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Old 08/06/2014, 05:17 AM   #1
droog
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Setting up a gyre flow with 2x MP40s

Hi,

I made this a separate thread from the previous one for clarity. I'm interested in trying to create a Gyre flow within my 120g (regular dimensions) tank.

Rockwork is essentially two islands, with open space along the top, quite a lot of open space at the front and a little space at the back (one fist size rock just touches the back wall).

What would the best setting be to create a gyre flow in this tank?

- Mount one pump to the left and rear, the other right and front at the same height?

- Lets say I'm using long pulse mode for the sake of argument. Should the pumps be in SYNC or ANTI-SYNC mode to get gyre flow. I could image arguments both ways

- Now lets say I'm using ReefCrest mode. Sync or Anti-sync?

I think my confusion stems from the terminology Sync/Anti-Sync. Does anti-sync mean the pump is running in reverse, or simply that as one speeds up the other slows down and vice versa? If its the latter case, "out of phase" seems a better description than "anti-sync"

-droog


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Old 08/06/2014, 08:09 AM   #2
Mark426
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I have my tank set up in my version of gyre flow. Similar rockwork as you have. What I did was to have both MP's on opposite side walls as close to the back as possible. I only have one MP running at a time (no anti-sync, etc). The flow runs clockwise for 2 hours then reverses and runs counter clockwise. I decided that running the flow in one direction all the time may not be as healthy for the corals and ditritus finds places to hide. All is controlled by an Apex. My corals seem very happy with this arrangement. Running in the reef crest mode.

Edit: You cant reverse the MP, anti-sync = one fast and one slow. Sync = both do the same. Second, in my tank if both MP are running even with the second one at its lowest speed it disrupts the gyre flow too much if you want to alternate the flow direction like I do. Just mount your pumps on opposite ends and try all the ways that work best for you. Its amazing the flow that gets going, my tank looks like a toilet flushing .



Last edited by Mark426; 08/06/2014 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 08/06/2014, 09:09 AM   #3
droog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark426 View Post
I have my tank set up in my version of gyre flow. Similar rockwork as you have. What I did was to have both MP's on opposite side walls as close to the back as possible. I only have one MP running at a time (no anti-sync, etc). The flow runs clockwise for 2 hours then reverses and runs counter clockwise. I decided that running the flow in one direction all the time may not be as healthy for the corals and ditritus finds places to hide. All is controlled by an Apex. My corals seem very happy with this arrangement. Running in the reef crest mode.

Edit: You cant reverse the MP, anti-sync = one fast and one slow. Sync = both do the same. Second, in my tank if both MP are running even with the second one at its lowest speed it disrupts the gyre flow too much if you want to alternate the flow direction like I do. Just mount your pumps on opposite ends and try all the ways that work best for you. Its amazing the flow that gets going, my tank looks like a toilet flushing .
Cool idea! Thanks for posting. I have an Apex just installed, so I can try this manually and if it works automate something similar. How big is the tank, with one running at a time I guess you are at ~70-80% power?

From memory, diving atolls in the Maldives was like that. Reef crest with random surges clockwise early in the day, then the current would switch. Maybe you're onto something...

-droog


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Old 08/06/2014, 09:39 AM   #4
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My tank is a "long-n-low" strange dimensioned 40L x 18W x 16H. What fit in the perfect spot in my home office. Reef crest with a max of 75%.


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Old 08/06/2014, 11:47 AM   #5
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This is the first I've heard of gyre flow, from the little I've read, it seems there could be a lot of potential for healthier aquariums using this type of flow.

It would be wonderful if Ecotech provided a Vortech gyre template as an option in ESL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark426 View Post
I have my tank set up in my version of gyre flow. Similar rockwork as you have. What I did was to have both MP's on opposite side walls as close to the back as possible. I only have one MP running at a time (no anti-sync, etc). The flow runs clockwise for 2 hours then reverses and runs counter clockwise. I decided that running the flow in one direction all the time may not be as healthy for the corals and ditritus finds places to hide. All is controlled by an Apex. My corals seem very happy with this arrangement. Running in the reef crest mode.

Edit: You cant reverse the MP, anti-sync = one fast and one slow. Sync = both do the same. Second, in my tank if both MP are running even with the second one at its lowest speed it disrupts the gyre flow too much if you want to alternate the flow direction like I do. Just mount your pumps on opposite ends and try all the ways that work best for you. Its amazing the flow that gets going, my tank looks like a toilet flushing .
Since only one pump is running at a time, would larger pumps need to be utilized? Replace MP40 with MP60 for example?


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Old 08/06/2014, 01:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Tradewinds View Post
Since only one pump is running at a time, would larger pumps need to be utilized? Replace MP40 with MP60 for example?
Well... I think it depends on your tanks dimensions, inhabitants and what max pump speed you can live with (all of them seem to get too noisy at max speed). In a way you can get away with a MP that might be slightly too small for your tank because you kinda get the waters momentum working in your favor...if that makes any sense. Thankfully, EcoTech has included a pretty good flow calculator on their site that might answer your question.

The main consideration is your aquascaping needs to be arranged in a way for it to be effective. Like central islands with plenty space in front, back and the ends. Using the standard rocks piled against the back wall and its not a useful flow pattern at all...IMHO.



Last edited by Mark426; 08/06/2014 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 08/06/2014, 02:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark426 View Post
Well... I think it depends on your tanks dimensions, inhabitants and what max pump speed you can live with (all of them seem to get too noisy at max speed). In a way you can get away with a MP that might be slightly too small for your tank because you kinda get the waters momentum working in your favor...if that makes any sense. Thankfully, EcoTech has included a pretty good flow calculator on their site that might answer your question.

The main consideration is your aquascaping needs to be arranged in a way for it to be effective. Like central islands with plenty space in front, back and the ends. Using the standard rocks piled against the back wall and its not a useful flow pattern at all...IMHO.
Here are a few tank shots, do you think the rock work is too crowded to utilize a gyre flow?

Left End:


Center:


Right End:


Thanks.


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Old 08/06/2014, 03:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark426 View Post
I have my tank set up in my version of gyre flow. Similar rockwork as you have. What I did was to have both MP's on opposite side walls as close to the back as possible. I only have one MP running at a time (no anti-sync, etc). The flow runs clockwise for 2 hours then reverses and runs counter clockwise. I decided that running the flow in one direction all the time may not be as healthy for the corals and ditritus finds places to hide. All is controlled by an Apex. My corals seem very happy with this arrangement. Running in the reef crest mode.

Edit: You cant reverse the MP, anti-sync = one fast and one slow. Sync = both do the same. Second, in my tank if both MP are running even with the second one at its lowest speed it disrupts the gyre flow too much if you want to alternate the flow direction like I do. Just mount your pumps on opposite ends and try all the ways that work best for you. Its amazing the flow that gets going, my tank looks like a toilet flushing .
Mark, how are you controlling your Vortechs? I didn't see a way to turn off a pump using ESL.

I would also be interested in seeing a photo (or diagram) of the powerhead placement within your tank. I am still trying to wrap my head around the gyre flow concept.

I am also curious how the return flow from a sump will disrupt the gyre pattern, as it isn't as easily reversed.


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Old 08/06/2014, 09:10 PM   #9
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I control my MP's with an Apex and a WXM module. I am not familiar with the finer points of ESL but cant you set the speed to zero in ESL? That's how I do it with the Apex and the MP stops. The way your MP's are positioned you cant reverse the flow. Move the one in front to the back of the side glass if you want to spin the water the other way.

Since this is EcoTechs equipment forum, maybe a thread needs to be started in another more general forum.


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Old 08/06/2014, 09:26 PM   #10
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Beautiful tank! And aquascape. That doesn't look crowded at all.

In the manual, Ecotech state that you need 4 pumps to create gyre flow. I think that would get expensive/crowded/ugly quite quickly. Putting 4 pumps in that tank would ruin the otherwise lovely aesthetics I think...

Mark's "pseudo-gyre" flow sounds like a good idea. No harm in trying it... see how the flow looks in your tank.

-droog


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Old 08/07/2014, 06:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark426 View Post
I control my MP's with an Apex and a WXM module. I am not familiar with the finer points of ESL but cant you set the speed to zero in ESL? That's how I do it with the Apex and the MP stops. The way your MP's are positioned you cant reverse the flow. Move the one in front to the back of the side glass if you want to spin the water the other way.

Since this is EcoTechs equipment forum, maybe a thread needs to be started in another more general forum.
Thanks for the information Mark, it is appreciated. I wouldn't think there would be any harm in discussing the proper way to create gyre flow using Vortechs within Ecotech's forum. I do agree a separate thread to discuss the dynamics of gyre flow would be very interesting and better suited for a general forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droog View Post
Beautiful tank! And aquascape. That doesn't look crowded at all.

In the manual, Ecotech state that you need 4 pumps to create gyre flow. I think that would get expensive/crowded/ugly quite quickly. Putting 4 pumps in that tank would ruin the otherwise lovely aesthetics I think...

Mark's "pseudo-gyre" flow sounds like a good idea. No harm in trying it... see how the flow looks in your tank.

-droog
Thanks Droog, glad you like the tank. I have a couple extra MP40's I will eventually use in a 120. I plan to temporarily add them to the 180 today to play around with the flow.I started another thread here yesterday called "Long Pulse Mode" which I will update once everything is in place.


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Old 08/07/2014, 09:14 AM   #12
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When using VorTech pumps, the best way to create a gyre is to use at least two or perhaps four pumps, depending on your aquarium size. When viewed from above, the pumps would be setup as shown in the attached image, below.



Next use Long Pulse mode and set the duration of the pulse to as long as possible. A good trick is that you can set the low speed achieved during long-pulse mode by entering in your feed mode speed to "barely spinning" through the Configuration Mode on your EcoSmart driver (refer to the Complete Instruction Manual, page 28 for instructions: http://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/...evision1.2.pdf).

The advantage to setting the low speed to "barely spinning" is that the "off" pump won't overpower the opposite pump when the flow direction changes.

A great example of how fantastic Gyres are and how well VorTech pumps can create them is our office's 350gal tank. This tank measures 6' long, 3' deep and 30" tall. The entire aquarium has two MP60 pumps on it, but only one is ever running at one time using Long Pulse mode and with the two pumps setup as above. That's some SERIOUS circulation for very little power consumption.


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Old 08/07/2014, 10:20 AM   #13
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Thanks Tim!

Below is what I set up this morning. I wanted the direction of flow to change every hour, going from clockwise to counter-clockwise. Is this advisable or would it best to always have the gyre flow going in the same direction?


When the pumps are on, I have them running at 75% with a pulse time of 60m


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Old 08/07/2014, 10:25 AM   #14
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You could do it simpler by having the Right Back MP40 be the only master.

Then:

Left Front MP40 - Sync with the Right Back
Right Front MP40 - Anti Sync with Right Back
Left Back MP40 - Anti-Sync with Right Back

You do not need to have the constant speed mode in the middle, just leave it on Long-pulse mode for the entire 8am to 6pm duration and set the frequency of the pulse cycle within long-pulse mode to 1hr. This will cause the flow to reverse every hour on its own without any other work necessary.

T


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Old 08/07/2014, 10:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine View Post
You could do it simpler by having the Right Back MP40 be the only master.

Then:

Left Front MP40 - Sync with the Right Back
Right Front MP40 - Anti Sync with Right Back
Left Back MP40 - Anti-Sync with Right Back

You do not need to have the constant speed mode in the middle, just leave it on Long-pulse mode for the entire 8am to 6pm duration and set the frequency of the pulse cycle within long-pulse mode to 1hr. This will cause the flow to reverse every hour on its own without any other work necessary.

T
Much easier to work with, thanks for setting me straight Tim.




Last edited by Tradewinds; 08/07/2014 at 11:09 AM. Reason: added image
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Old 08/07/2014, 11:37 AM   #16
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There ya go! Glad you got it sorted out. Now you can see just how easy it is to create a super efficient gyre using a VorTech pump.

With ESL the VorTech pump is truly unmatched for options and opportunity to do anything you want.


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Old 08/07/2014, 02:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droog View Post
Beautiful tank! And aquascape. That doesn't look crowded at all.

In the manual, Ecotech state that you need 4 pumps to create gyre flow. I think that would get expensive/crowded/ugly quite quickly. Putting 4 pumps in that tank would ruin the otherwise lovely aesthetics I think...

Mark's "pseudo-gyre" flow sounds like a good idea. No harm in trying it... see how the flow looks in your tank.

-droog
I don't think it looks much worse from the side view and I don't really notice them at all when viewing the tank from the front.




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Old 08/07/2014, 03:26 PM   #18
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I will have to test this on mine when I get home, or over the weekend.

Thanks!


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Old 08/17/2014, 07:21 AM   #19
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I will have to test this on mine when I get home, or over the weekend.

Thanks!
Worm - Did you ever get a chance to experiment with this? It has been working out well for me.


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Old 08/17/2014, 07:59 PM   #20
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Rats. No, I will this week. Forgot all about this. Thanks for the reminder.


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Old 02/17/2015, 01:15 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine View Post
You could do it simpler by having the Right Back MP40 be the only master.

Then:

Left Front MP40 - Sync with the Right Back
Right Front MP40 - Anti Sync with Right Back
Left Back MP40 - Anti-Sync with Right Back

You do not need to have the constant speed mode in the middle, just leave it on Long-pulse mode for the entire 8am to 6pm duration and set the frequency of the pulse cycle within long-pulse mode to 1hr. This will cause the flow to reverse every hour on its own without any other work necessary.

T

So now with the new advancement in the new quite drive drivers and wetsides a gyre is possible with only one mp40 instead 2 on each side?


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Old 02/17/2015, 10:00 AM   #22
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dup post


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Old 02/20/2015, 08:26 AM   #23
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So how many MP40s do you need for a gyre for 90 gallon tank?
Is the new Gyre mode the same as the long pulse mode?


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Old 02/20/2015, 09:20 AM   #24
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MP's have had long and short pulse mode for a while.

Some where (you tube maybe) I remember someone talking about it a while ago.


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Old 02/26/2015, 05:04 PM   #25
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So how many MP40s do you need for a gyre for 90 gallon tank?

Is the new Gyre mode the same as the long pulse mode?

Kinda the same question I was wounding. They did say it would take at least two on both side (so a totle of 4 mp40s) to get the gyre effect in a tank. But know with the new gyre mode on the ESL software update and QuiteDrivers are they now saying the gyre effect can be achieved by 1 mp40 on each side.
In my honest opinion ecotech should not be even trying to say that there pumps are good for a gyre effect. People buy vortechs for the controllability, the design, lack of heat transfer, and the service of ecotech that's what they need to be promoting again. Yes u can probably achieve a gyre effect with any vortech pump. Most likely the gyre did cut into the profits of the vortech line. So they thought they needed to compete but to me by them now stating that the pump can now do different things is the wrong way about trying to get sales back. Stuff like the new quite drivers and bringing out new products is the right way to get sales back.
I don't see why everyone is pro vortech or pro gyre pump. Both pumps are great at what they do.
Yes I had vortechs running on my current tank and now have none and have all guys pumps. But I could never get the flow I wanted at the peninsula end with out having the vortechs on the peninsula end. It drove me nuts to see the dry sides. So the gyre pumps worked better in my application.


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