber trade. Now a dozen years later, that spider could be common in captivity-but instead it is disappearing with its habitat.

Rbs07fxstc · 04/27/2014, 10:20 AM

We might as well just clone the fish since most can't be captive breed. Don't know if its possible but might be easier & more efficient. Look what breeding has done to the poor clown fish.

thenewguy997 · 04/27/2014, 07:26 PM

hmm, you guys make it hard to seem what is wrong and right...

All i know, is that im not sure reefkeeping will destroy a species but i feel like a few generations from now saltwater tanks may not be possible any more because if we abuse the oceans then restrictions will need to be put in place. Just look at marshall live rock, i was not in the hobby when it was banned.

But i will say that i believe 9 out of 10 aquarists are responsible and truly care for their animals but imagine all the people who keep tanks and do no research and do not appreciate life..

To be honest i think some let me say SOME lfs's are partly responsible because SOME lfs's push to sell even when they know the animal will die or has little chance of long term survival.

billsreef · 04/27/2014, 07:40 PM

The Marshalls are prime example of greater problems. Sure they banned LR collection, but they readily dredge reefs for fill and cement productions. Currently they are dredging a reef to provide the material for a FAA funded airport expansion

HumbleFish · 04/27/2014, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by formsix

First, while it would be AWESOME if all it took to get tank-bred fish were to take two from the ocean and let them have at it, that's just not gonna happen. The reality of breeding is that you're going to loose stock along the way -- possibly quite a bit of stock since we have no clue how to breed most fish in captivity yet. In addition, to have a sustainable healthy breeding program you need to start with more than two individuals. Well, you can START with two, but for the next generation you'll probably want to add another fish for genetic diversity.

When I first started out in this hobby, breeding any s/w fish was considered virtually impossible. And yet, look how far we've come in such little time (especially with propagating corals). It's only because excessive regulations have stayed out of the way of progress. When all the reefs die, the corals in our aquariums will be the only hope to someday replenish & restore them.

thenewguy997 · 04/27/2014, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billsreef

The Marshalls are prime example of greater problems. Sure they banned LR collection, but they readily dredge reefs for fill and cement productions. Currently they are dredging a reef to provide the material for a FAA funded airport expansion

Thats sad..

Keoki18 · 04/28/2014, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenewguy997

hmm, you guys make it hard to seem what is wrong and right...

All i know, is that im not sure reefkeeping will destroy a species but i feel like a few generations from now saltwater tanks may not be possible any more because if we abuse the oceans then restrictions will need to be put in place. Just look at marshall live rock, i was not in the hobby when it was banned.

But i will say that i believe 9 out of 10 aquarists are responsible and truly care for their animals but imagine all the people who keep tanks and do no research and do not appreciate life..

To be honest i think some let me say SOME lfs's are partly responsible because SOME lfs's push to sell even when they know the animal will die or has little chance of long term survival.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't consider 9 out of 10 to be totally responsible. Maybe around 6 (not to dismiss your oppinion in any way). Many aquarists have good intentions, yet lack the proper knowledge to "be" responsible. I have worked in retail for many years and know we still have a long way to go in a very short amount of time. This is why communities such as this site are really improving our hobby's future!

I believe the most important role we can play in concervation is sustainable research and making educated purchases. A major problem in the past years has been the idea of "Ill try this animal". This has led to countless deaths of ornimental species. Wise purchasing is the best way to be responsible. LFS do have a hand to play, but in the end, it comes down to the buyer.

04/26/2014, 12:11 AM	#1
thenewguy997 Moved On Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 618	reef politics If a law was made that no organism can be taken from the ocean unless you are a licensed dealer, in which case you may take 2 of one species breed them and release them so that all that is sold is tank bred. Would you support it, why or why not

04/26/2014, 03:28 PM	#4
Dmorty217 Saltwater Addict Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Vandalia OHIO Posts: 11,624	Without question I would buy those fish, but as mentioned above that is hard to do and near impossible for most fish and even if it was it would take a lot of resources and $$ Tim buck too that catches the fish and eats what he can't sell to accomplish. Unfortunately most "cool" fish come from far, far away places instead of off the coast of 'Merica of a territory of 'Merica __________________ Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs Current Tank Info: 625g, 220g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 3 MP60s, MP40. Several QTs

04/26/2014, 04:09 PM	#6
Misled RC Mod Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Posts: 11,440 Blog Entries: 11	I agree with Mike!! (Dr. Kafuda if you're nasty). We get better as time goes on, but our hobby has much less impact than say fishing or the environment itself. I also think our hobby has helped people more understand the reefs of our planet. __________________ Jesse I'm not saying I'm Batman. I'm just saying nobody has ever seen me and Batman in a room together.

04/27/2014, 08:39 AM	#8
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami Posts: 36,538	Like other reefs in the world, the US coastal reefs (S. FL and the Keys) are under the pressure of environmental degradation. Coastal pollution, dredging, loss of mangroves, loss of sea grass beds, ocean warming and acidification, fishing pressures, etc. etc. The more developed (i.e. more people and more industry) an area, the more the pressures. With your aquaculture idea, you should also consider the pressures that aquaculture brings to bear on the environment. High electricity demands, waste water, food for the growing fish....the best foods being based on marine based sources such as crabs, fish, shrimp, krill, etc. that are all wild harvested. Simply put, aquaculture is not the environmental panacea some think, it is simply trading one set of issues for another...while simply allowing some to be ignored. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.

04/27/2014, 09:44 AM	#9
syrinx Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: champaign Posts: 3,160	Good points all around. I will bring up an example of how protecting a species from collection can fail. There was a species of tarantula that we had just started working on breeding. It really was not in the trade and only a few had been imported. Well the spider got CITES and we could not continue the project. However, the habitat was not protected- and thus destroyed by the timber trade. Now a dozen years later, that spider could be common in captivity-but instead it is disappearing with its habitat. __________________ My views are based on 49years as an aquarist, 25 years as a pro reef consultant, 10 years of owning a LFS, and the results of thousands of customers tanks. But I am always learning.

04/26/2014, 10:44 AM	#2
formsix Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 341	While I would definitely support more stringent guidelines for what can be taken from the ocean (and moreso what can be exported/imported into different countries), there are a few things I don't think would work with your proposal. First, while it would be AWESOME if all it took to get tank-bred fish were to take two from the ocean and let them have at it, that's just not gonna happen. The reality of breeding is that you're going to loose stock along the way -- possibly quite a bit of stock since we have no clue how to breed most fish in captivity yet. In addition, to have a sustainable healthy breeding program you need to start with more than two individuals. Well, you can START with two, but for the next generation you'll probably want to add another fish for genetic diversity. Then, when it comes to returning fish to the ocean, that is probably more cruel than it sounds. These fish have now spent a good chunk of time living in a temperature controlled tank with regular feedings and no predators. Releasing them back into the wild is not a good idea. Not to mention what would happen to the wild population if these fish happened to pick up some exotic disease while they were in captivity.

04/26/2014, 01:42 PM	#3
thenewguy997 Moved On Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 618	Good points!

04/26/2014, 03:34 PM	#5
KafudaFish Cyprinius carpio Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 4,496	No. Too many other impacts need to be addressed before focusing on this. Look at the reefs off of the USA and then go look at the reefs off of Cuba. There are others such as not all species can be captive breed plus what are you doing to do with everyone on this and every other board that sells frags?

04/27/2014, 10:20 AM	#10
Rbs07fxstc Registered Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Bartow, Fla Posts: 425	We might as well just clone the fish since most can't be captive breed. Don't know if its possible but might be easier & more efficient. Look what breeding has done to the poor clown fish.

04/27/2014, 07:26 PM	#11
thenewguy997 Moved On Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 618	hmm, you guys make it hard to seem what is wrong and right... All i know, is that im not sure reefkeeping will destroy a species but i feel like a few generations from now saltwater tanks may not be possible any more because if we abuse the oceans then restrictions will need to be put in place. Just look at marshall live rock, i was not in the hobby when it was banned. But i will say that i believe 9 out of 10 aquarists are responsible and truly care for their animals but imagine all the people who keep tanks and do no research and do not appreciate life.. To be honest i think some let me say SOME lfs's are partly responsible because SOME lfs's push to sell even when they know the animal will die or has little chance of long term survival.

04/27/2014, 07:40 PM	#12
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami Posts: 36,538	The Marshalls are prime example of greater problems. Sure they banned LR collection, but they readily dredge reefs for fill and cement productions. Currently they are dredging a reef to provide the material for a FAA funded airport expansion __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.