About to ditch ZEOvit!

[malx]

Hi, Everyone.

So, about to ditch ZEOvit and anything else I can on my tank that's excessive. I thought I fixed my STN problem from a few months ago, added a bunch of corals and SURPRISE, I got f_____ked.

What I want to know from everyone is..
1: Show me your minimalistic SPS tanks that have good growth.
2: Tell me about your system.

I'm going to be pulling all that I can that's un-needed in hopes that I can end up with a very simple system that will grow acropora.

For those of you who want to know about my STN issue and the history of that, you can see the post here: http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36020

Thanks for looking
Joey

[swk]

All I use is a skimmer and calcium reactor. No carbon or gfo. No carbon dosing.

I change water every month and supplement iodine weekly.



These are a year apart and was BY FAR the worst year of the tanks life. There were 2 occasions where toxic material was introduced and the tank almost crashed a couple of times. On its best day alk demand was decimated and color was crap. Finally after about a year of water changes things have settled down and have really hit a groove.

[jda]

I don't have any pictures, but I have been minimalistic for years...

• return pump
• CaRx
• skimmer
• heaters on Ranco
• metal halides
• Tunze Pump & Wavebox
• routine water changes with home-brew IO
• real live rock and 3 inch sandbed that denitrifies on it's own

No apex. No dosing. No ATO - don't trust them. No dusk/dawn. Most of all, no equipment or method that is less than five years old in reliability -been burned.

[malx]

Thanks for the tips guys.

[malx]

Originally Posted by swk

All I use is a skimmer and calcium reactor. No carbon or gfo. No carbon dosing.

I change water every month and supplement iodine weekly.



These are a year apart and was BY FAR the worst year of the tanks life. There were 2 occasions where toxic material was introduced and the tank almost crashed a couple of times. On its best day alk demand was decimated and color was crap. Finally after about a year of water changes things have settled down and have really hit a groove.

My tank will be a year old next month. Do you think I should just wait it out?

[jda]

I know that nobody wants to hear this, but a tank is not fully cycled usually until a year at the earliest. It can be longer if you inhibit the last (and most important part) of the cycle, which is turning NO3 into N gas. This can take a LOT longer if you used dry rock or otherwise stripped the NO3 and PO4 with organic carbon or GFO. This needs to happen including some ugly times with some dinos, cyano and hair algae - a stable tank will get past this with solid live rock (and sand), routine water changes and patience.

A SPS tank is as mature as it needs to be when everything is covered with coralline (I mean covered like you hate purple with a vengeance), you have pods everywhere and the shaded parts of your rocks are covered in sponges.

[malx]

Originally Posted by jda

I know that nobody wants to hear this, but a tank is not fully cycled usually until a year at the earliest. It can be longer if you inhibit the last (and most important part) of the cycle, which is turning NO3 into N gas. This can take a LOT longer if you used dry rock or otherwise stripped the NO3 and PO4 with organic carbon or GFO. This needs to happen including some ugly times with some dinos, cyano and hair algae - a stable tank will get past this with solid live rock (and sand), routine water changes and patience.

A SPS tank is as mature as it needs to be when everything is covered with coralline (I mean covered like you hate purple with a vengeance), you have pods everywhere and the shaded parts of your rocks are covered in sponges.

All good points. I do not have much coraline algae. I'm trough my other phases. I do see lots of pods. Your advice is fine, if you think my tank is still maturing that gives me some hope.

What I'm thinking of doing is pulling all dead coral and just continuing on. Maybe ditching ZEOvit is a bit harsh but I still got no clue what is going on.


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[jda]

I don't think that ditching Zeo is harsh. I think that it is smart. I think that Zeo and the other similar products are, at best, a method for the established and experienced to get a short-lived boost out of their tank. Mostly, I think that the boost comes from a renewed interest and not so much the products since most still have the boost after they quit. I do not think that it is a good method for a new tank. It does not seem like you gave Zeo a half-azzed effort... if it is not working, then what more do you need to know? Spend the money on some extra IO (or salt of your choosing) and change more water and you will get farther, IMO.

Will your tank keep NO3 at zero if you stop dosing everything else? That is the next question that I think needs answered. The really stable SPS tanks will do this if they have sand and most of the BB ones will too. People overlook it, but it is an important step.

There is always hope.

[malx]

Originally Posted by jda

I don't think that ditching Zeo is harsh. I think that it is smart. I think that Zeo and the other similar products are, at best, a method for the established and experienced to get a short-lived boost out of their tank. Mostly, I think that the boost comes from a renewed interest and not so much the products since most still have the boost after they quit. I do not think that it is a good method for a new tank. It does not seem like you gave Zeo a half-azzed effort... if it is not working, then what more do you need to know? Spend the money on some extra IO (or salt of your choosing) and change more water and you will get farther, IMO.

Will your tank keep NO3 at zero if you stop dosing everything else? That is the next question that I think needs answered. The really stable SPS tanks will do this if they have sand and most of the BB ones will too. People overlook it, but it is an important step.

There is always hope.

I think the first step could be to shut off my ZEO reactor and turn up my Algae reactor which I could hope would off set the nitrate boost if any. After I could confirm that nutrients are similar. I'd add more live rock to the sump. Then after that, stop dosing the ZEO products. I don't know. I asked the ZEO guys how to back track. I'm so upset with all of this right now.


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[mike810]

I tried zeo and it didn't work for me. The notion of stripping the water with zeo products then adding it back in did nothing for my corals. I think it stripped too much from the water starving my corals. I rather just feed my fish, have nutrients in the water for the corals instead of trying to supply nutrients thru little blue bottles. Not saying zeo doesn't work, it just didn't work for me. You can still use some of their products without going full zeo with the rocks and all.

[sfdan]

In the post you linked to, you said your alk ranged from 8 - 8.9 over a 2 week period. My tank is a little bigger but I can dial in my calcium reactor so my alkalinity is rock stable and doesn't move at all day to day. My general feeling about SPS is that if you have enough flow and stable alkalinity, your corals will be happy. I don't want to discount tank age, but you got to keep your parameters stable to let your stuff thrive as your tank matures.

What alk test kit are you using? Is it bouncing around from 8 to 8.9 or is it gradually rising and falling?

You also need to be careful with water changes that are too large since a lot salt mixes will have alk that is much higher than 8-9.

[jda]

Originally Posted by malx

I think the first step could be to shut off my ZEO reactor and turn up my Algae reactor which I could hope would off set the nitrate boost if any. After I could confirm that nutrients are similar. I'd add more live rock to the sump. Then after that, stop dosing the ZEO products. I don't know. I asked the ZEO guys how to back track. I'm so upset with all of this right now.

The whole point of letting the tank mature is to let the nitrate climb and provide food/fuel for the bacteria to grow and settle in. If you bring a reactor online, then you will just delay this.

I would stop everything and let the tank go. Feed your fish and let nature take over... it will do a better job than a human. If it will stay at zero all on it's own, then your cycle is done. If not, then you might have a bit longer with some dinos and cyano, but yes it needs to mature more. In either case, don't do anything to help it.

Once your tank is super mature and it cannot handle nitrate or phosphate anymore as you stock, then this is where you put some chaeto or GFO online. Not every tank needs this. If I grew chaeto, my corals would starve - I have .1 N and 1 or 2 on the Hannah ULR P checker (the actual number), so no need to go down any more. Chaeto and GFO have become more common as folks use barebottom tanks and dry/dead rock which make it really hard for the tank to denitrify it's self putting the burdon on the reefer. "Cute" aquascapes can also not denitrify well since they don't use much rock. Before this, nearly nobody had nitrate issues, but phosphate could become an issue if people slacked off on their maintenance.

How much rock do you have? Do you have sand? Got a pic handy?

[Hentz]

Honestly bro, this is one of the reasons I'm stopping ZEO. I want to let nature take its course in my tank, like I was telling you at your house.

As of right now, my ZEOreactor is off, especially since I probably killed the bacteria on the stones anyways. Tank isn't in its prime, thats for sure.... But I've been feeding normal and slowing on my carbon dosing with ZEOstart as well. It's thriving, better than it was just a week ago at my in-laws.

jda's comment makes me not even want to setup my chaeto reactor until my tank needs it. Was planning on adding it after cycle.

[malx]

Originally Posted by Hentz

Honestly bro, this is one of the reasons I'm stopping ZEO. I want to let nature take its course in my tank, like I was telling you at your house.

As of right now, my ZEOreactor is off, especially since I probably killed the bacteria on the stones anyways. Tank isn't in its prime, thats for sure.... But I've been feeding normal and slowing on my carbon dosing with ZEOstart as well. It's thriving, better than it was just a week ago at my in-laws.

jda's comment makes me not even want to setup my chaeto reactor until my tank needs it. Was planning on adding it after cycle.

This is a great idea. I'm going to actually ditch the ZEO rocks as Step 1. I love the ZEO products I think they are great as they work really well, but I think I can simplify my system. Step 1 is going to be to remove the ZEO reactor and the rocks and add extra fresh live rock to the sump and remove phosphates / nitrates by turning up my Cheato reactor.

[malx]

Originally Posted by jda

The whole point of letting the tank mature is to let the nitrate climb and provide food/fuel for the bacteria to grow and settle in. If you bring a reactor online, then you will just delay this.

I would stop everything and let the tank go. Feed your fish and let nature take over... it will do a better job than a human. If it will stay at zero all on it's own, then your cycle is done. If not, then you might have a bit longer with some dinos and cyano, but yes it needs to mature more. In either case, don't do anything to help it.

Once your tank is super mature and it cannot handle nitrate or phosphate anymore as you stock, then this is where you put some chaeto or GFO online. Not every tank needs this. If I grew chaeto, my corals would starve - I have .1 N and 1 or 2 on the Hannah ULR P checker (the actual number), so no need to go down any more. Chaeto and GFO have become more common as folks use barebottom tanks and dry/dead rock which make it really hard for the tank to denitrify it's self putting the burdon on the reefer. "Cute" aquascapes can also not denitrify well since they don't use much rock. Before this, nearly nobody had nitrate issues, but phosphate could become an issue if people slacked off on their maintenance.

How much rock do you have? Do you have sand? Got a pic handy?

My aquascape is minimal but I do have a lot of live rock in the sump. Ignore the container next to the tank I was making a joke here:
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...2e&oe=59CBAF15

Can you tell me more about Chaeto and what happened when you brought some online?

[malx]

Originally Posted by sfdan

In the post you linked to, you said your alk ranged from 8 - 8.9 over a 2 week period. My tank is a little bigger but I can dial in my calcium reactor so my alkalinity is rock stable and doesn't move at all day to day. My general feeling about SPS is that if you have enough flow and stable alkalinity, your corals will be happy. I don't want to discount tank age, but you got to keep your parameters stable to let your stuff thrive as your tank matures.

What alk test kit are you using? Is it bouncing around from 8 to 8.9 or is it gradually rising and falling?

You also need to be careful with water changes that are too large since a lot salt mixes will have alk that is much higher than 8-9.

It gradually rises and falls. I use the Hannah Alk Checker and I even have the calibration for it so I know it's reading .2dkh too low.

[Hentz]

Originally Posted by malx

This is a great idea. I'm going to actually ditch the ZEO rocks as Step 1. I love the ZEO products I think they are great as they work really well, but I think I can simplify my system. Step 1 is going to be to remove the ZEO reactor and the rocks and add extra fresh live rock to the sump and remove phosphates / nitrates by turning up my Cheato reactor.

Good. I've been running my rocks on 3 hours on/off instead of full on for the past month and a half.
I love the products also. You've seen my last tank, ZEOvit worked absolutely amazing. But after reading more and more and doing a lot of digging into bacteria, I'd rather have a tank ran by natural bacteria instead of ZEOvit stripping the water.

My goal for my upgrade is natural as possible. I want vibrant acropora with the good growth.

[malx]

Originally Posted by Hentz

Good. I've been running my rocks on 3 hours on/off instead of full on for the past month and a half.
I love the products also. You've seen my last tank, ZEOvit worked absolutely amazing. But after reading more and more and doing a lot of digging into bacteria, I'd rather have a tank ran by natural bacteria instead of ZEOvit stripping the water.

My goal for my upgrade is natural as possible. I want vibrant acropora with the good growth.

My rocks have been 2hrs on and 2hrs off for 3 months. Last change I made is I reduced the rocks by 1/2. Next change I am going to make is putting in almost no flow for 2 weeks. If no nutrient spike, they come out!

[swk]

Originally Posted by malx

My rocks have been 2hrs on and 2hrs off for 3 months. Last change I made is I reduced the rocks by 1/2. Next change I am going to make is putting in almost no flow for 2 weeks. If no nutrient spike, they come out!

I would EXPECT a nutrient spike but don't worry about nutrients. They are not bad guys. My tank that I posted pics of above runs at 10-15 no3 and .1-.2 po4

[malx]

Originally Posted by swk

I would EXPECT a nutrient spike but don't worry about nutrients. They are not bad guys. My tank that I posted pics of above runs at 10-15 no3 and .1-.2 po4

Ok thanks for the tip!

[swk]

Originally Posted by malx

Ok thanks for the tip!

You bet. If they do spike, give it some time for new strains to balance things out and see where they land after a couple months. If you have an issue with where they are then you can do some extra water changes.

Again, try not to equate nutrients with being bad. It's not the case.

[lynchmob3000]

The only thing that will probably happen is your corals will darken and probably alk consumption will drop a bit at first. As long as this is compensated you will probably enjoy what's about to happen! Gl


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[malx]

Originally Posted by lynchmob3000

The only thing that will probably happen is your corals will darken and probably alk consumption will drop a bit at first. As long as this is compensated you will probably enjoy what's about to happen! Gl


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Yeah well what I am doing now isn't working! LOL

[jda]

Let me try this one last time... and I will be more emphatic before I bow out. You will not be able to be in charge of this and have it work out. If you must control the nutrients on your own, then you will fail and somebody will be getting a good deal soon on all of your really nice stuff.

Stop everything that you are doing but water changes and feeding your fish. The N and P need to rise to later fall. You will need to have cyano, diatoms and the ugly phases to get past them. Bringing anything online to keep them low will just keep you on the same path that you are on now where you are not going to be able to do what nature has learned to do so well.

Just let go for two or three months. Then, test some water and see where you are at.

Adding extra real live rock to the sump is a good idea, BTW.

[jda]

Originally Posted by malx

Can you tell me more about Chaeto and what happened when you brought some online?

I don't use chaeto on my SPS tanks. I have before on my FOWLRs. The SPS tank will handle the N and P all on it's own and the chaeto would take the few critical bit of nutrients that I have from my SPS.

Chaeto is a very effective N and P exporter. However, it is not necessary on every tank. It would be a disaster on my SPS tank. On my past FOWLRs it was a welcome addition that kept N and P in check and provided a great place to house new fish and grow mysid shrimp and pods.