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Old 09/29/2015, 11:56 AM   #1
Wally.B
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Can't Grow "CERTAIN" Zoa's (In Mature Healthy Tank). Photo (Is this ChemicalWarfare?)

Hi,

MY MAIN QUESTION (Zoa's growing should be Easy, in a 15 year old Stable Healthy Tank):

Is This Mix of Corals a Chemical War Fare, hindering my Zoa growing Abilities?
(See Photo Below with Details)

For years, I've never been able to grow Zoa's. Bought them, in single Polyps, Colony's and they would fade away (Usually quite quickly).

Last Dec, 2014 I had all fish die, so overhauled the Tank & Lighting (5 months ago) with Hope to start Zoa patches (since I love the Zoa Garden look).

STILL HAVING ZOA's growing issues. (but not all, so see details and picture below to help me find a reason, or better a fix!!)


So as per STICKY, I'll answer the following questions:

0. LiveStock
----> No Fish. Just a few Hermit Crabs, Snails, Emerald Crab, Tank has Plenty of Live CopePods & Brine Shrimps

1. Temp of tank
----> (78-79 Degree)

2. All parameters including , Alk, PH, Mag etc
----> STABLE [ALK=8.5, CALC=425, MAG=1325, NO3=<1.0 PO4=0.04]
3. Salinity
----> [1.025]
4. Is it a frag, colony, new addition, wild caught or not, shipped or pick up?
----> Issue is with MOST new adds, while SOME Zoa's are splitting/growing (Utter Chaos and Green Palys).
5. Have you made any changes just prior to or during the issue?
----> Many times, but point is recently no changes in 4 months (Other than started TARGET feeding Corals with is helping).
6. List the current/flow, even lighting when applicable.
----> CIRCULATION: [3 Alternating Powerheads, medium-Low Circulation (remove Gyre and things improved)]
----> LIGHTING: [Converted FROM 2x150W MH/T5, TO 1x Kessil @40% / 4x T5 (dimmable). ]
---->(Have Detailed Tank PAR Readings if required, but TANK Bottom 100 PARs, TOP 200 PARs at 100% all lights)
---->(I understand that Kesil has inaccurate PAR readings due to UV LED's, thus only running at 40% MAX)
7. Additives/Coral Feeding.
---> Recently TARGET feeding 1x a week:
----> (Reef Roids, Coral Frenzy, and sometimes (Seachem Fuel, Reef Nutrition PhytoFeast)
----> (Careful not to over feed since Tank Does get Algae problems.)

8. Filtration
----> ---> EuroReef Skimmer, 20 GAL Water Volume Sump with Lots of Live Rock, Carbon


HERE Is the Photo of 90 Gallon Tank (Glass Bottom Tank) during Actinic Lighting Period.




This photo was a few days ago, when Zoa's were doing good on First Intro into Tank.

Now 4 days later they are just Buds and not opening (they will fade and die like many times before).

I have moved them to bottom of Tank, to see if it's lighting/acclimatization.

Why is my Utter Chaos doing to well and also the Palys?

Here is a full spectrum Photo.


As shown, there is plenty of Rockscaping to grow some really nice Zoa patches, to complete the look I want.

My goal is to never go "Need to Feed Fish", since this is a 2nd tank and too busy trying to Learn New SPS Tank with Fish.
GOAL is a couple of Mandarins that will eat Live CopePod's Galore. Possibly 1 Copperband Butterfly which also eat Pods.

Thanks for any advice.




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Old 09/29/2015, 11:53 PM   #2
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Did you find out the rationale of what cause all your fish to die? So now the tank is roughly 9 months old full of only inverts? no longer the 15yr old stable tank.

what is the new zoa that is having said problem?

btw those "Green buttom polyp" paly's are super invasive and can take a licking and keep ticking, they're weeds and can take over a whole tank.

The the utters receive proper lighting acclimation when introduced to the tank?

The polyps being added and dying constantly are the same strains being added or its any new polyp? there are some Z's and P's that are JUST too sensitive.


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Old 09/30/2015, 02:14 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 650-IS350 View Post
Did you find out the rationale of what cause all your fish to die? So now the tank is roughly 9 months old full of only inverts? no longer the 15yr old stable tank.

what is the new zoa that is having said problem?

btw those "Green buttom polyp" paly's are super invasive and can take a licking and keep ticking, they're weeds and can take over a whole tank.

The the utters receive proper lighting acclimation when introduced to the tank?

The polyps being added and dying constantly are the same strains being added or its any new polyp? there are some Z's and P's that are JUST too sensitive.
- Quick answer (no these new utters were not acclimatized super slowly to lighting.) (Didn't think they needed that, since my lighting is not yet set at max).
- All 5 new Zoa Frag Pods reacted the same (5 different kinds. Really Cheap ones, on clearance 5 for $25).

-Tank was never really Torn down (completely). Just removed Corals into a holding tank and left rocks and water with complete system running. (To go Fallow, to eliminate any chance of residual Velvet Disease). During waiting period, re-did lighting, and put corals back.

- Fish all died of Velvet. Caused by introducing a Clown. Learned a good lesson about doing quarantine. Was caught off guard since never had disease other than Ick (once long ago) in 15+ years. Worst part was losing the 15 year old Power Blue Tang who was around for many adventures in that tank.

- Polyp Fading to nothing over time was more of a thing in past during MH light days. When I gave up adding any more.
Was hoping that was behind me with change to Controlled Dimmable Kessil/T5. (Till these new intro's started fading).

- Will watch the Green Buttons (kind of was happy something NON LPS was doing ok)

- I agree on the lighting acclimation (possible mistake) since the Utter Chaos was my first Zoa introduction (It was first Zoa test and Treated with extra Caution), So after success threw these ALL new ones in a bit hastily. (I just lowered them to Tank Bottom/Partial Shade. Will wait for them to recover and then bring up (Slowly, like I did with the Utter Chaos)


My wrong assumption , was that Kessil at 40% and T5 dimmables quite low, would be gentle to the Zoa's, especially this low in the tank. Might be wrong since store bought from were under low intensity Blue LED's.

Also thinking back to when I sparked up new Lighting. Even the Frogspawn took 6+ weeks to acclimatize (being previously at top under MH lighting).

If I take a 2nd try at acclimatization, will the Zoa's recover? Or are they like SPS, bleach away after a strong burn?
Also, what is the typical Acclimatization period for Zoa's 1-2 weeks? more?


So what you are answering wrt. to my main question, is that none of the Corals in my are Tank Toxic to the Zoa's specifically, at a reasonable distance. (THANKS).



Last edited by Wally.B; 09/30/2015 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 09/30/2015, 12:18 PM   #4
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I'd lower the stregnth of the LEDs dial it down a bit till the corals look like they're starting to open up and happy. Start them at the bottom not directly under the bulbs, slowly move them up and under the light as time goes and as you slowly ramp up the LED.


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Old 09/30/2015, 05:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 650-IS350 View Post
I'd lower the stregnth of the LEDs dial it down a bit till the corals look like they're starting to open up and happy. Start them at the bottom not directly under the bulbs, slowly move them up and under the light as time goes and as you slowly ramp up the LED.
Thanks. I will do that.

But for now, I've setup a Frag Zoa Hospital & Spa IN MY SUMP. (with spare parts)


- Kludged together a Frag Tray with Fence in my Sump.
-------> Fence is to protect them from a Pencil Urchin in Sump who loves any spec of Coraline (Stove a few plugs last time) .
-------> Get's light from other SPS Tank next to sump.
-------> Added a hacked together 5050 Led strip for some gentle lighting (Can run as long as I want to acclimatize Custom).
-------> Great place for Zoa recovery and place to feed them easily to fatten up before returning to tank.
-------> Even added a tiny bit of extra circulation running off skimmer output.

- This will eliminate any Coral Toxen concerns since same system.
- Already seeing signs of improvement.

So it was most likely over lighting.

Man that Kesil is strong even at 40%. Doesn't turn on till 13%. Must be the UV leds.



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Old 09/30/2015, 05:54 PM   #6
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Yep my A360 WE running in my 37 gal cube had to run it a lowest level and turn 1 notch every couple days till corals were happy at max blue and partial white. I'm still trying to acclimate them to white as I ramp up,

My old system on A350 I ran that full blast both spectrum at max and corals were happy. any coral added had to be placed at the back corners of tank in bottom and slowly moved up as time went on as to not put Light Shock on the corals.


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Old 10/01/2015, 08:59 AM   #7
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Yep my A360 WE running in my 37 gal cube had to run it a lowest level and turn 1 notch every couple days till corals were happy at max blue and partial white. I'm still trying to acclimate them to white as I ramp up,

My old system on A350 I ran that full blast both spectrum at max and corals were happy. any coral added had to be placed at the back corners of tank in bottom and slowly moved up as time went on as to not put Light Shock on the corals.
So I also have the Kessil A360 WE in a Custom Built Canopy.
What are your Kessil setting (Intensity/Spectrum), plus Photo Period and accepted by Zoa's? (I understand you are still working on White)

My feeling is that I'll never be running anywhere near 100% (Unless Zoa's go in cave or something).

OR if I acclimatize (slowly) the Zoa's, Will they handle high lighting (Placed lower in tank)?

- Just A SINGLE (A360 WE) centered on a 4ft Tank
- Normally not enough, but Width wise I get full coverage where corals are.
- But added 4x T5's (two are dimmable) as Fillers and Extra PARS.

All controlled by Apex.

Picture might help (Taken from my Canopy Build Thread)
[Lighting/Programing is designed to have my tank look different all day long].
(Sunrise-to-Sunset, Blue ,White, Redish, DeepBlue, with and without Kessil Shimmer, etc].



I originally started more aggressive after finishing Canopy Build, and had to back off since EVEN LPS were getting shocked.

Thought moving from 2 x 150W MH, + 2x T5 would be a decrease in intensity.

BTW. I guess moving Zoa's to SPA in Sump will mean starting a fresh "Lighting" Acclimatization Cycle once they go back in DT (which is fine with me).



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Old 10/01/2015, 01:40 PM   #8
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This is an interesting problem. Your posts and graphs regarding your lighting blow me away. Nicely done.
Because you had this issue with your older lighting and the new lighting, which seems very reasonable according to your graphs and you are quite careful with acclimation, your melting issue doesn't appear, to me, to be lighting dependent.
Your info states that you are running carbon, which should go some distance in treating a chemical problem.
Seemly that leaves bad actors such as various types of diseases, fungi, and parasites. You did lose your fish to velvet. So you might want to think along the lines of a uv sterilizer or might want to look into vitamin c dosing. Just a guess......


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Old 10/01/2015, 02:59 PM   #9
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Back when I had a 8 bulb Tek light on my 100gal I had Z's and P's roughly 5-8" just below the water's surface. The Tek was only 6" or so above the water surface. Z's and P's were acclimated slowly to the light and move up accordingly.

Really old pictures.
Same with my A360, I had Z's and P's front corner of tank roughly 6" below surface with A350 back them at Max on both blue and white.



See the Z's and P's on top right which is only 6" or so below water surface.



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Old 10/01/2015, 03:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean envy View Post
This is an interesting problem. Your posts and graphs regarding your lighting blow me away. Nicely done.
Because you had this issue with your older lighting and the new lighting, which seems very reasonable according to your graphs and you are quite careful with acclimation, your melting issue doesn't appear, to me, to be lighting dependent.
Your info states that you are running carbon, which should go some distance in treating a chemical problem.
Seemly that leaves bad actors such as various types of diseases, fungi, and parasites. You did lose your fish to velvet. So you might want to think along the lines of a uv sterilizer or might want to look into vitamin c dosing. Just a guess......
Yes, I do like to be detailed (Avoids readers 2nd guessing).
Thanks for noticing.

I don't think I have any disease, parasite, fungi issues. Tank has been Fallow triple the recommended period of time for complete eradication. (Sure never 100%, but risk drops after 3 months to 99.xxx %).

Plus this is Corals and not Fish, so Velvet not an issue.

Sure UV could possibly be a good thing, but less equipment is better (if not really necessary).

UV, Carbon or anything wouldn't have stopped my Velvet wipe out. Only Proper FISH QUARTENTINE is the way to go.

I actually WAS NOT careful of Lighting Acclimation this last Zoa Add. For the Utter Chaos, I was careful and it has multiplied quickly.

Plus now those exact Zoa's pump in my sump temporarily, are quickly recovering (so it's not anything in the Water Column). We'll see.

My Acan's are more sensitive, and they are doing well, after proper lighting acclimatization.

I'll see how things go in sump, and eventually move Zoa's back into my tank properly (slow acclimatization to Lights).

Will post some detailed results again.


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Old 10/01/2015, 03:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 650-IS350 View Post
Back when I had a 8 bulb Tek light on my 100gal I had Z's and P's roughly 5-8" just below the water's surface. The Tek was only 6" or so above the water surface. Z's and P's were acclimated slowly to the light and move up accordingly.

Really old pictures.
Same with my A360, I had Z's and P's front corner of tank roughly 6" below surface with A350 back them at Max on both blue and white.
Excellent!!!

Just what I wanted to hear!!


I have lots of corners and caves, overhangs and shadow area's,...Will start there next time.).

Thanks.


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Old 10/01/2015, 05:33 PM   #12
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I'm not convinced that the lighting is the real issue. You stated that you've had problems with zoas for years and that you recently switched from 150 mhs to the 360. I never had any issues growing zoas at any level of a 24 inch deep tank when I used to have a 150mh 14k, and now I run 175mhs 14ks with vho's in a 21inch deep tank. I don't do any gradual acclimation and have no issues with them. I'm not saying that light can't play a roll, but I think your issue likely lurks in the tank, say in the rocks or substrate.

I've had people with outstanding tanks that run a uv tell me they rarely lose a fish. I think it's effects can be strong . As an example Live Marine states that -
"Properly sized UV sterilizers will also kill the dinospores", of the free swimming form of the organism that causes velvet. This is just an example of organism that can be treated this way. Of course it could be something else. There are lots of possibilities. My point being that the uv could cure the issue, but you may not be able to pin point what it was. In any event I hope you are able to resolve the issue soon, one way or another, and grow some nice zoas.


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Old 10/01/2015, 07:06 PM   #13
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I'm all ears. Always willing to listen to advice for consideration. Anything to get Zoa Patches into my tank.

Right now I'll watch the Zoa's in the sump, but what makes me lean toward a lighting burn (due to improper acclimation), are these two evidence pictures below.

This Utter Chaos Zoa was 1 polyp. It has multiplied to 7 after a few months. (That never happended before in previous tank setup)


These are the burned Zoa's after 1 day in sump (I now took all out of tank). TWO-THREE are still shocked, but the others doing pretty good.
- Today I put a few drops of PolyLab (Poly-Booster) into the tray, and saw them open up more, right in front of my eyes.




I definitely will be considering a UV Sterilizer When/If I ever get fish..
I just spoke with ORA this week. They will be releasing CaptiveBred (pellet eating) Madarin Fish in about 6 months (after 2 years of waiting).
I plan on getting a pair for this tank. Maybe even two pairs if things work out with first pair.

BTW. If anyone in interested in this TANKS Custom Lighting Canopy Build. One of my best written threads is right here.
Tells the whole story about the Velvet, Tank Tear Down, and Rebuilds.
★Ultimate DIY Lighting Canopy★ (T5,Kessil, T5 Dimmable, LED, LED) Combo: THE JOURNEY



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Old 10/02/2015, 05:23 AM   #14
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I contacted ora a short while back and they didn't have any mandarins available, although they had in the past. I'd like one too. I just got a bag of brine shrimp eggs and will be attempting an in tank brine shrimp hatchery/feeder(Paul B style), as I would also like to try some pipe fish. Those dragon faces are supposed to be the hardiest of the crew, very interesting to watch and other fish apparently leave them alone, as they present no conspecific or other issues with the vast majority of the commonly kept reef fish. Besides I think pipefish are cool. Good luck with your issue, it seems what ever it was is about done anyway.


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Old 10/02/2015, 08:26 AM   #15
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Interesting that you mentioned Pipefish. I never hear of them before.

Last weekend I was at a fishstore and was telling them about planning a Madarin/copperband tank. The girl was suggesting a Pipefish which they get sometime.


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Old 10/07/2015, 02:06 PM   #16
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So I waited for the Zoa's to all open up in the Sump SPA.

I picked one really open one and put back into the DT. (Really Shady spot, no direct light path from Kessil and medium circulation).

It closed up after Lights came on and isn't opening.

Is this how Zoa's acclimatize (They stay closed for a while)?

Or should I be looking for a DARKER SPOT where they open up, and the move to brighter area's over time?


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Old 10/07/2015, 05:31 PM   #17
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None direct light slightly shaded but not in the dark


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Old 10/07/2015, 08:16 PM   #18
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Ok, it seems like it is time to start adjust the lights in earnest.

How about cutting the intensity of the lights in half and then adding the open zoas and noting the result.

If it is positive ( meaning that it remains open) then up the intensity by 10% every few days and see what happens.


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Old 10/07/2015, 11:51 PM   #19
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COULD IT BE THIS? (Causing Zoa's to close up)

So far the suggestion is Lighting, and even suggestion to reduce more (but evidence is I'm running too low my other Corals)

I personally like puzzles, and mystery solving, but hate when it comes to my aquariums.

What I do know, is the best approach is process of elimination, so let me try.

FIRST ELIMINATION:

- I know it is not the Water, since Zoa's did well in the sump. Circulation similar (gentle).
- I thought it may be Kessil UV Lighting (Too intense), thus the reason for the move to the sump.

During Zoa sump time, I did take the opportunity to slowly ramp up the Lighting. (slightly differently. Changed Kessil to Blue only, but ramped up intensity).
In just a couple of days, all my light starved Corals took off. Even the Finger leather perked up and polyped (first time with NEW lighting).
So the tank does need more lighting (both Intensity, and mostly likely PhotoPeriod too).

SECOND ELIMINATION:

- I put back one Zoa, in a SHADY SPOT, with no NO direct Lighting.
- I also turned off my NON-Dimmable T5 Pair (So I could control Intensity overall). T5' ramp up/down slowly and never reach peak setting for long.

See Zoa's Plug placement. (Must be quite low on Photo Exposure, since shaded and Lights on low).


COULD IT BE THIS?

I was looking closely a the Zoa put back in the tank and notice that it's being swarmed by Brine Shrimps. No other Coral Plugs are being swarmed like this in my tank.
It could be they are picking/tickling the Zoa (light food dust remains), since in sump I was feeding it a mix of foods (Coral Frenzy, Reef Roids, PolyBooster).


Brine Shrimps Swarming/Picking at Zoa Plug (The won't leave it alone)



I'll wait a few more days, in this shady position, with currently lighting (lower Than Ever Before) and see what happens (hope the Brine Shrimps leave).

IF THAT Doesn't WORK I'll cut back lighting more, but there isn't much to cut back if you consider the shaded position.



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Old 10/08/2015, 01:44 PM   #20
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Those are Ampipods, I erradicate those things as I've had those decimate Zs and Ps on my other tanks. Especially when you have a really large population in your tank.

Search here and also on youtube, you'll see vids of those things tearing at polyps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62kaq0T1gU0


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Old 10/08/2015, 08:04 PM   #21
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Those are Ampipods, I erradicate those things as I've had those decimate Zs and Ps on my other tanks. Especially when you have a really large population in your tank.

Search here and also on youtube, you'll see vids of those things tearing at polyps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62kaq0T1gU0
Thanks so much (I was starting to guess). I knew it was something other than my lighting.

How did you get rid of them? I read posts.

I have no fish, so was thinking they are getting out of control having no predator.

Need to get a fish. Spoke with Local Fish Store and they said LongNose HawkFish might be a good choice. I placed an order.


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Old 10/09/2015, 04:08 PM   #22
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Moving Forward (Got a Longnose Hawkfish)

So I'm pretty sure my Zoa griefs were not lighting, but the Ampipods (which many posts say folks have had issues with Zoa's ). Some counter arguments, but anyone with problems like I've point to these pests.

- So I've put back all Zoa's into Sump Frag Tray
- STARTED slowly increasing my PhotoPeriod (which had been lagging for some time)


And got this nice Ampipod eating fish (Longnosed Hawkfish)



He'll be alone in the tank, (with snails and hermits), and I'll see what he needs for extra feeding, but not too soon.
Best to keep him hungry and hunting

(After a 2 hours drip, he's in the tank and fits in quite nicely)


Yes there is a risk to hermits, but that's ok. I'd rather have snails for Algae control. Certainly cheaper than replacing Zoa's continuously.



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Old 10/09/2015, 05:38 PM   #23
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Wrasses, Halichoeres family. Or yellow/green coris wrasse.


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Old 10/09/2015, 05:41 PM   #24
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http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/a...ll-article.htm


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Old 10/09/2015, 06:07 PM   #25
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Those are very cool fish. Mine took too much of an interest in my cleaner shrimp and then he was no more. Other than that, it was nice to see him out.


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