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Old 10/12/2015, 11:18 AM   #26
Wally.B
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HAWKFISH is doing it's work. (Saw with my own eyes, eating an Ampipod.).

So today, I was watching the Hawkfish, sitting and watching my Zoa Frag Pod.

Then he lurched and got a Ampipod. Chewed it down nicely.

This is GREAT!!!

I did offer him some Frozen Brine Shrimp, and he took it hastily. So he'll eat both. BrineShrimp will be a weekly reward (or as needed), to ensure he get vitamins and proper nutrition.

I'll be inspecting the tank at nights, for Ampipod population.


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Old 10/13/2015, 07:00 AM   #27
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Some zoas just don't do well, why I have no idea.

I've bought some fruit loops a couple times now, and while everything in my tank is thriving(including several other zoas), this one type always melts away. No matter where I put it. One polyp, several polyps, they always melt away. This is the only one I've come across that I cannot grow in my tank.

The 3 polyp frag I have now of fruit loops is the longest one I've had, going on 2 months now. It originally had 3 polyps, one melted away(thinking, ok here we go again), and now its recovering and growing!!! Currently have 4 polyps, but are still super small and not opening fully.


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Old 10/13/2015, 08:29 AM   #28
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Am I now getting Paranoid about Ampipods?

So I've been watching Ampipod activity after Dark.

Things get pretty active at night. Scary scenes. Ampipod swaming my Acans.

Maybe they are just picking at dead tissue. Maybe not.

Either way, wish that Hawkfish was a night time hunter, since Ampipods are really active at night.

They were running around, while Hawkfish was snoring my my Finger Leather.

I guess this is no such thing as a night time predator for Ampipods?


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Old 10/13/2015, 09:31 AM   #29
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Yeah, I hear you.

My Utter Chaos Zoa is doing great. Multipled 7x. Others just shrivel up and fade.

Weird thing is all Zoa's do good in Sump on Frag Tray (same Water), but not in tank.

It's not lighting, since I put them in very shady areas.

It's not circulation since Sump and Tank are both gentle, but consistant.


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Old 10/13/2015, 11:27 AM   #30
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Not at this point, no night time hunter. Best to get a active hunter like a wrasse that spends all day going through every rock and crevices hunting.

What's the ampipod population in your sump? IF they are a lot there, they might have a lot of food in the sump to not want to bother the Z's and P's.

I think its a combo of light and Ampipods causing your issue. Just my .02 from my experiences.


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Old 10/13/2015, 03:21 PM   #31
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You mean the Hawfish isn't good enough. I actually see him hunting and killing already (daytime).
But sleeps at night like all fish do.

I actually decided last weekend to inspect my sump. Decided to clean it up.
It's (loaded with just live rock) & a skimmer (ie natural filtration), and 2 snails, 1 hermit and a Rock Boring Pencil Urchin, that keep rock scrubbed and porus).

After dumping it out into buckets, and cleaning. Only found 1 dead Ampipod in cleaning buckets. So appears then like Tank better.

At this point, I don't want any more fish (even a wrase). Might not be enough critter to keep 2 alive, and I don't want to feed this tank.

Once I see no more Ampipods, I'll start loaded it with CopePods, and then get Pellet Eating Mandarins from ORA farms. (Coming out in 6 months, according to sales guy).


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Old 10/14/2015, 01:23 AM   #32
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Something wrong is going on. Acan's are dying (at least two).

Amphipods are now on Acan's.

One Amphipod is sitting right on top.

However it could be Acan's is not healthy (notice the bottom part is receeding and Skelton emerging).
But Top Acan (colony fine).

It didn't look like this a week ago. (Are they going after Acan's since all Zoa's removed and in sump).




I have another Acan in the Sump that is also in really bad shape. Thought it died, but it's slowly recovering in Sump Tray.

Could this be the Amphipods, just them picking of Acan die off?

Or is this due to lighting increase (Small 5%)?
But other Acan had no lighting increase prior to collapsing.

I'm puzzled. Something is causing a rapid change in this tank to a Few Corals. No other Corals are reacting this way (YET!!).


(Did the Cheap Zoa's I got bring something into tank). I dipped the new Zoa's all in Revive (Extra Long).



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Old 10/14/2015, 01:25 AM   #33
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Chemistry is fine. Perfect. No recent changes.

I'm afraid to take the Acan out and put in sump to recover. (since if Amphipods, they might go after Last choice for eating)

There is one other Acan that is in perfect condition. Same Level, experienced same light changes.

THIS IS THE PART OF FISH TANKS THAT I HATE (The unknown cause).



Last edited by Wally.B; 10/14/2015 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 10/14/2015, 10:28 AM   #34
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could be something bacterial or some infection, the corals get weak start dying and ampipods finishing off or cleaning up.


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Old 10/14/2015, 10:54 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by 650-IS350 View Post
could be something bacterial or some infection, the corals get weak start dying and ampipods finishing off or cleaning up.
I have two dip solutions that I mostly use for SPS introductions for my SPS tank.

- Two Little Fishes (ReVive)
- API (Melafix)

I'll dip all loose corals (Acan's Zoa's), and it might help. (to save them).

The other Acan (NOW in the sump Frag Tray) was a wreck before taking it out tank (almost nothing but skeleton, and I was going to toss) , but it's puffing very well up and might recover.

Can't hurt.



Last edited by Wally.B; 10/14/2015 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 10/14/2015, 11:14 AM   #36
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One positive note.

I did notice there were less pods out last night. They were around, but not in swarms.

This Afternoon, I had a look at the Hawk fish.
His Belly is slightly swollen full, and I haven't been feeding him. (Must be eating something )
I did test a Tiny bit of Frozen brineshrimp [appetizer], and he readily accepts. (leaves no waste)



Great Fish. Kids like his looks and have named him "Dart", 2nd choice is "Spike". Great personality too. Cute.



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Old 10/14/2015, 03:12 PM   #37
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Just figured out why HawkFish is so Full !!



Kids noticed this and pointed it out to me. Emerald Crab Parts.

I'm ok with this, Emerald crab did his part and cleaned up all the Tough Turf Algae.
Plus he was sitting on top of the damaged Acan yesterday (That's a no-no!)
Should be two more somewhere (they better hide).

I'm sure Hermits will be next, but the few I have are constantly killing my snails and wearing their Shells as Trophies. Rather have snails.



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Old 10/14/2015, 08:21 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally.B View Post

I did offer him some Frozen Brine Shrimp, and he took it hastily. So he'll eat both. BrineShrimp will be a weekly reward (or as needed), to ensure he get vitamins and proper nutrition.
.
so just letting you know since you talk about brine shrimp like they are healthy and all. they are actually only nutritional for 6 hours after they hatch and then they become bad. a brine shrimp has very little to no nutritional value after that 6 hour mark and are commonly refered to as potato chips in comparison to other foods you could be feeding..


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Old 10/14/2015, 09:51 PM   #39
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so just letting you know since you talk about brine shrimp like they are healthy and all. they are actually only nutritional for 6 hours after they hatch and then they become bad. a brine shrimp has very little to no nutritional value after that 6 hour mark and are commonly refered to as potato chips in comparison to other foods you could be feeding..
I'm not feeding him live brine shrimp yet. I make a batch every other week.
I'm feeding him enriched Frozen Brine Shrimp, two kinds (one gut loaded with Spirolina, and another one)

Thanks for the reminder about Live Brine Shrimp. I kind of read about that recently. However I do feed Reef Nutrition PhytoPheast Phytoplankton to my Copepod Farm (for Mandarin), so if I feed my brine shrimps ( after hatching the PhytoFeast), allow them to mature and become semi-adults don't they become nutritious by having their guts loaded with it? Or not? If not then the tiny brine shrimp might be only good for Mandarin, this Hawkfish can eat a whole frozen cube in a few bites. (Just like he polished off my Emerald Crab).


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Old 10/14/2015, 09:58 PM   #40
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So I coming to a hypothesis (It's my Lighting, and then a one-two punch with the Amphipods)

I dipped the dwlinding Acan in both dips, and decide not to put back in tank.

It went into Sump with almost recovered Zoa's.

Just a few hours, under the super low LED Sump Light, and he POPPED back to life. (Dips may have helped).



So my Kessil light is too strong (over 40% for Acan, and Zoa's).
(They get light damaged and along come the Amphipod to pick a the damaged, receding Acan, and possibly same reason for Zoa's.)


Maybe I didn't need the Hawkfish at all. Hey I like him a lot, he's a keeper, and my first on only fish for now.

So I'm going to now have to figure out better Light Senstive Coral placements, and a real slow ramp up test of the Kessil/T5 Lighting. (And figure out the limit). Then try to make the other LPS corals happy too, with more lighting by better Upper Placements.

I learned a lot, and still am learning.

Thanks for everyone's helps.

I'll post more progress on the Zoa's if I manage to get them into my tank and prosper.



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Old 10/14/2015, 10:46 PM   #41
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More Evidence to support "Too Strong Lighting Changes"

So after Acan Recovering, and posting last post it got me thinking to check my LIGHTING history. (Since Chemistry the same in TANK AND SUMP).

Good thing I print off my Lighting Programs from my Apex and hang on wall (since when you make a change, you lose the previous programmings)

When I look at the changes, it's pretty clear what I did.



1) I had to Zoa introduction Problem (Bad Lighting Acclimatization, but had wrong clues at that point)

2) After some playing, and failures, I move Zoa's out into Sump tray, but gain confidence to increase lightings (A)
-----> I turned OFF my Non Dimmable T5, to have better control over Kessil results.

3) Then a week later, with other corals doing better, I increased Photo Period on the Kessil (B)
-----> At this point, I started Burning the Acans
-----> Both the Damaged Zoa's and Acan's were being cleaned up/damaged by Amphipods. (They left healthy Corals Alone, which is normal)

4) Added the Hawkfish for Amphipod Control (no harm , Amphipods could be part of the Zoa, Acan problem, when weak)

5) So the key observation is my lighting changes were 3 factors
--------> i) Too quick Ramp up on both Kessil (Intensity)
--------> ii) Added Photo Period to Kessil, but remove some T5's
--------> ii) But another KEY factor was a short kessil Intensity spike (1hour at 60%) which wasn't long, but gave the Acans a short before bedtime burn .
-------------------> THIS Short Burn put the Zoa's and Acans into recoil, allowing Amphipods to damage at night
-------------------> They recovered a bit each day, when Aphipods were gone, and light back to lower levels
-------------------> But each day got weaker and weaker over time.
So at least I now have a plan to restore corals health, and do a proper introduction on Lighting (at point (C) right now) .

No Harm having less Amphipod, since they are the extra Damage Crew.

The hope is that with slow Aclimatization, the other Zoa's should do just a well as my Utter Chaos Zoa.
( Zoa which was expensive so I really acclimatzed very slowly, [not by lighting changes, but by placement]).

** NEW APPROACH with be combined: **
-------> Low Placement, Shaded. Then gradually move into permanent locations.
-------> Slowly Find Light Intensity Limits (kessil, T5's)
-------> Then stretch out a increase on PhotoPeriod


There is a good chance if healthy the other Zoa's won't be attacked by any remaining Amphipods. (will be less with Hawkfish anyway)

Another lesson learned in this wonderful challenging hobby.

(All common sense stuff, but easy to get sidetracked with incorrect assumptions, or double causes.)

At least I hope I got it figured out.



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Old 10/23/2015, 01:35 AM   #42
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Amphipods are not the problem. They are one of the best cleaners in your tank. They are only doing their job. They clean all the little garbage out that settles in and around your corals. Do they irritate them? Yes a little. I watched that coral eating amphipod video someone posted. lol. It's not attacking those polyps. It's doing a great job cleaning up around it. Tomorrow that polyp will be 110% better and loving life.

Flow is very important for zoas. The fact that you have pods all over them, tells me that the flow is a little slow and detritus is most likely settling in or around the polyps. Also any crabs walking over them will cause them to close temporarily. I know you say both sump and tank have gentle flow, but everyones opinion of flow strength is different, and the smallest change in flow can be a real game changer.

I know a thing or 2 about par and watch par closely in my tank. I also run only leds. The par your at is perfect when getting 100 or so near the bottom. A little more would be better I get about 140 or so at 27" down. The length of time your running could be a problem. your corals usable photo period is only about 6 hrs. I would suggest keeping your highest setting at 6 hours, and ramping down and up aggressively at each end of that 6 hours. I generally cut it down by 30 to 40% each hour after until close to nothing. Anything more than that is just fueling algae.

Also, there are certain parameters that can effect certain types of coral, but not others. Including tin, iron, zinc, and copper. Not really any good hobbiest kits to test those with, but a triton test could reveal something you'd never thought of. One last thing, chemiclean helps zoas quite a bit and I've used it as a dip very successfully for ailing zoas. Especially if you have any that are closed for long periods and turn brown, which is a sign of bacterial infection.

Good luck, I hope something in there helps you out.


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Old 10/23/2015, 08:29 AM   #43
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Amphipods are not the problem.... .
Great info. Many thanks.

I have considered the Triton test, and maybe it's time. This is a 15 year old tank so there could be all kinds of build up in the rocks. Back in 2005 this tank and rocks got infused with Copper from a Kent Carbon contamination and crashed (wiping out most corals, and All inverts in 24hrs (biggest loss was my 7 year old prized Clam). Zero copper on standard test kits (after rebuild), but a full Triton test could identify more (things) accurately.

Things are getting better, since my back off on lighting. Ramping up REALLY slowly this time, and Managed to get one of the ailing Zoa's back to health (in sump), and introduced it to the tank. Best result so far (target tank height but shaded).

I think the flow is fine, since all good corals love it. Even my Utter Chaos Zoa is flourishing really well recently. (Stretching a bit since lighting was dropped. I'll catch up soon on lighting intensity).

You may be correct on the Amphipods, they never attacked any healthy corals.

No harm with adding the Long Nose Hawkfish. He's really cool and already eating Frozen food from my hand.

** One observation based on your comment: (You may be DEAD ON my issue ) [TOO LONG PHOTOPERIOD (Highest Light Setting) ] **
** I noticed the Zoa's, and especially the Acans. They perk up when lights come on (for a while, few hours), the then pooch out **
** I always wondered, why Acan's don't stay open all day and into night, and loose chance to feed at night being scrunched up **
** GOING to reduced the Main Light Photo Period **


Thanks again.



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Old 10/23/2015, 06:30 PM   #44
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Triggreef Thanks for the PhotoSoak Limit TIP

You may be very correct (Some Corals can't handle the longer PhotoPeriod). Bit to early to say, we'll see in a few days.

At this point before. Zoa's would be shrivelled, and Acan starting to close up.

The one Zoa I put in is staying open, and Acan's look like they wil make it open for the night.

Very cool. Actually Amazing, since the future could be bright . Full Tray of Zoa's waiting in the sump.





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Old 11/09/2015, 05:22 PM   #45
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check late at night also and look for nudi's. also those euphilia might be reaching out at night and swiping them as well


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Old 11/10/2015, 12:26 PM   #46
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I have looked over the years (Overnight). They don't reach out that far.

You would think they would hit the Palsy's before reach any below.


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Old 11/10/2015, 02:48 PM   #47
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every tank has those few zoas they can't keep for whatever reason, for me its red hornets and utter chaos, all other hornets do very well and many other high end palys just can't keep those 2 for the life of me, no real reason why they melt they just do


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Old 11/11/2015, 01:17 AM   #48
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every tank has those few zoas they can't keep for whatever reason, for me its red hornets and utter chaos, all other hornets do very well and many other high end palys just can't keep those 2 for the life of me, no real reason why they melt they just do
Thanks. That makes me feel a bit better.

I feel lucky that my Utter Chaos's are doing Super great. Couple others doing so-so. Others melting away like yours.

So it's trial and error.

Bad part is this limits my will to buy expensive Zoa's for now (as nice as they are).


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Old 12/16/2015, 10:47 PM   #49
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ALL Zoa's Doing Great now. (Must have been Ampipods)

I know there are folks that believe or disbelieve that Ampipods can damage Zoanthinds.

We'll I'm a believer that they DO!!

As per this thread, I got that Hawkfish, and he's continued to be fat. I sparingly feed him a few flakes since he begs, but that's it.

I know he's been cleaning my tank from Ampipods since I did inspect at nighttime with a Flashlight. There are NONE TO BE SEEN anymore (NOT EVEN ONE). There used to be swarms.

And now it's been a couple of week that my Zoa's have been doing well. I added a few new ones ,and they are also doing great. Before they would close up almost instantly, and I would see swarms of Amphipods on them.

Here is what the Zoa's look like now.



- I haven't changed lighting SIGNIFICANTLY (Slightly lower intensity, slightly lower photoperiod... but working up quickly with new confidence. Not much effort for new Intro Aclimitazation. Just placed low down)
- I have Zoas various locations (just like before when I had problems)
- I don't feed them any different than before.

I'm a firm believer in Amphipods Irritating and destroying Zoa's.
I could be wrong. If wrong, then what changed?

- At this point, I'm slowly increasing lighting to reach Target Levels (Frogspawn need more light as seen in Tank Photo)
- Then I'll be moving the pods onto the rockwork to start the Zoa Gardens.
- If all continues well, I may get a few quality Zoa's since these were all cheap $5/$10 on/sale pods.




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Old 12/16/2015, 11:14 PM   #50
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Zoa color has improved quite a bit!



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