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Old 07/27/2017, 09:30 AM   #601
karimwassef
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If the concern in N and P, I'm not worried. The design should work all that out. My only fears are pollution .. metals, chemicals

The blocks are holding up 400gallons ~ 3500lbs so I would be worried about weakening them with etching?


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Old 09/02/2017, 08:54 PM   #602
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Wanted to share part of my inspiration - here's a 3D video of snorkeling in Akumal Bay, Cancun.

You can look all around by swiping in the video up/down/left/right - or you can use the controller in the top left hand side.

Reef starts about 5 minutes in - Took a while to get there and my camera didn't have an external on/off :P



Love vacationing in the Caribbean


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Old 09/10/2017, 08:03 PM   #603
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Karim,

It's been a while and you have changed a lot over the past few months with the vacuum surges and ATS pastures. Could you walk us through your design with pictures, or even take another video of it? The last one really helped me understand your system.


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Old 09/10/2017, 11:55 PM   #604
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sure. I've been working on the 1:3 scale model actually. That should make it simpler to see.

I'll make a video walking through the construction too. I had to rewind back to the property lines.

The first step is actually to buy or rent a trencher.

I need to run power and water lines (maybe even gas) from the garage to the right location under the slab (to be poured later). I also plan on having two floor drains - one in the sunroom and the other in the backroom.

Then I need to dig out the trenches for the underground cooling lines. One set for water and the other for air cooling.

Once the plumbing and wiring is in place, the slab gets poured. I still can't get a bid under $12K, but I'm working on it. It'll be 1000 sqft - might even double as a pool house... LOL

I've decided to use a pre-fab steel garage construction for the greenhouse itself. It'll be 12' high at the sides. 15' at the peak. The glass will be 3/16" tempered glass and I'm working on how to silicone the 2' x 4' panels onto the steel frame. Sourcing that much tempered glass is also difficult. I need over 1000 sqft...

The video will make it easier to visualize. Here's a few views of the construction plan (overall tank is 12' x 8'):

 photo 0_zpsoq0hdqhx.jpg

 photo 1_zpsdljszdex.jpg

 photo 2_zpsxkvctint.jpg

 photo 3_zpshv8n8xi7.jpg

 photo 4_zpsczzcyccw.jpg

 photo 5_zpsba8i7iff.jpg

The scale model is cute.. might make it into a mini-frag tank or quarantine maybe later...

 photo 0_zpsf3muddin.jpg


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Old 09/11/2017, 12:18 AM   #605
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I can get all the wood I need from 3 plywood sheets ~ $25 each

 photo 1_zpsjc4jmsri.jpg

All the glass is 1/4" and I can get it all out of a single 4'x5' sheet.

I can use storage containers for the sump and surges... except for the overflow, the in-tank surge and the powerhead director. Those will have to be acrylic builds or maybe 3D printer-made since the sizing may be too small for me to hand assemble.

The tiny cinderblocks I'll have to make myself! Might 3D print the molds.
but I have to make some custom shaped concrete anyway, so I'll be using GFRC for that... good chance to experiment.

The piping scales into 1" and 3/4" nicely.

I'm working on a formula to increase the viscosity of the water to make the scale model better at predicting the flow. I need 3x the dynamic viscosity, so I'm looking at using starch or other chemicals to do that.

I have the rest of the equipment more or less.


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Old 09/14/2017, 02:20 AM   #606
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hope this helps




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Old 09/14/2017, 01:00 PM   #607
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Yes, that helps a lot. A few things now:

You will want to look into if your neighbors can block light to the tank in the future. Not likely, but something to consider.

So as I understand it, all water from the DT goes to the settling filter, and then to either the white sump (dirty water) or black sump (clear water). Water is then pumped up to the refugium, which then drains water into the two tall cylinder tanks below it. These tanks can then be actuated to act as surges into the DT. You have powerhead grids to provide some uniform flow through the DT as well.

Now what I don't understand: Do you have a normal return, or is all the return through the surges? If so, where does it come from? I am assuming the vacuums come into play for the vertical algae scrubber pastures? How do those work? In the CAD there doesn't seem to be anything connected to the vertical tanks?


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Old 09/14/2017, 02:21 PM   #608
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I did include the entire neighborhood in the shadow mapping. Where there were empty lots, I assume the largest tallest house that can be built.

I actually did that before agreeing to the lot.


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Old 09/14/2017, 02:37 PM   #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wertoiuy View Post
So as I understand it, all water from the DT goes to the settling filter, and then to either the white sump (dirty water) or black sump (clear water). Water is then pumped up to the refugium, which then drains water into the two tall cylinder tanks below it. These tanks can then be actuated to act as surges into the DT. You have powerhead grids to provide some uniform flow through the DT as well.
No.

The external loop goes like this:
DT > overflow > sump-run > settling tank > clear sump >pumps> raised fuge surge > DT

The settling tank will feed the dirty sump but that's connected back later. It's not part of the main flow.

The two large tanks under the raised fuge surge are opened to the water channels under ground. The two surge scrubber tanks over the DT are connected to the reef channels. These four tanks exchange water creating surge and anti-surge flow that is completely separate from the circulating loop above. There are no valves or actuators to the water connections. All actuation is at the air and vacuum lines over the tanks.

The powerheads are a separate third loop of flow. These create circulating clockwise and counter clockwise around the overflow going through the sealed water section in the back (with the cinderblock). This is independent of the external loop and the surge flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wertoiuy View Post
Now what I don't understand: Do you have a normal return, or is all the return through the surges? If so, where does it come from? I am assuming the vacuums come into play for the vertical algae scrubber pastures? How do those work? In the CAD there doesn't seem to be anything connected to the vertical tanks?
All the return is gravity fed back into the tank. That doesn't mean it's a surge. The return lines have valves that limit flow to create a steady return or open wide to create a surge. My intent is to have the 6 actuators connected to the level sensor in the fuge so that the flow is gradual but less than the refill rate by the pumps. Above a threshold, the gradual flow turns to surge to bring the fuge back down and restart the fill. Think of it as a very leaky surge. The external loop has no vacuums. All actuators are water valves.

The surge tanks have open channels to the water. All actuators are air/vacuum to pull water up or release it. The in-tank surges double as tanks that fish can swim up into to feed on the algae there.

I'm big on redundancy. The external loop has multiple pumps and multiple valves with emergency passive pipes.

The three loops are separate so if any one fails, the others will continue to work.
So if the vacuums fail, the powerheads and external loop work.


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Old 09/14/2017, 02:40 PM   #610
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Another point is that the return pipes will be submerged so I plan to encase them in concrete and create floating rockwork out of the pipes. I plan to feed through the gravity lines so food will literally come out of the rock.... There will also be passive PVC core concrete rocks. These are hollow to promote internal sponges.


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Old 09/14/2017, 02:51 PM   #611
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One more. The fuge is ~300 gals and is a ghost shrimp "breeding farm".

I'm thinking 1000 shrimp to keep the planktonic babies coming.


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Old 09/14/2017, 02:52 PM   #612
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Oh thanks for viewing my video by the way!


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Old 09/14/2017, 05:35 PM   #613
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great video, very interesting. During your water test of the initial tank structure for several weeks, perhaps consider a large water flow device (maybe even a small outboard motor??) to test seals? You are going to have a ton of flow and I am guessing that the static stress on each joint may pale in comparison to the dynamic stresses that they will see.

keep up the progress, solid plan, very complex, are you the type to spend a lot of time on maintenance?

One area of possible but minor concern may be light spillage causing biofouling on surfaces intended to be clear or clean. Many folks run into this in their sumps with a skimmer beside the refugium (skimmer grows algae/other inside due to light spillage from the fuge).


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Old 09/14/2017, 05:45 PM   #614
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Thank! . Where would the light spillage go? Everything in the sunroom is intended to be lit except for the underground channel that are covered by plywood.

There's no light spillage in the back room since there's no light except for the two top panel immediately over the fuge.


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Old 09/14/2017, 05:49 PM   #615
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Actually, all the high flow is down the length of the tank and will reach a null against the far wall. Basically, the flow always goes in a loop and shouldn't crash into the tank walls.

I'm building the scale model to confirm this.

For example, when the surge-scrubber feeder on the right releases 300 gals, the reciprocal one on the left will "sink" the exact same volume. So, water will flow into one and out the other in a loop. Actually, I suspect that a large positive wave will likely go down the right side and a large negative wave will go down the left side. When they get to the far wall, they cancel and the big positive wave is swallowed by the big negative wave.

The underground channel surges (UCS?) can also reciprocate with the surge-scrubber-feeder (SSF?). So, when the two surges on top release together (left and right), the two underground will "sink" the exact same volume creating a loop between the reef and the hidden channels. Or vice versa.

The powerheads are also set up to only create current loops.

The fuge-surge-return (FSR) will be benign compared to the others but I've made the overflow variable height so it can compensate. In case of a big surge return, the overflow chamber preemptively lowers to sink the volume in sync...

It'll also double as a slow tidal event ~ 3".


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Old 09/14/2017, 05:58 PM   #616
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I'm not big on maintenance. My current tank will attest to my negligence. The reality is that while the system looks complex, it should be very resilient to negligence.


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Old 09/14/2017, 06:21 PM   #617
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Alright, I have watched the flow systems part of the video now (Twice! What a magnificently complicated setup) and I understand it now. (I think)

How is the dirty sump connected? Does it feed into the separate greenhouse for mangroves and other saltwater plants, or is that not connected to this system at all?

I love the idea of the dark, underwater areas. I don't know much about the biology and life of these zones, so it will be interesting to see what comes of it. I read about using a dark area for sponge filtration once, but there it was recommended to be low flow. Is this not that, since you have the external surges connected to it?

One thing to consider for the dark zone is: If it is dark, how to you plan to be able to observe the life down there? Light from the room when you open the viewing doors? Would this bother the life? Maybe you could install red LEDs rated for use underwater, sort of like people do to view bats: the red wouldn't bother them much.


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Old 09/14/2017, 07:31 PM   #618
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the dirty sump is a detritus collection and water change sump. Note that I don't think detritus is bad! I think it's great stuff, but it needs to be "pooled" to be a more effective food source.


There are several pumps here. One pump connects up into the fuge to feed the shrimp and flow back into the display. Another one connects to the external plants and solar scrubber. A third pump connects to the raised saltwater reservoir that I use to run one of the faucets. This is basically for washing with saltwater as needed.

For water changes, a valve closes the pipe to the settling tank and a pump purges 250 gallons (~half) down the drain in one of the sinks. An actuated valve on a pipe from the RODI opens and releases freshwater into this secondary sump. I still haven't worked out the solid salt dispenser (screw?) but that releases enough salt to mix up 250 gallons. A mixing pump runs for an hour. Once done, the valves open and a refresh pump exchanges the clean water into the system... then goes back into standby mode.

I might actually change the raised saltwater reservoir to a second RODI to allow me to do 500 gallons at once. The point is that the system allows me to run an automated water change on demand.

If I do change the raise reservoir to a second RODI, I'll run a direct line to a pump to deliver saltwater from the dirty tank to the saltwater faucet.

The dirty sump can also double as a very large quarantine since it is easily disconnected from the main loop.


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Old 09/14/2017, 07:31 PM   #619
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I don't think it's complicated. It's just made up of several systems that are actually pretty straight forward on their own... well, I think so.


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Old 09/14/2017, 11:47 PM   #620
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Speaking from experience, rent the trencher. It's typically a one-time job.


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Old 09/15/2017, 12:39 AM   #621
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Need more than a trencher. I need a backhoe.

A cheap chinese non-powered backhoe from Harbor Freight is $2.7K ~ 8ft reach

https://www.harborfreight.com/9-hp-t...hoe-62365.html

Renting a full power backhoe for a couple of days is $720 for the same reach

https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equip...ft-dig-depth/#

Why rent for a week? because I don't know how to use one and I expect it'll take me some time to learn

Thanks for the input - this project requires a lot of different skills (most of which I'm still developing), so I appreciate any experienced input.


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Old 09/15/2017, 08:21 AM   #622
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Still working the costs... Not on track to bring this in under $50K.

here's where the bids are coming in
$12,000 Slab
$15,000 Steel frame (https://www.versatube.com/design-your-own/?id=153475)
$4,000 Tempered glass for sunroom
$6,000 Aquarium Glass
$1,000 Powerheads Jebao 16
$700 Backroom surge tanks 2 (https://www.ntotank.com/325gallon-ac...-tank-x8666939)
$300 Settling tank (https://www.ntotank.com/400gallon-cr...-tank-x6907055)
$500 Dirty sump (https://www.ntotank.com/625gallon-ac...-tank-x9873974)
$900 Clean sump (https://www.ntotank.com/1300gallon-n...-tank-x8829122)
$400 Raise RODI reservoirs x 2 (https://www.ntotank.com/210gallon-ac...-tank-x7576884)
$200 Vacuums 3
$200 Sinks 3 (https://www.amazon.com/Mustee-28F-Ut.../dp/B00E82WV8K & one on hand)
$200 Sunroom fans

That's $41.6K so far... !

Here are the other reef items still being "budgeted" ~ $12K:
Wood base ~ TBD est ~ $1000
Epoxy ~ TBD est ~$800
Plumbing ~ TBD (some already on hand) est ~$1000
Cinderblock and Concrete GFRC ~ TBD est ~$1000
Acrylic overflow ~ TBD $200
Acrylic covers ~ TBD $200
Acrylic powerhead box ~ TBD $200
Acrylic surge-scrubber-feeders ~ TBD $500
Acrylic sump-run ~ TBD est $100
Actuated valves 2" ~ TBD est $50 each
Delivery charges for plastic tanks ~ TBD $1000
Back room wood frame for raised tanks ~ TBD est $1000
Acrylic surge tank ~ TBD est $400
Sand & Rocks ~ TBD est $2000
External ATS & Plants ~ TBD est $1000
UV LED Lights ~ TBD est $1000
Phyto ~ TBD $50

And the sunroom items ~$11K+
Digging and plumbing the water, electric and gas ~ TBD $500
Digging and plumbing the underground heat exchangers ~ TBD $200
Walkway concrete ~ TBD $1000
Backup HVAC ~ TBD $4000
Backup cooling tower ~ TBD $500
Backup solar panels ~ TBD ~~~~
Backup batteries & charging ~ TBD ~~~~
Back room wood frame & Hardiebacker ~ TBD est ~ $2000
Sunroom wood floor ~ $1000
Sunroom actuated platform ~ $1000
Covered walkway ~ $1000

And some stuff I already have:
Generator ~ On hand
Chiller ~ On hand
APEX ~ On hand
Eggcrate & Plumbing ~ On hand
Air injector ~ On hand
Kalkwasser ~ On hand
Fuge ~ On hand
Level sensors ~ On hand
Pumps ~ On hand
Quarantine tanks ~ On hand

I think I need a gofundme account like the what the King of DIY Aquariums did. LOL!


IMO - My video is "cooler" - but I'm not putting myself out there in person yet.



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Old 09/15/2017, 08:24 AM   #623
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any ideas on cost controls without losing functionality?


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Old 09/15/2017, 10:49 AM   #624
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one mistake I made with my current tank was having too much rock which is now constraining my corals. The coral density forces them out of the surface and pushing/killing each other.

So - I'm working out a coral packing density and rockwork plan...

 photo 0_zpsk1c8gxrq.jpg

pink rock = has return flow inside it to pump out against other rockwork
grey rock = hollow concrete

 photo 1_zpsaicykcko.jpg

This is why I'm doing it.. I suspected that a lot of work wasn't going to be doing any good - need to simplify

 photo 2_zpst9tyhtfn.jpg

I think there may be a geometric solution for packing density here...

and this is why I need this much flow... the water has to get through that...

 photo 3_zpsbb0yfcj3.jpg


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Old 09/15/2017, 10:50 AM   #625
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oh.. the bottom 3" is sand, so some of the branches will be raised, but look like they're sitting in the sand.


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