Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 01/25/2016, 09:56 PM   #1
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Post Saltmix Parameters bring on the test results

There was an excellent thread put together quite some time ago now by Billybeau1
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505

I've referred to it may times to see if someone is close to the expected values of a particular saltmix. There can of course be slight variations and if any settling has occurred in the mix before use can cause results to be even farther from the normal numbers.

There's threads all the time with people testing their new salt mix but seems like its always when there's possibly a problem with it.

I'd like this to be a thread of new batches of salt mix tested when there aren't any problems. Get a good array of tests done on different brands. Then compare each one against the original synthetic saltmix parameters thread and compile a set of averages for a particular brand and compare.

Just basics like temp, salinity, alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium. Or at subset of those three but I think temp and salinity level should be published with all the posts. Giving what was used for the testing would be nice too.

Something simple like
Brand:
Temp:
Salinity:

Alkalinity:
Calcium:
Magnesium:


My tests done tonight from my New Salt mix brute.

Brand: Instant Ocean (IO) nothing added
Temp: 77.2 (Hanna handheld meter)
Salinity: 53mS pinpoint probe and 35ppt veegee refractometer

Alk:10.4dkh Salifert
Ca: 410 ppm Salifert
Mg: 1320ppm Salifert


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/26/2016, 01:31 AM   #2
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,852
This should be interesting. I've thought about doing another study like the older one, but I've been too busy.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01/26/2016, 04:40 AM   #3
Member No. 1
Ver. 2.0
 
Member No. 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Rehoboth, MA
Posts: 1,114
I'm in. Next mix I'll post. As you I use IO nothing added. Curious to compare results.


__________________
Pete
"I never make mistakes...
I thought I did once, but I was wrong"

Current Tank Info: 80 Gallon SPS BB "Old School" - MH 2 250W DE with 54W T5 True Actinic, SRO2000 Skimmer, Advance Reef Technologies K2R CA Reactor into a DIY second chamber, Precision Marine Kalk Reactor, Apex Controller, Litermeter Dozer, MP40 QD
Member No. 1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/26/2016, 04:43 AM   #4
downbeach
Registered Member
 
downbeach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Smyrna, Delaware
Posts: 3,779
To make this as accurate as possible, It wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure the dry salt mix has been thoroughly mixed before using, to eliminat any possible elemental stratification that may have occurred during shipping.
Make sure you're adding the mix to the RO/DI water, and not the water to the mix. Allow the ASW to mix for at least 4 hours before taking any measurements, to ensure a good mix.
Use a properly calibrated salinity measuring device, i.e. Refractometer calibrated with a 35ppt solution, not RO/DI or distilled water, or a probe calibrated with a 53mS solution. If using another type of device, make a note of it.
What kits were used to measure the Ca, Mg and Alk.


downbeach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/26/2016, 07:39 AM   #5
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
I agree all that would be nice and bring temp before testing up to around 77F or 25C


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/26/2016, 03:44 PM   #6
Mark426
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 2,492
Brand: Tropic Marin Sea Salt (NOT Pro)
Temp: 77.8 (Lab Grade Thermometer)
Salinity: 35 ppt 1.026 (Calibrated Refractometer)

Alk: 9.5 dkh Salifert
Ca: 430 ppm Salifert
Mg:1240 ppm Salifert

Salifert results are average of 3 consecutive tests. Fairly consistent results with the last 3 buckets of Tropic Marin Sea Salt. Mg is less than I like but I bump up MG to 1300-1325 prior adding it to tank.


Mark426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/26/2016, 09:33 PM   #7
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
That's perfect thanks!


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 05:34 AM   #8
Xxero
Registered Member
 
Xxero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 976
Brand: Instant Ocean Reef Crystals
Temp: 78 (glass thermometer)
SG: 1.026 (35 ppt refractometer)

Alk: 15 dkh (tested 3 times with Red Sea Marine Care Test Kit)
Ca: 440 ppm (Red Sea Calcium Pro Test Kit)
Mag: 1240 ppm (Red Sea Magnesium Pro Test Kit)

IO Reef Crystals mixed with RO/DI and circulated for 24 hours.


__________________
"You Can Lead A Gift Horse To Water...
But You Can't Make Him Look In Your Mouth."

Current Tank Info: 65g Mixed Reef Display - 15g Macro Algae/Refugium - 40b Sump
Xxero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 07:17 AM   #9
royvoss
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: nj
Posts: 518
Brand: esv
Temp: 77
Salinity: 1.026 refactor

Alkalinity: 9.0 dkh hanna
Calcium: 450 hanna/lamott/salifert all three are close perfer the hanna
Magnesium:1400 salifert

there used to a be a sticky around here with all the brands and specs listed not sure were i saw it.


royvoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 07:47 AM   #10
shifty51008
12-5 Chiefs record
 
shifty51008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NW Iowa
Posts: 10,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by royvoss View Post
Brand: esv
Temp: 77
Salinity: 1.026 refactor

Alkalinity: 9.0 dkh hanna
Calcium: 450 hanna/lamott/salifert all three are close perfer the hanna
Magnesium:1400 salifert

there used to a be a sticky around here with all the brands and specs listed not sure were i saw it.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1714505
that what your talking about?


__________________
75 gal. mixed DT, 100 gal. sump, 50 gal. fuge,

Clownfish breeder
shifty51008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 01:19 PM   #11
Mark426
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 2,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xxero View Post
Brand: Instant Ocean Reef Crystals
Temp: 78 (glass thermometer)
SG: 1.026 (35 ppt refractometer)

Alk: 15 dkh (tested 3 times with Red Sea Marine Care Test Kit)



Mark426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 01:28 PM   #12
royvoss
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: nj
Posts: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifty51008 View Post
yup, that be it


royvoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 01:30 PM   #13
royvoss
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: nj
Posts: 518
except esv salt mix needs to be added to the list, there may be other too


royvoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 01:39 PM   #14
Mark426
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 2,492
That list is far from accurate anymore. The composition of most of these salts has been changed many times since then. Very rough guide at best.


Mark426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/30/2016, 03:26 PM   #15
Xxero
Registered Member
 
Xxero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark426 View Post
I know! That's why I tested it 3 times.

Makes sense to me though because my alkalinity always reads way high in my tank water.


__________________
"You Can Lead A Gift Horse To Water...
But You Can't Make Him Look In Your Mouth."

Current Tank Info: 65g Mixed Reef Display - 15g Macro Algae/Refugium - 40b Sump
Xxero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/01/2016, 09:45 AM   #16
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by royvoss View Post

....

there used to a be a sticky around here with all the brands and specs listed not sure were i saw it.
Yep, it's the link in the first post of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by royvoss View Post
except esv salt mix needs to be added to the list, there may be other too
That's what this thread is for. Get it updated with new salts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark426 View Post
That list is far from accurate anymore. The composition of most of these salts has been changed many times since then. Very rough guide at best.
or different parameters. It still is a good reference as many salts if changed haven't changed that much. But we will see what the average pulls over time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xxero View Post
I know! That's why I tested it 3 times.

Makes sense to me though because my alkalinity always reads way high in my tank water.
RC is known to have fairly high Alk. That number doesn't surprise me. Good if you find Calcium and Alk is depleted at a high rate and reduces the need to dose those two as much or at all.


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/02/2016, 10:55 AM   #17
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
So, any new updates or additions I'll be adding to a spreadsheet. Anyone that doesn't want to post in this thread can always PM me results. And yes this is just for a rough idea of what could be expected from a particular salt mix.


Attached Files
File Type: xls ASW_Saltwater_Parameters.xlsx.xls (46.0 KB, 132 views)
__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/19/2016, 04:05 PM   #18
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Going to start testing myself one brand at a time. Like one a month. Probably starting soonish. Anyone else like to add their results please feel free to post here or PM me.


And I guess I could link here to the test kit reviews I've done and recommend.
API and Salifert Calcium and Alkalinity tests kits
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1927189

A Nitrate Test kit shootout between NYOS, Salifert, RedSea Pro, and API
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2538789

A PO4 test kit shootout between Nyos, Elos Pro, Salifert, Hanna Checkers x2, and Seachem.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2540702

Me vs. Triton
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2537234

All the Above along with AWT vs. Triton which also includes another follow up Triton test
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24141851

The final Big 3 Shootout Alk, Ca, Mg: RedSea, Nyos, Elos, Salifert, API, Hanna, Triton, AWT
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24321203


to get started:






__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank

Last edited by jason2459; 02/19/2016 at 04:14 PM.
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/04/2016, 11:55 AM   #19
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Need to get this thread updated. The past week I've been nailing down procedures to be able to consistently be able to test various brands of salt.

I started with this concept


Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2459 View Post


I'm getting this ready to start testing a bunch of saltmix brands. I guess kind of like a saltmix shootout.


1000ml class b graduated cylinder



Hydor Pico pump to mix and pulls from the bottom



Just to check and adjust temp a super cheap digital thermometer but has always been consistent. I remember it being ever so slightly high. Double checked to night with a quick ice water test.





And I'll be targeting 25C. As from late fall to early spring my house is around 65-68F. But late spring to early fall could be around 80F. I figured 77F/25C is a good middle ground I can easily adjust to.

And a super easy way for me to adjust temp hotter or colder.... My kitchen sink. I just filled it with warmer water. In hotter temps I'll fill it with colder water.



Then I'll use my pin point salinity probe to monitor when I hit the desired levels of 35ppt or 1.0264. And use my veegee refractometer as a cross check as well. I'll calibrate or at least check both for calibration before hand.

I figure I'll try and calculate what the manufacturer suggests to get to that salinity level in 1000ml and make note of how much was actually needed or if it exactly as indicated.

Then I will test for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium using Salifert kits.

But 1L proved to be to small a volume. So, moved up to 2 gallons and that seems to have done it.

My process going forward will be to check for calibration or calibrate if required both my veegee/vitalsine refractometer and pin point salinity probe.

Bring 2 gallons of RODI water up to 25C

Place in pin point probe and Pico pump

Thoroughly mix the dry salt mix.

Slowly add in salt over 1 hour period to 35ppt. Mix dry salt between 1/4 cup scoops.

Once 35ppt is reached wait 45 minutes.

Take Alkalinity, Calcium, and Mg Tests all with Salifert kits.

IO over several tests using that procedure has tested very consistent to

Alkalinity: 10.9-11.2
Calcium: 405-410
Mg: ~1275



This is from 1 bag. There can be variations from bag to bag of course but I would feel comfortable saying the 2009 results are still correct for at least IO. I have also sent a sample off to Triton to cross check my results.

I would also say it's safe to say one can expect IO mixed to 35ppt to get around
Alk: 11dKH
Calcium: 400
Mg: 1300


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/04/2016, 03:51 PM   #20
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
So far this is the data I've collected on IO

Instant Ocean

9/30/2009 400 11 1350

1/25/2016 410 10.4 1320

8/24/2016 409.4 NA 1351

3/2/2016 405 10.9 1275

3/3/2016 410 11.2 1275



AVG 406.88 10.88 1314.20


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/07/2016, 08:21 PM   #21
cougareyes
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 713
It cracks me up when people think the salt mix is like cake batter and need to mix up the dry salt mix, like you could really could mix up separated elements equally. All the salt mix I've ever used started out as a liquid; whether natural, synthetic, or enhanced. Then it is evaporated which makes each granular a complete saltwater chain, the elements do not separate. If you purchase salt mix that is of separate elements you would have to mix the entire batch for it to usable. Anyone that gives you information about rolling a bucket around or shaking up the salt mix to mix is just to cover up poor quality control. Most of the time we add to the inconsistency and precipitation by the way we mix and test our own water.


cougareyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/07/2016, 08:35 PM   #22
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by cougareyes View Post
It cracks me up when people think the salt mix is like cake batter and need to mix up the dry salt mix, like you could really could mix up separated elements equally. All the salt mix I've ever used started out as a liquid; whether natural, synthetic, or enhanced. Then it is evaporated which makes each granular a complete saltwater chain, the elements do not separate. If you purchase salt mix that is of separate elements you would have to mix the entire batch for it to usable. Anyone that gives you information about rolling a bucket around or shaking up the salt mix to mix is just to cover up poor quality control. Most of the time we add to the inconsistency and precipitation by the way we mix and test our own water.
Sorry, but that is wrong. Salt that is gathered through drying is not complete. Saltmixes that we buy is added to and attempts to meet some kind of objective. Some are to meet natural saltwater parameters. Some for corals. Etc. Which is why most all saltmix brands we buy vary from one another on one and often way more then one element.

And yes, stratification can, has, and does occur.


Here's a start for something to read.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/07/2016, 08:54 PM   #23
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,852
The salt products we use are based on evaporated saltwater, in some sense, but that's probably limited to the NaCl component. The rest probably comes as separate ingredients or as contaminants. Drying saltwater converts a lot of the calcium and carbonate or bicarbonate into sand. The sand won't redissolve, so there would be no carbonate alkalinity in dried saltwater.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03/07/2016, 09:08 PM   #24
cougareyes
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 713
oh I forgot how many real chemist and biologist are on this board, I still find it funny how you think you are going to shake a bucket and evenly mix all the elements.


cougareyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/07/2016, 09:13 PM   #25
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by cougareyes View Post
oh I forgot how many real chemist and biologist are on this board, I still find it funny how you think you are going to shake a bucket and evenly mix all the elements.
Would you care to troll another board then?


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:38 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014