Modernizing LED Color Choices - Discussion

[PIPSTER]

I hope this can of worms proves to be beneficial for many people, but it may not be for everyone.

For the in-depth expose', read more below, but in a nutshell, I want to accomplish modernizing a "standard" layout on a EG-type led light fixture I can get on any auction site for $100-$130 by switching out colors, but also include general light theory quite in-depth in this discussion, and my main goal is to eliminate any white led bulbs, so no phosphor masks. Just hit vital spectral areas, then balance the R-G-B to white balance taste. (my taste).

I know people will want to reference past monster aesthetics threads, but none of those have really been updated with what is now available to us with led colors, and I've seen only a couple try to do away with "white" leds. I would like to see if anybody else has tried these ideas, with pics, please.

I also will not be interested in effects on SPS, 'cause I'm not getting any SPS. So, my focus is on LPS like hammers, torches, acans, rics, and especially zoas. I want my tank to pop, and I don't mind a slight blueing of tank color, and really like a slight turqouise\cyan overall feel, too, just like the beach.


I've pulled a lot of resources from this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2315500
It can be a little bit of a feisty read, but I agree with the general gist of it, and it has great graphs and examples, which I stole to post here.

Also, I really like the pics that demonstrate different color combinations on this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2151584

Some of my pet peeves:
"Just use white and blue"
"White has all the red and yellow you need"
"I like a white yellow look"


Are you kidding? I do not want a flat brown, white tank!!!!

Here is an example, too...now I know photos are not necessarily true to real color, but take these as a literal example. I do not want my hammer to look like this:

Instead, I want my hammer to look like this:


I don't want my zoas to look like this:


I want them to look like this:


With me so far? Again, I understand photography could have made the bad photos out of good coral, but the actual colors you're seeing online is the example I want to demonstrate. I also know I have to buy coral that already has color characteristics potential.

I want to try modding a EG-style LED light, removing all "white" leds. I want to add a variety of colors that will hit the florescent trigger points of coral, but also add color to fish (more on that below).

Here's a list of colors:

400nm
410nm
420nm
430nm
440nm
450nm
460nm
470nm
480nm
490nm (495nm for actual led)
500nm
510nm
520nm
580~585nm
590nm...depending on the actual wideness of spectral spread of the 580~585nm
630nm (for apparent color balancing only)

Here's the chart I use to reason why I want so many different colors, credit pacificsun:

The dots show the spectrum of color we see from the fluorescence of color given off by coral in relation to the color received by the coral. 400nm, 425nm, 495-510nm, and ~585nm are priority for hitting with peaks, as they result in multiple colors coming back at us for our viewing pleasure.

You can see the green florescence in a UV only pic on a BTA, even though there is no green light:
Attachment 305018
...and here is orange florescence under cyan ~500nm
Attachment 305019

You'll notice I've stayed away from bright green and yellows on my color selection. That's why I don't want "white" leds, they have a phosphor mask that blows up yellow\green, and that masks the colors I want to see. That should be apparent in this graph:

The eye sees green\yellow as the brightest colors, so people are always running their combinations as 3:1 blue-to-white ratio to try to balance.



I think I can use ~450nm, ~510nm, and either ~585nm or 630nm at different levels to create the overall "white balance", or feel I want, while being able to see colors and will have enough lights with in-between spectrums to see directly reflected colors.

I really like the overall ambiance of this tank pic, by pacificsun:

It has a turquoise kind of reflection on the sides of the glass, which may come from coral and outside reflections, too. You can see the coral are not in a listerine bath. I would like to emulate it, if possible for my daytime lighting. I'll have blues\uv on separate dimmer\cord timer for a little sunrise\sunset.

Now for those who think green\red is not necessary (turquoise\amber), I want my fish to look nice, too. Look at the difference on this mandarin. The top photo is neutral white\royal blue. The bottom is turquoise\red.

I think I could get somewhere in-between.

What say you guys so far?

[boxfishpooalot]

I say go for it! You seem smart, so I think you could pull it off. I agree about the white yellow look, gross.

Leds suck unless you can control the primary colours. White/blue also sucks. But high end fixtures will allow you to do what you want like the radion with an apex or Aqua illumination with Apex. Kessil a are the most sun looking light I've ever seen. Shimmer like nothing else, even beats metal halide. Only thing is it can't dim below 10% intensity which bothers me very much!

Try it!

[Jim Z.]

I built my LED's to produce color pop without being overly blue. The violet LED's are key as they generate a lot of florescence--especially with greens. I use 2 Royal Blues per warm white and have a smaller number of blues for color balance. Some whites are good in the spectrum and help with color balance. I also have 4 OCW's which provide red, green, and turquoise blue. Overall, I am pleased with how the tank looks. Another key feature is that each color is on its own channel so that I can tweak each one independently. My whites run at 30% while the blues run at 70%. All of my Acropora have very nice color and zoanthids glow. I am trying to get photos together to show you how the tank looks................Jim

[PIPSTER]

Originally Posted by Jim Z.

I built my LED's to produce color pop without being overly blue. The violet LED's are key as they generate a lot of florescence--especially with greens. I use 2 Royal Blues per warm white and have a smaller number of blues for color balance. Some whites are good in the spectrum and help with color balance. I also have 4 OCW's which provide red, green, and turquoise blue. Overall, I am pleased with how the tank looks. Another key feature is that each color is on its own channel so that I can tweak each one independently. My whites run at 30% while the blues run at 70%. All of my Acropora have very nice color and zoanthids glow. I am trying to get photos together to show you how the tank looks................Jim

I would be interested to see what a tank looks like with just OCW's on. The only thing about them is, I don't think I could mod a EG style light with them.

[PIPSTER]

I've been scrounging around for a color mixing simulator online to try to start finding a good mix of colors. So far, all I've found is a phillips online tool that I have to wait for them to approve a registration for before I can see if it works.

If I just use the standard RGB, I can just reduce the red by 10-20%, and maybe the blue 2%, but I want to be able to see actual spectum inputs, like 420nm, 500nm, 590nm together, for instance.

[pwreef]

It's good to experiment, but I see two issues with your approach:
1. Chinese fixtures are only 2 channels. You cannot control colors with just mixing the correct ratios on 2 channels. Color LEDs have such a wide variation in intensity with different currents it will be very hard to match what you want on just 2 channels. You will endlessly solder and de-solder LEDs. Mixing colors in rows is futile attempt. You WILL get disco effect.
2. Using 'Chinese' LEDs is like buying paint in the paint store that was mixed to be 'close enough' and then expecting it to look like the color sample. Quality control is not the best. Color LEDs are tricky to make correctly as phosphor formulation and production/application has to be just right.
Read two articles linked from this page for more info:
http://reefll.com/index.php?route=information/theory
Good luck!

[PIPSTER]

I was hoping to simulate colors used so I wouldn't have to solder and re-solder. Phillips won't allow me to register because I don't have a "business" address. So much for the individual.
I know there may be some variance on "nm" from cheap led makers, but I want such a variety anyways, that I'm not worried about missing a spectrum, as much as balancing the colors. The reds vs. greens will be the main challenge to balance.
We all stare at LED backlit monitors reading this site, I don't see what would be so hard about programming a color mixing simulator. I have used the 1023world.net\diy\led. but , it doesn't have a final visual appearance of the color combination.

[PIPSTER]

I think this is a good graph to use, 3 dimensional with RGB at the corners.
I found a spectrum estimator\mixer, but I don't know how accurate it is, or if I can list the name of the website here, since it is a DIY led seller.

I think if I start with a few lights, and add from there, I can experiment a little without having to rip them back out.

[PIPSTER]

Anybody tried no whites?

Anybody have a Pacific Sun Hyperion without t5s that's experimented with settings?

[mandarin417]

Seems like working with Build My Led would be a good resource since you can customize your mix - http://www.bmlcustom.com/

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by PIPSTER

Anybody tried no whites?

Anybody have a Pacific Sun Hyperion without t5s that's experimented with settings?

Why would you want to? White is full spectrum light and would help smooth out the narrow band width spikes you get with colored diodes.

[PIPSTER]

Originally Posted by mandarin417

Seems like working with Build My Led would be a good resource since you can customize your mix - http://www.bmlcustom.com/

I guess I'm letting you take the hit if that link produces trouble, but that is the spectrum combiner i was referring to in an earlier post. It seems to take a lot of green to get it to white, and just adding 1 blue 470 makes it all blue. It seems not true to life...but I don't include any whites, either.


~Wazzel...I'm trying to escape from the greenish-yellowish light entirely, namely between 555nm and 580nm. I want spikes on purpose on the fluorescing spectra, balanced to a mostly white. Once I have really started putting the light together I may leave 1 or 2 cool or natural whites if I see a lack of reflected colors, but again, I'm not going to have SPS, just LPS like torches, hammers, acans, and especially zoas with already nice colors, like fruitloops. There won't be any neutral or pale colors I will want to see, I think.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by PIPSTER

It seems to take a lot of green to get it to white, and just adding 1 blue 470 makes it all blue. It seems not true to life...but I don't include any whites, either.

This is because green LEDs are ridiculously inefficient (termed "green gap").

[PIPSTER]

Originally Posted by shermanator

This is because green LEDs are ridiculously inefficient (termed "green gap").

Thanks for noting that...I wasn't aware they could be weak. I thought I remember some people saying just adding one green led made their tank too green, but not so much?

I've heard red is strong.

Obviously you can tell I haven't had the hands-on experience with combining colors yet.

What about cyan?

[shermanator]

I'm not sure what you are wanting to do makes that much sense. You seem to say you want hyper-fluorescent colors, but you can get that by keeping whites in the fixture.

I know there are problems with white LEDs (the fact that the spectrum changes as they dim is one issue), but I've not read any long term success stories with "no white" fixtures. Pacific Sun doesn't have whites in their fixture (and seems to be a selling point), but there doesn't seem to be long term success with their LEDs alone (rather they keep adding more and more "supplemental" T5s to their light fixtures, they are up to 8 T5s now).

If you want the cyan look, that can be accomplished. And if you want the hyper-fluorescent look, that can be accomplished. I'm not sure either will give you optimal or even good growth (for which you should be thinking about mimicking MH spectra). But you don't need to avoid whites to do what you want color-wise.

--

If you really, really don't want to use white LEDs, here are two options -- I would not recommend either:

1) mimic ocean coral white (cyan + blue + deep red). I like OCW in combination with 2:1 RB:WW. Here is without the RB:WW additions: http://www.bmlcustom.com/custom-repo...OTMOTMOTMOTMOT

2) mimic pacific sun LEDs (I don't recommend this for anything but viewing, but I made this BML arrangement a while back): http://www.bmlcustom.com/custom-repo...OQJMOQSMOKOQMO

[Steve Atkins]

Originally Posted by shermanator

......the fact that the spectrum changes as they dim is one issue.....[/url]

Doesn't using pulse width modulation to do the dimming fix that.

Steve

[jayball]

I doubt you are going to get any sort of decent color balance without a lot of channels for dimming to fine tune it. I would look into a diffuser plate to blend everything in any case.

[Fredfish]

Originally Posted by jayball

I doubt you are going to get any sort of decent color balance without a lot of channels for dimming to fine tune it. I would look into a diffuser plate to blend everything in any case.

That is the issue. From what I have read, Fluorescent tubes have ended up with the tri-colour bands they have because that is the most effective way to get to high lumens (perceived brightness) while still achieving reasonable colour balance.

What is needed to get that combination is green centered on 550nm. There is no direct radiating LED that can do that. The closest we have is the Luxeon lime, which is phosphor based.

Edit: Actually, re-reading the paper I found this in, its the wavelength of the blue and red that are more important, but you still need an efficient emitter in the green band. Page 5

[jedimasterben]

You will not get good results by making an RGB setup using only 450nm, 510nm, and 630nm. This is why RGB LEDs are not used over reef tanks. They give very poor color rendition of anything that is non-fluorescent and needs spectra in the wavelengths completely missed to excite.

These are Philips Rebel & Rebel ES diodes.
White



Direct color



Phosphor-converted



Notice the insane gaps if you were to use only royal blue, green, and red. What will that get you? Fish will look bad, red corals will look bad, yellow corals will look bad, small life like snails, feather dusters, clams will look bad.

In addition, if you want your zoanthids to look like the extreme fluorescent pic in the first post, you will have to eliminate basically all other light except ~470nm and below, which will eliminate being able to see fish and non-fluorescent colors, and you'll still need Photoshop to be able to see things quite like that photo.

What works the 'best' so far in the designs I've done is a mixture of a very high CRI white (usually warmer white, CRI 90+), Rebel ES 'lime', royal blue, blue, cyan, and violet. The warm white covers the entire red end of the visible spectrum, with a FWHM from 540-660nm, lime to really hammer in visible brightness of the fixture, and violet, royal blue, blue to hit fluorescent pigments. Cyan is there to help fill in the rest of the 'white gap' and will help with red, orange, and yellow non-fluorescent pigments.

You'll want a minimum of two to four royal blue for every white/lime and one blue for every four royal blue. Violet, add as much as you have money for, and cyan use sparingly, you don't need much to get the effect, but you need to make sure you have enough for proper coverage of your tank and just run them at lower currents.

[Fredfish]

Originally Posted by jedimasterben

...
Notice the insane gaps if you were to use only royal blue, green, and red. What will that get you? Fish will look bad, red corals will look bad, yellow corals will look bad, small life like snails, feather dusters, clams will look bad...

That may be true of LEDs, but look at the spectral plots of the popular T5 bulbs, or even the popular metal halides. There are huge spectral gaps, yet they produce an approximation of white that a lot of people like.

The paper I linked to above states the following:

To produce a white light with CRI > 80, the blue emission line is required to be in the range of 440-490 nm and the red emission line in 595–618 nm.

While the green is is apparently not so important, the advantage of a phosphor that generates that light closest to the spectra our eyes are most sensitive to is obvious. AND, looking at the spectral plots for something like the ATI Aquablue, it works quite well.

Pipster. To get close to something like the Aquablue, I think you would need the following: violet, royal blue, blue, cyan, red orange@617nm, red@627 (values from Luxeon Rebel data sheet) AND a source of green.

Right now the most effective source of green appears to be the phosphor based Luxeon lime. You could try the green direct emitter at 530, but I suspect it won't work out.

To get the proper mix, you would need something like the following clustered:
4x Royal Blue
2x Blue
1x Cyan
2x lime (or 2+ green)
1x red orange
1x red
2x violet (410 + 420)

If you look at the chart of spectral absorption and emission, you probably want to add amber as well. So, to get the colours you want, the minimum cluster size is 14 LEDs

To get reasonable light spread over your tank, I think you would need an absolute minimum of 2 clusters per 18" x 18" area of tank.

For a 40 breeder that would be 4 clusters.

So far, this can be done from a source like Steves and/or Rapid LED. If you want to add more LEDs per your first post, you would need to source those

You mentioned updating the spectra for units commonly available on the internet @ $100-130. The cost for the LEDs alone for the above (4 clusters) is around $220. By the time you add drivers, heat sinks, a decent soldering station (which you'll need for that much soldering), wires, enclosure etc. you are probably at $500.

Depending on how sensitive to light blending (disco effect) you may also need a diffuser. I suppose if you are not particularly sensitive, you could get away with a more grid like layout as well. That's something you would need to figure out.

Once you get all this together, I expect you would need quite a while to tune your fixture (7 channels) to get the colour you want.

After all that, and for the cost, you might as well just buy a Pacific Sun fixture. Well, unless you really like building stuff.

[PIPSTER]

Thanks to everybody for your replies.

I hope my replies are not misunderstood. I want to use a lot of variety of different nm of leds to cover spectrum, and I may use 1-2 whites or try 1 Rebel lime, if it seems desired reflected colors are not showing. I won't just use 450nm, 510nm, and 630nm alone, just that I wanted those to be the spikes to control the white balance with. But I also am curious about using 420nm, 490nm, and 590nm for the spike levels.

I was at the LFS over the weekend, and they had their radions on, I think 30w pro, with just blues and a green and a red for the morning "sunrise", and the water did not look "windexy" to me at all, there was just an overall blueish tint, and the colors on the coral were very much what I liked. I noticed a slight "disco effect", but even if it was magnified, it doesn't bother me. Their fish colors looked fine: Clowns, triggers, tangs, wrasses, etc.
Isn't it ~470nm that is really windex, strong blue color?

I'm pretty sure I don't want to start a DIY LED from scratch, especially when I can get the basics in a complete unit and switch out a few leds for a fraction of the cost. I'm currently leaning towards an OR unit because the cost of two external timers is already more than a cheap ebay unit. Then, I'll just add a few cyan and amber and uv leds, taking out some of the whites, although pictures of peoples corals online with these lights do look pretty good already.

[PIPSTER]

Of course, OR bumped their price up, so now I'm back to looking at EG styles...too many of them have little 450nm and too many 470nm.

[beolson25]

Ok ... here is a thought ... Create a cheap(relatively) DIY LED project that has a group of all of the LEDS you want to use. Primarily Red, Green, Blue ... maybe some slight variations. Get a single power supply that can power 10ish LEDs and buy some of the LDD Dimmable drivers. Then put those LEDs on a single heatsink and control the dimming of each different color independently. You can then put that fixture over a small 5-10 gallon tank and test your specific corals and livestock for the colors you are looking for. That way you can say(for example) ... I need 20% red, 20% green, and 60% blue(No idea what the real numbers would be).

It is a bit of an investment but I could see it being very useful to the reef community to do these kinds of tests and post pictures at different levels which would give the average person a tool to compare. Not sure if you are the person to do it but I think you could build that LED array for ~$200 or less.

Anyway ... just wanted to add my $.02.

[mpierce]

Originally Posted by PIPSTER

Of course, OR bumped their price up, so now I'm back to looking at EG styles...too many of them have little 450nm and too many 470nm.

The S026 is still $136. Hook it up to a tank controller. No need for built in timers.

[PIPSTER]

now all the places I want to buy single leds from are on chinese holiday until the end of the month... *sigh*